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CCP If you update the Scorpion, you cannot leave the rest out.

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Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:09:00 - [1] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 14/03/2010 16:11:34 Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 14/03/2010 16:09:45 If the Scorpion can be made symmetrical, then the Raven also needs work. Its horribly unbalanced wings need fixing. And the Moa is a joke of a ship. I wouldn't fly it even if it had 6 turrets and a damage bonus. The Osprey is just as bad. The biggest problem with these designs is they make no sense from a real life design standpoint. Most players will point out there is no air resistance in space so ships can be designed any way at all, and Caldari designs are supposed to be all about practicality and efficient usage of internal space. In reality, bilateral symmetry is still important in space as it is in an atmosphere because it is applied against mass. Engine thrust is most efficient when applied equally over the mass of an object. Any ship which has more mass on one side than the other should spin wildly around when the engines fire unless the engines are placed in specific locations over its mass and all firing at different strengths to maintain balance over the total mass of the ship. This system is incredibly complex and inefficient compared to applying even thrust from symmetrically placed engines on a symmetrical ship. So why are the Amarr and Gallente ships almost always symmetrical and are as "efficient" as Caldari ships in terms of game mechanics and balance? In the end, the only reason Caldari ships are malformed and fugly to begin with is because they were designed to be unorthodox by the CCP art team. They wanted to do something different and edgy that challenged conventional ideas about how spaceships should look. I'd have no problem with this unorthodox design aesthetic if CCP stuck to their guns about it. The oddly shaped Scorpion, Raven, Moa and Osprey are fine in my opinion if that's what CCP wanted to stick with. So why the Scorpion redesign at all? To bring it inline with the appearance of Tier 2 BCs, the Tier 3 BS and the T3 cruiser? This is what CCP said in the dev blog: Quote: This was the case with the renovated Scorpion. What worked before, didn't really work anymore, so the art director felt that he'd want to see the ship redesigned, in the new style for Caldari introduced by the Tech 3 ships during Apocrypha. He also felt that the current design lacked the feeling of weight that a battleship needed, that it felt rather flimsy. So the goal was to make a beefier, more aggressive-looking Scorpion. And a chance to redesign and possibly improve on one of the most iconic ships in the EVE universe was not something I was going to pass up. I don't think CCP can make that case for the Scorpion alone and then say all the other weirdly shaped Caldari ships are fine. If you want to update the look of an entire race to fit with the times(meaning the Rokh, Drake, Tengu and now the new Scorp), then you can't be half-assed about it. If the Scorpion began to stick out like a sore thumb, then eventually CCP must recognise the Raven, Moa and Osprey will too. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:11:00 - [2] EVE physics only begin to make sense when you put the simulation underwater, and even then any connection to reality is tenous. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:14:00 - [3] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 14/03/2010 16:14:31 Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 14/03/2010 16:14:03 Originally by: Professor Tarantula EVE physics only begin to make sense when you put the simulation underwater, and even then any connection to reality is tenous. I made that point already. Physics don't matter in Eve so you can design ships to be as weird and asymmetrical as you like, just as CCP did. But instead of sticking with that, they added new symmetrical ships to an asymmetrical race over the years and have now changed an old one to be symmetrical. If you're going to change your mind about a design aesthetic then you should do it for all ships, not just one. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Lork Niffle Gallente External Hard Drive	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:14:00 - [4] Had you read the entire blog you would have seen that CCP said they intend to update all ships over the next few expansions. ------------------------------------- The system issues man.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:19:00 - [5] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 14/03/2010 16:26:14 Originally by: Lork Niffle Had you read the entire blog you would have seen that CCP said they intend to update all ships over the next few expansions. I did read it, and they were referring to the new texture system being updated for all ships, nothing more. We cannot infer that they intend to redesign all ships to fit a new aesthetic just to implement this texture system. I came to this conclusion by examining their reasons for remodeling the Scorpion. They said this: Quote: What worked before, didn't really work anymore, so the art director felt that he'd want to see the ship redesigned, in the new style for Caldari introduced by the Tech 3 ships during Apocrypha. He also felt that the current design lacked the feeling of weight that a battleship needed, that it felt rather flimsy. So the goal was to make a beefier, more aggressive-looking Scorpion. They did not say they had to update the Scorpion model because the new texture system wouldn't work with the old one. Therefore it's not logical to conclude that the new system won't work with the current models for all other ships, necessitating a remodeling of them all. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Lork Niffle Had you read the entire blog you would have seen that CCP said they intend to update all ships over the next few expansions. They need to keep their filthy paws off of my beautiful Minmatar ships. I picked Minmatar for all of my characters just because of how freakin awesome the Rifter and Tempest look. Don't ever change that.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:27:00 - [7] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 14/03/2010 16:14:03 Originally by: Professor Tarantula EVE physics only begin to make sense when you put the simulation underwater, and even then any connection to reality is tenous. I made that point already. Physics don't matter in Eve so you can design ships to be as weird and asymmetrical as you like, just as CCP did. But instead of sticking with that, they added new symmetrical ships over the years and have now changed an old one to be symmetrical. If you're going to change your mind about a design aesthetic then you should do it for all ships, not just one. So if it's more a matter of creative direction than any scientific reason, wouldn't it be safe to assume they want some diversity instead of every single ship being symmetrical just to please a few hundred people with OCD? Them remodeling the scorp to make it more symmetrical doesn't mean they now have to do the same for every ship. It's a typical 'give an inch and they'll take a mile' situation. Let it go. