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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:04:00 -
[1]
Hi folks, I haven;t posted on the forums before - I usually stick to the tweetfleet (http://twitter.com/SawnAconite) but this discussion seems to have outgrown the 140 character limit so I thought I would post here.
Anyway, since the insurance system is such a bone of contention in new eden myself and some of my corpmates were thinking we might try and improve things by offering our own insurance.
We are planning to offer a much more flexible system which we think will be more appealing than the standard insurance for a number of people. We will be offering :
* Insurance for T2 ships * Insurance which covers modules and cargo * Insurance which covers certain areas (empire-only, lo-sec, nullsec etc) * No-claims bonus
This means that you haulers could insure their ships and cargo, and Hulk pilots could effectively insure themselves against ganking - both of which aren't possible in the in-built insurance system.
So, I was hoping to start a discussion about this and see if anyone would be interested in this kind of service?
Comments, questions, suggestions all welcome
Cheers
Sawn
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baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:06:00 -
[2]
no.
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Doctor Cal'torien
Gallente The Vikings of the Black Sea
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:07:00 -
[3]
sounds like a great start to a perfect scam. Tip: don't cut and run until you have many multiple pilots insured, also if this isn't a scam someone's gonna use it to scam you...
that's my 5 1/2 cents -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Originally by: CCP Shadow
Originally by: Doctor Cal'torien in before the "OP lacks content + witty dialogue" from Shadow
*click* You just did it for me.
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Matalino
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:10:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Doctor Cal'torien if this isn't a scam someone's gonna use it to scam you...
This!
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Balsakian McGiggles
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:13:00 -
[5]
I'd be extremely interested in such a policy. I understand that there isn't any guarantee that it's not a scam, but I figure it would be worth a shot! It definitely would make me more willing to fly those expensive T2 ships!
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Viktrus
Caldari Mine 'N' Refine The Unforgiven Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Balsakian McGiggles I'd be extremely interested in such a policy. I understand that there isn't any guarantee that it's not a scam, but I figure it would be worth a shot! It definitely would make me more willing to fly those expensive T2 ships!
Greatness comes at a risk. If you cannot afford to lose it, simply don't fly it. This has always been a great aspect of EVE. Whats the fun of blowing up some punk if he gets all his money back?
Last thing i want to see is a bunch of giddy people flying marauders in PVP because they can afford to lose it now.. there'd be no point in flying anything but T2, and new players would be at an even further disadvantage, which is discouraging.
Theres my 2 cents.
-Vik |
Tulisin Dragonflame
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:28:00 -
[7]
The only reason we have insurance in EVE is because the NPC insurance company are idiots.
You could possibly insure T2 mission-running ships, because those are a closer allegory to real-life goods where you're trying to risk them as little as possible.
But insuring the vast majority of ships in EVE would be like insuring a monster truck driver on his way to a rally. It just doesn't make sense.
It has been tried before, and is workable on paper, but there'd be so much overhead it probably wouldn't be worth it.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Punic Corp.
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:29:00 -
[8]
This can't work in Eve. Anyone trying to do it is either a scammer or about to get scammed.
And even if you somehow could enforce honesty on both sides, it still could never work profitably. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.' |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Viktrus
Originally by: Balsakian McGiggles I'd be extremely interested in such a policy. I understand that there isn't any guarantee that it's not a scam, but I figure it would be worth a shot! It definitely would make me more willing to fly those expensive T2 ships!
Greatness comes at a risk. If you cannot afford to lose it, simply don't fly it. This has always been a great aspect of EVE. Whats the fun of blowing up some punk if he gets all his money back?
Last thing i want to see is a bunch of giddy people flying marauders in PVP because they can afford to lose it now.. there'd be no point in flying anything but T2, and new players would be at an even further disadvantage, which is discouraging.
Theres my 2 cents.
-Vik
They guy is offering the service not ccp
Which means he or someone else is going to get bitten hard.
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Caroline Cosmos
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: baltec1 no.
Hell no.
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:45:00 -
[11]
This gets brought up in Market Discussions twice a month. It is a waste of space.
