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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.03.15 09:33:00 -
[1]
Back in November of 2006, CCP introduced Salvaging into the game as the raw material source for rigs. Rigs have proven to be a boon for industrialists and combat pilots everywhere, providing even more powerful potential ship setups for mission running and PVP alike. Demand for rigs has been strong since their introduction and mission runners have been doing their best to fill that demand by salvaging almost every wreck they make. Since they're already within 2.5 kilometers of those wrecks, almost every popped ship has been looted by money hungry NPC killers since this change and the effect on the economy has been staggering.
Essentially, half or more of Eve's mineral economy is now fueled by mission runners refining or quick-selling their looted modules and minerals, making raw materials less and less valuable each day while marginalizing the efforts of miners and Tech 1 producers alike. There is essentially no point in manufacturing most Tech 1 modules due to the massive undervaluing of modules and raw materials from the torrent of mission loot.
What has been the result? Power creep. Battleships are so inexpensive that people buy and self-destruct them for insurance payouts. Battlecruisers are the smallest T1 ship anyone really flies for PVP because they are much better than cruisers and, after they're fit up with named or tech 2 gear, less than 50% more expensive. Over 350 Titans , thousands of Super Carriers and countless other capitals roam the skies thanks to abundant raw materials from countless man hours spent gathering and dumping their loot. With the upcoming insurance changes, the glass floor propping up prices will finally shatter, and ship prices will hit new lows. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a brand new Scorpion cost you more than 25 million ISK at some point.
It's clear that there is a massive and desperate need to reduce the flood of raw material. The best solution I've seen is to remove Tech 1, meta 0 loot from the Mission NPC loot tables. Mining will stop being marginalized by mission runners who gather raw material in quantities that dwarf typical harvesting efforts as a mere side effect of their large scale cash hoarding. "Lower end" and "Mid Range" minerals will stop being shunned by miners because the more limited contents of mid range and lower end minerals will be valuable again. Most importantly to anyone who has played the 0.0 game, losses will actually matter again.
There was a time when 10 dreadnoughts in an alliance meant that you were a God among Insects. Today, people will throw away dreadnoughts because the raw materials are so prevalent that industrialists sell them for insurance payout value. The explosion in power scaling needs to stop; in my opinion, it's ruining the game for everyone.
Please CCP, please remove high mineral content loot from the loot tables! It's of paramount importance for everyone who plays this game and will settle the complaints that have dogged the forums for the last 3 years in one fell swoop.
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Salmeria
Advanced Component Research Enterprise
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Posted - 2010.03.15 09:37:00 -
[2]
Drones really should drop things other then the compounds. Still keep them, just have a lot less drop. To compensate, have them drop regular mods as well. You could even have them be the only source of named drone upgrades. Also make them have every type of salvage in the salvaging tables.
Also, NPCs should no longer drop base t1 modules!
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Aeginave
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Posted - 2010.03.15 09:38:00 -
[3]
I dont see anything wrong in having rats drop t1 loot, the problem can be solved by reducing the reprocess payout i think.
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Armoured C
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.03.15 09:39:00 -
[4]
salvage isnt the problem
NPC loot is the problem
also the problem with you is that you posted in the wrong forum
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.15 09:40:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/03/2010 09:40:06 Of course that solution suits you as you don't mission run. Why not think of a solution that helps everyone? It's not hard to do, although CCP seem to struggle with it too.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.03.15 09:40:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 15/03/2010 09:43:10
Originally by: Armoured C salvage isnt the problem
NPC loot is the problem
also the problem with you is that you posted in the wrong forum
The point I was trying to make was that salvage has encouraged everyone who does so to also loot their wrecks - NPC loot is still the problem the OP addresses.
Originally by: Zartrader Edited by: Zartrader on 15/03/2010 09:40:06 Of course that solution suits you as you don't mission run. Why not think of a solution that helps everyone? It's not hard to do, although CCP seem to struggle with it too.
This idea doesn't help anyone except miners, which is a profession I also don't engage in. In fact, it will hurt everyone who likes to PVP in Tech 1 ships on the cheap because the intent is to make them expensive again. Eve is broken because ships that were supposed to be a big deal to own and fly are thrown away by people less than 3 months old because their worth has been invalidated by the existence of an insurance program and a deluge of minerals.