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Professor Tarantula So if it's more a matter of creative direction than any scientific reason, wouldn't it be safe to assume they want some diversity instead of every single ship being symmetrical just to please a few hundred people with OCD? Them remodeling the scorp to make it more symmetrical doesn't mean they now have to do the same for every ship. It's a typical 'give an inch and they'll take a mile' situation. Let it go. I'm talking about consistency here. Of course they wanted diversity instead of every ship being symmetrical, I said that before. But if they decide a terribly asymmetrical ship just doesn't work from an aesthetic standpoint, then they cannot claim that other asymmetrical ships like the Raven, Moa and Osprey do work as they are now. They're just as oddly shaped as the old Scorpion. I'd argue the Moa is even moreso. I want CCP to be consistent in their design vision. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:34:00 - [9] Don't make everything symmetrical! I LOVE the asymmetrical ships, and I am very sad to see the scorpion being changed the way it is (the new textures are great though). Almost all ships in the game are symmetrical along some axis, lets keep some variety in there!
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:37:00 - [10] Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/03/2010 16:38:23 Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/03/2010 16:37:03 I think you're making too much of a big deal out of symmetry. It's not something a manufacturer has to choose to either do with all ships or not do. They can make a couple asymmetrical ones and then go back to making symmetrical ones, because it's not a big deal to them. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Professor Tarantula Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/03/2010 16:38:23 Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 14/03/2010 16:37:03 I think you're making too much of a big deal out of symmetry. It's not something a manufacturer has to choose to either do with all ships or not do. They can make a couple asymmetrical ones and then go back to making symmetrical ones, because it's not a big deal to them. I keep saying I don't mind if ships are not symmetrical. I don't even mind if CCP create new symmetrical ships for a race that previously had asymmetrical ones. But altering an asymmetrical ship to make it symmetrical is hypocritical in my opinion. If they change their minds about one, then they should do the same for all. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:47:00 - [12] Originally by: Arthur Frayn I keep saying I don't mind if ships are not symmetrical. I don't even mind if CCP create new symmetrical ships for a race that previously had asymmetrical ones. But altering an asymmetrical ship to make it symmetrical is hypocritical in my opinion. If they change their minds about one, then they should do the same for all. But they didn't change the model simply to make it more symmetrical. We don't even know if that word came up. Could have just asked the new guy to do up a model and liked the look of it without even a thought about symmetry. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Professor Tarantula But they didn't change the model simply to make it more symmetrical. We don't even know if that word came up. Could have just asked the new guy to do up a model and liked the look of it without even a thought about symmetry. Don't be so naive. They took a ship that was utterly asymmetrical and redesigned it in a way that is almost completely symmetrical. The change is too obviously focused on symmetry for you to claim that wasn't an issue with them. Hell, many players were asking for the Scorpion's left wing to be added for a long time, to make it symmetrical. Do you really think CCP had the ship changed to the way it is now without taking that into consideration? -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.14 16:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Don't be so naive. They took a ship that was utterly asymmetrical and redesigned it in a way that is almost completely symmetrical. The change is too obviously focused on symmetry for you to claim that wasn't an issue with them. Hell, many players were asking for the Scorpion's left wing to be added for a long time, to make it symmetrical. Do you really think CCP had the ship changed to the way it is now without taking that into consideration? While symmetry is clearly a giant factor for you, don't project that on CCP. You have no way of knowing how they feel about it, or if it was a factor in changing the Scorp. You might be surprised to know that not many people give it as much thought as you do. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Professor Tarantula While symmetry is clearly a giant factor for you, don't project that on CCP. You have no way of knowing how they feel about it, or if it was a factor in changing the Scorp. You might be surprised to know that not many people give it as much thought as you do. You really can't see the forest for the trees. Regardless of what I consider aesthetically beautiful, I would be happy with a Scorpion with one wing that was asymmetrical but still redesigned by CCP to look beefier, or whatever they wanted. Consistency of vision is a giant factor for me. Don't redesign a ship to look more like later symmetrical ships of the same line and then leave other old designs as they are. That's inconsistent. That's what I have a problem with. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Liang Nuren The Aduro Protocol Talon Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:15:00 - [16] Hey dude, chill the ** out. CCP will be updating all of the ships over the next few expansions - and I suspect more than a few models will be getting "fixed". -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:19:00 - [17] Ok, lets say i'm really big on ships having blinking lights, then they come out with a remodel that has many more blinking lights than the original. Would it be correct for me to assume this change was because they care as much as i do about blinking lights? Or would something like that more likely just be random chance based on the mood of the artist that day? My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:26:00 - [18] You're forgetting that they're only symmetrical one way, they're not symmetrical top and bottom. But tbh they look alot better this way than completely off their **** LSD-taking-icelandic-artist style. ------ 0800-LAG-A-NODE
Hibernator X	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:29:00 - [19] Edited by: Hibernator X on 14/03/2010 17:36:08 Originally by: Arthur Frayn I'm talking about consistency here. Of course they wanted diversity instead of every ship being symmetrical, I said that before. the holes in your theory are: the caracal the merlin the ferox the drake the rokh the badger the phoenix so there you have a capital ship, and indy, a frig, a cruiser, a battleship, and 2 battlecruisers that are ALL symmetrical. and the heron, the kestrel, and the cormorant are all quite close to being symmetrical. so now because they have one more symmetrical ship they all have to be symmetrical?? plus there is asymmetry to be found in every other races ships (though not as drastic i'll admit).