Here's a suggestion: go look at how insurance companies in real life make profit. The act of insuring is almost never profitable. ... ---Herein lay a detailed description of how insurance companies essentially are big liquidity vehicles, that they make money off being able to invest cash on hand, and liquid cash is very much not the problem in Eve, investment opportunities are. Honestly, I'm sick of explaining it, and I doubt you'd care or get it.--- ... THIS IS AN AWESOME IDEA AND NO ONE HAS THOUGHT OF IT! GOOD LUCK DEAR SIR OF AWESOME! IT WILL WORK PERFECTLY!
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.11 20:55:00 -
[12]
I don't quite see the attraction of the suggested service.
I can get pretty much the same result by just using the SCC, buying back-up ships off the market and/or every now and then roll an alt and hand out millions in newbie corp chat… so why bother with this? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Doctor Cal'torien sounds like a great start to a perfect scam. Tip: don't cut and run until you have many multiple pilots insured, also if this isn't a scam someone's gonna use it to scam you...
that's my 5 1/2 cents
Yeah I appreciate what you are saying - trust is a valuable commodity in new eden! One suggestion from the tweetfleet folks was to use a trusted middle-man (someone like Chribba for example.)
Obviously fraud is a major issue but this is no different to insurance in the real world - it can hopefully be adressed by having higher premiums for newer users (perhaps not insuring brand new accounts at all) and obviously increased premiums following claims.
I think the final point would be to have an excess in the same way as real world insurance meaning that any user would have to pay an agreed amount of ISK up front before the insurance payout kicked in. This should also stop people being too reckless e.g. auto-pilotting through losec simply because they were insured!
Cheers
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Jmarr Hyrgund
The Bastards
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:11:00 -
[14]
There are a few problems with this. The biggest one is getting people to believe that it isn't a scam. the rest are technical in nature.
Real life insurance companies rely on less people claiming than paying the premiums. In EVE, eventually everyone is going to claim.
Real life insurance companies have large portfolios of assets of varying types backing them up (Look at AIG, they did it wrong, had a load of backup assets that were ultimately worthless and went bust) There simply isn't the kind of finanical system available in new eden to create these assets to give the Insurance company a solid base of capital to work from.
How would you go about calculating risk? I'd love to let an actuary loose in EVE's high risk world but it would be a full time job and they don't come cheap (in RL money).
Insurance isn't simply a case of betting against someone getting their ship blown up (if it was you'd be onto a loser every time). Its incredibly complex and the systems aren't in place to support it.
Pirate - Blogger - Rifter Pilot |
Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:16:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Viktrus
Originally by: Balsakian McGiggles I'd be extremely interested in such a policy. I understand that there isn't any guarantee that it's not a scam, but I figure it would be worth a shot! It definitely would make me more willing to fly those expensive T2 ships!
Greatness comes at a risk. If you cannot afford to lose it, simply don't fly it. This has always been a great aspect of EVE. Whats the fun of blowing up some punk if he gets all his money back?
Last thing i want to see is a bunch of giddy people flying marauders in PVP because they can afford to lose it now.. there'd be no point in flying anything but T2, and new players would be at an even further disadvantage, which is discouraging.
Theres my 2 cents.
-Vik
I think there has to always be an incentive not to be reckless as otherwise no insurance company could make money - increased premiums following losses and an excess would help to ensure that pilots didn't get silly with ships, but it would still provide safety in that you could in effect fly something you couldn't afford - even if that does break the first law of Eve!
Cheers
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Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame The only reason we have insurance in EVE is because the NPC insurance company are idiots.
You could possibly insure T2 mission-running ships, because those are a closer allegory to real-life goods where you're trying to risk them as little as possible.
But insuring the vast majority of ships in EVE would be like insuring a monster truck driver on his way to a rally. It just doesn't make sense.
It has been tried before, and is workable on paper, but there'd be so much overhead it probably wouldn't be worth it.
I take your point and I admit I don't know exactly how profitable a venture like this could be - I am more interested at this stage in how practical it would be and if anyone is interested in the service.
I think any ship is potentially insurable provided the terms are clear. For example you could insure a mission running ship with the clauses that it is only covered in high-sec and is only covered to loss via NPC rats. Conversely a cargo hauler could be covered for loss to other pilots but not NPCs and so on. Obviously the more complete the insurance the more expensive the premium, but I think it could work. It is this flexibility I feel the in-built system is lacking.