It helps everyone by making it harder to buy big ships. In my opinion, EVE has always been better at a smaller ship scale.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.15 09:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/03/2010 09:56:43
Well if this is about the Insurance changes the prices will crash anyway, PVP in Tech 1 will be just as viable. The Op is correct that the oversupply of minerals is the real issue which Insurance patches up. Now that crutch is being removed Ore supply needs to be addressed and of course Mission Runner Ore is a target, which is understandable from a miners point of view. I was suggesting other ways to do that as I think nerfing is always the last resort, it's better to balance with buffs (usually a new mechanic is best as no one has any emotional attachment to it)
Really EVE desperately needs a new Ore sink. I also hope that's in the new planetary interaction. If CCP does nothing but reduce Insurance payouts they can't be thinking straight. I can't imagine they would do that (maybe I'm naive)
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.03.15 10:52:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Tres Farmer on 15/03/2010 10:53:51 I would like to see the following:
1) no more T1 meta 0,1,2,3 or 4 loot from NPC or drones (no more minerals from mission loot)
2) T1 meta 1,2,3 and 4 blueprints get introduced and their building materials get adjusted, so that K-Space radar/magnetometric and ladar sites get a use again (see prices of components for invention interfaces for this.. it was a bad move from ccp to make them last FOREVER, thus saturating has become the norm.. create a new SINK for that STUFF and make more of it.. maybe even use salvaging parts for T1 meta 1-4, make it f**cking complex, as the introduction of sml/med rigs also decreased the need for salvage parts)
3) NPC and drones drop T1 meta 1,2,3 and 4 BPC .. maybe let drones drop component BPC needed for the T1 meta 1-4 BPC to build the stuff.. can be as complex as you want it.. the more complex, the better and the more people are involved
4) projection: - minerals from mission loot and drone poop will decrease - mineral prices will rise (miners yay!) - T1 meta 0 items need to be built again (indy starters/noobs have something to do) - T1 meta 1-4 BPC will offer the npc/drone hunter the income they lost due to 1) - K-Space exploration gets profitable again for stuff like Current Amplifiers or Force Cables - Eve gets another slice of industry for us to mangle with
PS: only con I see is the flood of BPC this will create for the DB (though I don't think this is a big deal when we look at what happens due to invention/reverse engineering already)
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Gala Chi
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Posted - 2010.03.15 10:55:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Gala Chi on 15/03/2010 10:55:01
Originally by: Evelgrivion Back in November of 2006, CCP introduced Salvaging into the game as the raw material source for rigs. Rigs have proven to be a boon for industrialists and combat pilots everywhere, providing even more powerful potential ship setups for mission running and PVP alike. Demand for rigs has been strong since their introduction and mission runners have been doing their best to fill that demand by salvaging almost every wreck they make. Since they're already within 2.5 kilometers of those wrecks, almost every popped ship has been looted by money hungry NPC killers since this change and the effect on the economy has been staggering.
While the effect on the economy might be big, we've got to see if it's a bad thing.
Quote: Essentially, half or more of Eve's mineral economy is now fueled by mission runners refining or quick-selling their looted modules and minerals, making raw materials less and less valuable each day while marginalizing the efforts of miners and Tech 1 producers alike. There is essentially no point in manufacturing most Tech 1 modules due to the massive undervaluing of modules and raw materials from the torrent of mission loot.
So, mining and T1 production doesn't pay out enough anymore. If that's good or bad, that's an opinion.
Quote: What has been the result? Power creep. Battleships are so inexpensive that people buy and self-destruct them for insurance payouts. Battlecruisers are the smallest T1 ship anyone really flies for PVP because they are much better than cruisers and, after they're fit up with named or tech 2 gear, less than 50% more expensive. Over 350 Titans , thousands of Super Carriers and countless other capitals roam the skies thanks to abundant raw materials from countless man hours spent gathering and dumping their loot. With the upcoming insurance changes, the glass floor propping up prices will finally shatter, and ship prices will hit new lows. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a brand new Scorpion cost you more than 25 million ISK at some point.
Personally I like cheap ships.
