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Haxfar Portlaind
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Posted - 2010.03.04 12:22:00 -
[31]
Didn't the devs say that pirate faction ships are supposed to be better than T2 ships, at the expense cost?
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.03.04 13:04:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Grimpak on 04/03/2010 13:05:14
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Grimpak and that's a bad thing because....?
...it will still get away or simply wont engage such a threat.
I say it again: and that's a bad thing because....?
Because everything needs a hard counter.
so you bring ship Y that will make ship X sitting pretty at range doing nothing but trying to kill you with his stare.
tbh, people should get out of that mould of "ship to be countered must be killed!!11one", when for defence gangs all that they need is preventing it for doing jack ****.
oh and don't come with the "he might not kill today but will kill tomorrow!!11one".
what if you do the same thing tomorrow? and the day after? and the following day? He'll have just an expensive way of sitting pretty and run away without doing damage all the time.
you scared his ship away, he didn't get a kill, you achieved the objective. killing the ship is just a bonus. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.04 13:24:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Grimpak so you bring ship Y that will make ship X sitting pretty at range doing nothing but trying to kill you with his stare.
Not good enough, and doesn't fulfil the requirement: everything needs a hard counter.
If it can kill all X:s and avoid all non-X:s, the only remotely balanced thing is to make sure X = "nothing", and even that is a stretch. Anything else, and it is inherently flawed and needs to be fixed. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.03.04 15:31:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Grimpak on 04/03/2010 15:35:51
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Grimpak so you bring ship Y that will make ship X sitting pretty at range doing nothing but trying to kill you with his stare.
Not good enough, and doesn't fulfil the requirement: everything needs a hard counter.
If it can kill all X:s and avoid all non-X:s, the only remotely balanced thing is to make sure X = "nothing", and even that is a stretch. Anything else, and it is inherently flawed and needs to be fixed.
does it really need a hard counter?
as far as I'm aware of, it's what CCP wanted, pirate faction ships being superior to T2.
if any, it's pretty much every other pirate faction frigate that needs one more nudge
also, the problem is how "thin" the line between overpowered and useless is, specially on the faction frigates.
if you balanced the dramiel to have similar performance equal to any combat interceptor out there, why would you get a dramiel in the first place and not any of the combat interceptors that cost less and have more availability? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.03.04 15:48:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 04/03/2010 15:35:51
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Grimpak so you bring ship Y that will make ship X sitting pretty at range doing nothing but trying to kill you with his stare.
Not good enough, and doesn't fulfil the requirement: everything needs a hard counter.
If it can kill all X:s and avoid all non-X:s, the only remotely balanced thing is to make sure X = "nothing", and even that is a stretch. Anything else, and it is inherently flawed and needs to be fixed.
does it really need a hard counter?
as far as I'm aware of, it's what CCP wanted, pirate faction ships being superior to T2.
if any, it's pretty much every other pirate faction frigate that needs one more nudge
also, the problem is how "thin" the line between overpowered and useless is, specially on the faction frigates.
if you balanced the dramiel to have similar performance equal to any combat interceptor out there, why would you get a dramiel in the first place and not any of the combat interceptors that cost less and have more availability?
I agree with you here, I like the fact that there are "elite" Frigs in game...finally, I think there are 3 other faction frigs that need to stand out more but...
The Point of the thread is, yes interceptors are fast but is going ~6000 to ~7000 ( before overheat )game breaking for them, I for one think it would bring a lot of fun back to flying small ships.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.04 15:55:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Grimpak does it really need a hard counter?
Yes. Everything does.
It should be noted, though, that I'm talking about the general principle – not the Dramiel as such (even though it seems to be the OMGZNERF!!-of-the-month target).
Quote: as far as I'm aware of, it's what CCP wanted, pirate faction ships being superior to T2.