Cheers
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Doctor Cal'torien
Gallente The Vikings of the Black Sea
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:25:00 -
[17]
plus of course the, If I don't feel like paying out your insirance you can suck it premeum, and the: "I'm planning on suiciding it against miners" clause -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Originally by: CCP Shadow
Originally by: Doctor Cal'torien in before the "OP lacks content + witty dialogue" from Shadow
*click* You just did it for me.
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sawn Aconite
Originally by: Viktrus
Originally by: Balsakian McGiggles I'd be extremely interested in such a policy. I understand that there isn't any guarantee that it's not a scam, but I figure it would be worth a shot! It definitely would make me more willing to fly those expensive T2 ships!
Greatness comes at a risk. If you cannot afford to lose it, simply don't fly it. This has always been a great aspect of EVE. Whats the fun of blowing up some punk if he gets all his money back?
Last thing i want to see is a bunch of giddy people flying marauders in PVP because they can afford to lose it now.. there'd be no point in flying anything but T2, and new players would be at an even further disadvantage, which is discouraging.
Theres my 2 cents.
-Vik
I think there has to always be an incentive not to be reckless as otherwise no insurance company could make money - increased premiums following losses and an excess would help to ensure that pilots didn't get silly with ships, but it would still provide safety in that you could in effect fly something you couldn't afford - even if that does break the first law of Eve!
Cheers
You are talking out of your butt. Here is how successful insurance would work in EVE: joe pilot loses his deimos every 7 days. Sawn Aconite Awesome Insurance requires all joe pilots to pay out the price of a deimos for every 6 days of insured flying. Even this wouldn't work, because then only jill pilot, who knows she loses a ship every 5 days, will take the insurance.
I made a thread for you: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283262
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Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:28:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tippia I don't quite see the attraction of the suggested service.
I can get pretty much the same result by just using the SCC, buying back-up ships off the market and/or every now and then roll an alt and hand out millions in newbie corp chatà so why bother with this?
The service really is designed to appeal to people whose needs aren't covered by the existing insurance system. For example someone hauling a lot of valuable assets - because the existing insurance system doesn't cover cargo, only the ship, they have to stomach a big loss if they get ganked.
Similarly T2 pilots can't really insure their ships as the payout bears no relation to the cost of the ship (never mind fittings etc.) I think a user-run system could provide the flexibility to allow a solution to be tailored for varied playstyles. It certainly isn't for everyone, but I think it could work well for freighter pilots etc.
Cheers
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Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jmarr Hyrgund There are a few problems with this. The biggest one is getting people to believe that it isn't a scam. the rest are technical in nature.
Real life insurance companies rely on less people claiming than paying the premiums. In EVE, eventually everyone is going to claim.
Real life insurance companies have large portfolios of assets of varying types backing them up (Look at AIG, they did it wrong, had a load of backup assets that were ultimately worthless and went bust) There simply isn't the kind of finanical system available in new eden to create these assets to give the Insurance company a solid base of capital to work from.
How would you go about calculating risk? I'd love to let an actuary loose in EVE's high risk world but it would be a full time job and they don't come cheap (in RL money).
Insurance isn't simply a case of betting against someone getting their ship blown up (if it was you'd be onto a loser every time). Its incredibly complex and the systems aren't in place to support it.
I think slow and steady growth is the key to acquiring capital to cover losses but if you wanted to act as a rl insurance company you could sell the debt on to somebody else - that's not something I want to think about right now though!
One of my corpmates who originally suggested this idea has some experience with insurance of things like aircraft carriers etc in the real world which is probably more relevant to new eden in terms of calculating risk! That doesn't apply to every ship though - this is really designed more for things like marauders, exhumers, freighters etc which are likely to have a fairly long life.
Cheers
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Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Alice Celadon
You are talking out of your butt. Here is how successful insurance would work in EVE: joe pilot loses his deimos every 7 days. Sawn Aconite Awesome Insurance requires all joe pilots to pay out the price of a deimos for every 6 days of insured flying. Even this wouldn't work, because then only jill pilot, who knows she loses a ship every 5 days, will take the insurance.