Quote: It's clear that there is a massive and desperate need to reduce the flood of raw material. The best solution I've seen is to remove Tech 1, meta 0 loot from the Mission NPC loot tables. Mining will stop being marginalized by mission runners who gather raw material in quantities that dwarf typical harvesting efforts as a mere side effect of their large scale cash hoarding. "Lower end" and "Mid Range" minerals will stop being shunned by miners because the more limited contents of mid range and lower end minerals will be valuable again. Most importantly to anyone who has played the 0.0 game, losses will actually matter again.
There is only a desperate need to stop flood of raw materials if you think having cheap ships is bad.
Quote: There was a time when 10 dreadnoughts in an alliance meant that you were a God among Insects. Today, people will throw away dreadnoughts because the raw materials are so prevalent that industrialists sell them for insurance payout value. The explosion in power scaling needs to stop; in my opinion, it's ruining the game for everyone.
It's ruining the game for the people who were flying a Dreadnought when most others couldn't. I don't think it's ruining the game for new Dreadnought owners.
Quote: Please CCP, please remove high mineral content loot from the loot tables! It's of paramount importance for everyone who plays this game and will settle the complaints that have dogged the forums for the last 3 years in one fell swoop.
It's only important for the people who mine. For all the rest, availability of cheap ships lets them play more instead of having to grind more to play that expensive ship if they dare to fly it at all because the risk of losing it was so big that you didn't even pvp with it.
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Mal Corvus
Caldari Caldari Naval Reserve
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Posted - 2010.03.15 11:13:00 -
[10]
Perhaps insurance prices / payouts should automatically alter themselves based on the market? Pay x now to insure your BS for a fair insurance amount in todays market. If the market value falls then bonus to you when you lose the ship. If the market booms then your payout no longer covers what it used to, at market. In that scenario you can wear the difference or take out a new policy at the current market values.
I reckon the core problem rests with the insurance system being static in cost / return while the rest of the market is fluid. Without insurance (supposedly) creating a minimum value for T1 ships the market becomes truly free.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.03.15 11:23:00 -
[11]
Overhauling Rogue Drones, hmm.... a quick brainstorm here:
- Reduce drops of drone poo and add components to the drops that can be manufactured into Integrated and Augmented modules requiring drone poo and maybe a base T1 module to build.
- Those modules could be around meta 3 and meta 4/T2 level, at least in some parts, there is no need to stick to human design philosophy on those modules, making them different from the rest can increase the justification for their existence and gives a reason for trading them.
- Drone Commanders drop components that can be made into 'Tamed' drones, replacing current Augmented and Integrated drones, now having rogue drone models and their own varieties, up to sentry drones and on rare occasions even fighters. All existing augmented and integrated drones get upgraded.
- Drone Commanders and/or exploration sites have a low chance to drop components that can be reverse engineered into Drone Ships for capsuleer use. Those are on a similar power level as pirate faction ships. The ships require a good amount of drone poo to build and possibly components found from exploration.
- One could even add a full faction module set for Rogue Drones, all found as BPC components, needing drone components and drone poo to build.
- One could even require the high end drone stuff to need wormhole salvage with Rogue Drones 'fraternizing' with Sleepers.
All this would do is keep drone poo off the market and instead add a ISK neutral market to EVE. Also it'd make the Drone Regions a more exciting place to live in and make Rogue Drones as a whole a more interesting and integrated faction.
Hell, maybe I'll even make a thread in F&I about this. --------
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Ventii
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Posted - 2010.03.15 11:32:00 -
[12]
Oh please....your are joking aint ya?
Mission runner flooding the market with minerals.....Have you realiased how many Wormholes there are and how many corps/ Aliances are actually based in there now mining 24/7?
There is a s***load of ores in W/H's including all the ABC's and you turn to mission runners flooding market....jesus dude it aint the missionersit....they been doin there thing for YEARS and now all of a sudden its missioners flooding the market with minerals...
You'll find since wormholes opened up is when the mineral prices started plumeting...so please blame what is ACTUALLY to blame!!ONE#!ELEVENTYONE!@!
Not to mention the week it takes for a noob to be able to scan Grav sites down in a tech 1 frigate which gives you the ABC ores..which an alt can mine.