plastastic	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:37:00 - [20] from the same dev blog you quoted Originally by: dev blog And yes, this does mean that we will have to update every ship in the game, but it is a process that will be done over multiple expansions, starting with the Summer 2010 expansion. they are getting around to it so you can stop now
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:40:00 - [21] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 14/03/2010 17:41:24 Originally by: Professor Tarantula Ok, lets say i'm really big on ships having blinking lights, then they come out with a remodel that has many more blinking lights than the original. Would it be correct for me to assume this change was because they care as much as i do about blinking lights? Or would something like that more likely just be random chance based on the mood of the artist that day? Your analogy is incomplete. Let's say you're really big on ships having blinking lights. They have an old line of ships with few blinking lights, then they add a few more designs with a ton of blinking lights. Later they take an old design with few blinking lights and add a ton more blinking lights to it. It would absolutely be correct to assume the change was because they care as much as you do about blinking lights. Because you're a customer who wants them. Many players have stated they want Caldari ships to be more symmetrical. Seeing what customers want and giving it to them is far more likely than randomly changing something they don't want into something they do want without deciding beforehand to make it that way. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
GateScout	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Arthur Frayn ...they make no sense from a real life design standpoint. Buhahahahahahahahahahaha!
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:45:00 - [23] Someone needs to get out of the basement.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:47:00 - [24] Originally by: GateScout Originally by: Arthur Frayn ...they make no sense from a real life design standpoint. Buhahahahahahahahahahaha! Spoken like a true moron who didn't read everything else I said previously about how I know physics don't matter in Eve and that I'm fine with that. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Professor Tarantula Hedion University	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:50:00 - [25] I don't even care whether ships are symmetrical or not, and wouldn't be bothered if your crusade to eliminate asymmetrical ones is successful, so i don't have the passion you do for this topic, and am going to stop trying to reason with you. My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq.
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Shawna Gray Someone needs to get out of the basement. Someone needs to practice having a life instead of pointing out on the interwebs that someone else should get one. Originally by: Professor Tarantula I don't even care whether ships are symmetrical or not, and wouldn't be bothered if your crusade to eliminate asymmetrical ones is successful, so i don't have the passion you do for this topic, and am going to stop trying to reason with you. It's a crusade to eliminate inconsistency of vision, get it right. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
GateScout	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Spoken like a true moron who didn't read everything else I said previously about how I know physics don't matter in Eve and that I'm fine with that. Sadly, I did, and I regret I'll never get that time back.
Xyla Kador	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:55:00 - [28] Edited by: Xyla Kador on 14/03/2010 17:55:52 Originally by: Hibernator X Edited by: Hibernator X on 14/03/2010 17:36:08 Originally by: Arthur Frayn I'm talking about consistency here. Of course they wanted diversity instead of every ship being symmetrical, I said that before. the holes in your theory are: the caracal the merlin the ferox the drake the rokh the badger the phoenix so there you have a capital ship, and indy, a frig, a cruiser, a battleship, and 2 battlecruisers that are ALL symmetrical. and the heron, the kestrel, and the cormorant are all quite close to being symmetrical. so now because they have one more symmetrical ship they all have to be symmetrical?? plus there is asymmetry to be found in every other races ships (though not as drastic i'll admit). rokh actually isn't symmetrical preview it, it has a little thingy sticking out to the left when looking at it from the front </nitpick>
Arthur Frayn V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:57:00 - [29] Originally by: GateScout Sadly, I did, and I regret I'll never get that time back. Spoken like a true troll. I'm very happy that you lost that time. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Natonad	Posted - 2010.03.14 17:58:00 - [30] new dominix please

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