Yes, but there's a difference between "being superior" and "completely replacing" – by the looks of it, the problem with the Dramiel is that it does the latter. It all comes back to the question of giving the various ships proper roles (something that CCP is notoriously bad at doing). As long as you figure out the role, the act of balancing can become very very easy…
So the question here is: is the Dramiel supposed to fill the role of a "+1 Interceptor" or as something else? If it's supposed to be the interceptor role, why does it have the combat capacity everyone claims it has? If it's something else, why does it have interceptor-like capabilities? Stick it in a role and make sure it's better than T2 at that… and then it serves a purpose, even if it's crap at something else.
That's where things have gone wrong in many of the buffs we've seen: the basic idea of T2 is (supposed to be) that they're more specialised, so a better-than-T2 ship is probably best balanced by being even more specialised… but that requires a well-defined role to specialise the ship in. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Rivur'Tam
X10 PUNISHM4NT
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Posted - 2010.03.04 16:07:00 -
[37]
Is every one high or something frigs are fast engough a including cepters they can escape from anything bigger and are impossible to hit with a larger ship unless its fitted just for frig killing.
And dramiel is a faction ship 3x the cost of a cepter why should it not be better just because it requires less training.
people just want something to whine about ... where is my sig somebody stole my vid watch now
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.03.04 16:07:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 04/03/2010 15:57:05
Originally by: Grimpak does it really need a hard counter?
Yes. Everything does.
It should be noted, though, that I'm talking about the general principle ū not the Dramiel as such (even though it seems to be the OMGZNERF!!-of-the-month target).
Quote: as far as I'm aware of, it's what CCP wanted, pirate faction ships being superior to T2.
Yes, but there's a difference between "being superior" and "completely replacing" ū by the looks of it, the problem with the Dramiel is that it does the latter. It all comes back to the question of giving the various ships proper roles (something that CCP is notoriously bad at doing). As long as you figure out the role, the act of balancing can become very very easyą
So the question here is: is the Dramiel supposed to fill the role of a "+1 Interceptor" or as something else? If it's supposed to be the interceptor role, why does it have the combat capacity everyone claims it has? If it's something else, why does it have interceptor-like capabilities? Stick it in a role and make sure it's better than T2 at thatą and then it serves a purpose, even if it's crap at something else.
That's where things have gone wrong in many of the buffs we've seen: the basic idea of T2 is (supposed to be) that they're more specialised, so a better-than-T2 ship is probably best balanced by being even more specialisedą but that requires a well-defined role to specialise the ship in. This lets the T2 ship be better outside the specialisation of the faction ship, and thus still let it have a place in the game, whereas the faction ship is the very apex of the role ū nothing can beat it at its game ū giving it a place in the game as well.
then the fastest way to do it really seems to trash all faction ships.
I mean, considering CCP's attempt (and failing) at getting more roles for ships to cover, in addition to their sledgehammer approach to nerfs, the only way I can see faction frigates to go is the way of the dodo, since they will either stay overpowered, or just be expensive and glorified pixels for you to flaunt on the undocking point of the starter stations ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.03.04 16:22:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Grimpak then the fastest way to do it really seems to trash all faction ships.
Nah, the fastest and best way is to nerf dramiel.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.03.04 16:26:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Grimpak then the fastest way to do it really seems to trash all faction ships.
Nah, the fastest and best way is to nerf dramiel.
nerfing the dram, by CCP's standarts, means transforming it into an expensive T1 ship.
fastest way, but not the best.
the best ways are either boost the other faction frigates to the level of the dram, or get rid of them alltogether. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.03.04 17:21:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Grimpak ...
Even if dram were only 'as fast' as most inties, it will still be much better than them. 'Just because' of mse buffer, neut, dualprop, acs and drones.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.04 17:51:00 -
[42]
Ccp reacts to what the players do. Never fear we players will force a reaction from ccp concerning the dram and cyn. As far as interceptors... No to buffing them in my opinion as it will lead to a resemblance of the olden days where they were stupid if speed or a speed related stat is buffed.