I made a thread for you: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1283262
Thanks for your passionate replies, this is obviously something you are interested in so I appreciate the feedback. I think the system you are describing is somewhat simplistic though - I think people destroying ships at that rate would generate such high premiums that it would not be worth their while getting insurance at all quite quickly i.e. the premium coupled with the excess would be more than the cost of the ship. Meanwhile others would build up a reputation as a good risk, meaning lower premiums and a system which really works for them and gives them peace of mind when they are out and about in apace.
Cheers
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CCP Shadow
Caldari C C P
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:51:00 -
[22]
Thread moved to Market Discussions.
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Ji Sama
Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: CCP Shadow Thread moved to Market Discussions.
Thank you.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.03.11 21:55:00 -
[24]
I go fit 10x estamel's invul fields (real or fake doesn't matter) into my iteron one I go insure my cargo under your system I gank my ship with my alt/friend You pay me for 10x estamel's invulns via our insurance contract I loot the 5x estamel's that dropped from my wreck with my alt/friend I profit, you go broke. gg nore
You haven't even mentioned API yet so this reeks of fail. You might want to do your homework first.
Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose. |
Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 22:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Vaal Erit I go fit 10x estamel's invul fields (real or fake doesn't matter) into my iteron one I go insure my cargo under your system I gank my ship with my alt/friend You pay me for 10x estamel's invulns via our insurance contract I loot the 5x estamel's that dropped from my wreck with my alt/friend I profit, you go broke. gg nore
You haven't even mentioned API yet so this reeks of fail. You might want to do your homework first.
Now if we all gave up on something just because someone had failed before where would we be?
Seriously though thank you for your comment, this is exactly the sort of issue which springs to mind as soon as you think about any kind of insurance. I think though that it comes down to how well you are able to calculate risk and put a price on it - fraud is obviously a huge potential issue (as in rl) but I don't think it need be insurmountable. I guess it is more a question of whether you can ensure you have more good risks than bad on your books and those deemed a potentially bad risk are given more incentive to fly safe. For example as an unknown pilot who wants to insure an Iteron I for 100m to cover cargo your excess and premium would obviously be very high initially, then over time it would come down - you would effectively be paying initially to prove you are a good risk, as is the case in lots of types of insurance irl.
Cheers
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Celtic industries F A I L
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Posted - 2010.03.11 22:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ji Sama
Originally by: CCP Shadow Thread moved to Market Discussions.
Thank you.
I second that sentiment...
If you can't beat Eris, join her, hmmm that sounded so much better in my head - Cortes Don't be greedy :P -Cap |
Kat Bandeis
Caldari Wacom Research
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Posted - 2010.03.11 22:26:00 -
[27]
Would I like to have decent insurance on a few of my T2 ships? Hell yeah.
Am I going to "buy" that insurance from another player? You're kidding, right?
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Valemora
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Posted - 2010.03.11 22:28:00 -
[28]
For discussions sake, who says you have to insure the entire ship. Why not say we will insure 100m at 10m a week, anything over that limit is not covered. With a 5 week order upfront so 60m to start, so if they were scammed in week 1, yes they lose money, but the insurer could drop the client and after awhile you get those legit users. so if you fly a 200m isk ship, they could insure 100m of it, then if you scammed you would or could lose money rather than make it.
Yea removing people from scamming would be a pain
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Sawn Aconite
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Posted - 2010.03.11 23:40:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kat Bandeis Would I like to have decent insurance on a few of my T2 ships? Hell yeah.
Am I going to "buy" that insurance from another player? You're kidding, right?
Why not? You presumably bought the ship from another player, why not insure it with another player?
Cheers
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Drab Cane
Carbenadium Industries
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Posted - 2010.03.11 23:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sawn Aconite I think though that it comes down to how well you are able to calculate risk and put a price on it - fraud is obviously a huge potential issue (as in rl) but I don't think it need be insurmountable.
Excellent point - but assuming that 99% of policies will have a claim in the first period, how would one price the policies? -----------------------------------------------
- Who Dares, Wins
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