Ccp shall balance! |
Bronson Hughes
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
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Posted - 2010.03.04 17:52:00 -
[43]
Does the fact that the Dramiel can fly faster than most 'Ceptors mean that pirate faction frigates are the fastest class of ship? Nope. 'Ceptors are already the fastest class of ship in EvE, but that doesn't mean that there can't be individual exceptions. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.03.04 18:28:00 -
[44]
You guys are just so enraged you can't see anything past the "Evil Dramiel"
I'd hate to see what would happen if CCP got off their asses and buffed Assault Frigs...
maybe this is why they wont...keep the status quo so you will not have to change your play style
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.04 19:19:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jovialmadness Ccp reacts to what the players do. Never fear we players will force a reaction from ccp concerning the dram and cyn.
Ccp shall balance!
Just like they did with Tachs? I dunno. CCP drags their feel a lot, usually years.
That's first complaint I've heard about the Cynabal, by the way. It's quick and agile, but doesn't seem to be doing anything the Vagabond wasn't already...what's the issue beside the parity in price between the two?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.03.04 19:34:00 -
[46]
Originally by: DustiX
Originally by: MoeJoe Green Soo... Nerf the Dramiel or buff the interceptors?
or make interceptors cost 70-80 mil per hull
If the price of the Dramiel had anything to do with the construction cost, you might have a point.
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Grimpak
Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.03.04 20:18:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Grimpak ...
Even if dram were only 'as fast' as most inties, it will still be much better than them. 'Just because' of mse buffer, neut, dualprop, acs and drones.
you really think CCP would just nerf the dram's speed? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.04 20:45:00 -
[48]
Uh...
I think we are missing ze point here. Ccp doesn't care if it's a perfectly acceptable ship or mod or whatever. Ccp only cares if it's overused. The dram can be expensive/cheap, broken or playable...doesn't matter. Historically whatever a majority of the player base is utilizing in a disproprtionate way gets nailed wit da bat. |
Braitai
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.03.04 23:43:00 -
[49]
They could nerf the dram to be the same speed as the firetail. It would have the same tank, same speed, same options for duelprop/neuts, but still do 50-100% more damage.
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ABITA
Gallente Knights Of Divinity Reckoning.
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Posted - 2010.03.04 23:49:00 -
[50]
I miss roaming around in Sabre, going 14000+ ms...
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.03.06 23:03:00 -
[51]
Originally by: ABITA I miss roaming around in Sabre, going 14000+ ms...
Did you read that part where i said "not pre-nano nerf speeds"
of course you did'nt
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Morganta
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Posted - 2010.03.07 02:25:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Meeko Atari
Originally by: ABITA I miss roaming around in Sabre, going 14000+ ms...
Did you read that part where i said "not pre-nano nerf speeds"
of course you did'nt
Because missing it means he is ignoring you want wants it right?
I think the idea of a pirate interceptor is cool and should be the fastest... Historically, pirate vessels have always been about generating opportunity through superior speed.
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Kazuros
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Posted - 2010.03.08 15:48:00 -
[53]
Lets not forget the intended role and stats of an interceptor. Interceptors warp 50-100% faster than the Dramiel, before rigs. They get a range bonus to points and scams. This means that they are capable of beating the majority of ships to a stargate, jumping ahead of them and tackling them on the other side, while staying out of weapons range. While the Dramiel is fast and has teeth, it cant do that. Sure it might be able to outfly an interceptor on a single gate engagement, but it doesn't fill the role of an interceptor.
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Meeko Atari
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Posted - 2010.03.08 16:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Morganta
Originally by: Meeko Atari
Originally by: ABITA I miss roaming around in Sabre, going 14000+ ms...
Did you read that part where i said "not pre-nano nerf speeds"
of course you did'nt
Because missing it means he is ignoring you want wants it right?
I think the idea of a pirate interceptor is cool and should be the fastest... Historically, pirate vessels have always been about generating opportunity through superior speed.
Ignoring what has already been addressed in a post is just pure laziness, If you can't take the time to read then don't post.
I don't expect people to agree I just wanted a discussion about something I see as an oversight in ship class roles.
And just out of curiosity, Where is the documentation that states that the Dramiel is a pirate "interceptor"
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