And on the salvage thing the price of rigs has dropped specifically after they bought in sized rigs....jesus i make my own rigs so i know why the prices have plumeted and it isnt because of an influx of salvage.... it's because of small/ medium/ large sized rigs being introduced....which was supposed to make it easier for new pilot in their FRIGATE easy to put rigs on without spending 30mil on a rig in some cases...
If this is a troll well done...
If not....grow a brain
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Amberlamps
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Posted - 2010.03.15 11:34:00 -
[13]
Quote: Battlecruisers are the smallest T1 ship anyone really flies for PVP because they are much better than cruisers and, after they're fit up with named or tech 2 gear, less than 50% more expensive.
I stopped reading after that.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.15 11:44:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/03/2010 11:44:34
Originally by: Abrazzar Overhauling Rogue Drones, hmm.... a quick brainstorm here:
- Reduce drops of drone poo and add components to the drops that can be manufactured into Integrated and Augmented modules requiring drone poo and maybe a base T1 module to build.
- Those modules could be around meta 3 and meta 4/T2 level, at least in some parts, there is no need to stick to human design philosophy on those modules, making them different from the rest can increase the justification for their existence and gives a reason for trading them.
- Drone Commanders drop components that can be made into 'Tamed' drones, replacing current Augmented and Integrated drones, now having rogue drone models and their own varieties, up to sentry drones and on rare occasions even fighters. All existing augmented and integrated drones get upgraded.
- Drone Commanders and/or exploration sites have a low chance to drop components that can be reverse engineered into Drone Ships for capsuleer use. Those are on a similar power level as pirate faction ships. The ships require a good amount of drone poo to build and possibly components found from exploration.
- One could even add a full faction module set for Rogue Drones, all found as BPC components, needing drone components and drone poo to build.
- One could even require the high end drone stuff to need wormhole salvage with Rogue Drones 'fraternizing' with Sleepers.
All this would do is keep drone poo off the market and instead add a ISK neutral market to EVE. Also it'd make the Drone Regions a more exciting place to live in and make Rogue Drones as a whole a more interesting and integrated faction.
Hell, maybe I'll even make a thread in F&I about this.
That's introducing a new mechanic which actually addresses the problem rather than the symptom. But you will find few people can think like that. If they see their favourite game style being hurt they want to screw others over instead of thinking for the benefit of the game as a whole and introducing a mechanic that everyone benefits from.
While you have miners hating on mission runners and PVP players hating on carbears any solution will be bad for the game if it panders to that way of thinking. So the same tired old crap keeps being spouted rather then sensible solutions which benefit us all.
I think mining should be removed anyway as it would reduce the risk of me being screwed by keyloggers and mining bores me to tears so why should it be in the game. Maybe I should spout that nonsense out as from where I'm sitting it's the same quality of argument I hear all the time.
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Rexthor Hammerfists
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.15 11:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Abrazzar Overhauling Rogue Drones, hmm.... a quick brainstorm here:
- Change augmented drones to "named" combat and ewar drones with several meta levels from worse to better then t2
- Have some components drop unproducable stuff like robotics or nanite paste, now that sov is a huge isk sink and insurance fraud will be less it may not harm.
etc. -
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RootEmerger
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Posted - 2010.03.15 11:54:00 -
[16]
Removing t1 loot is not a really good idea, as there's quite a few of people that need the reprocessed minerals as they are in places or in situations where they just dont have the logistic abilities to go to a market and buy minerals.
Still we need some pretty big mineral sinks to offset all the minerals that come from t1 loot reprocessing. To get both those point work togeter we could make it so that reprocessing t1 loot becomes a lot less appealing, so you reprocess it only when there's just no better way to get those mineral otherways.
So... let's see...
Lets modify how t1 mods works, add to them a "modding kit" slot that works like rigs slots in ships. Remove all meta drops from the drop tables and replace them with "modding kits" that give to the basic t1 item the exact bonuses as it differ from equivalent meta item
This way t1 items become actually usefull to players, as they cant use those brand new "arbalest heavy launcher mod kit" they've dropped without the basic heavy launcher to fit them up - and that t1 launcher wont be reprocessed for minerals anymore.
As those kits works like rigs, if you want to upgrade from a lower meta to a better meta (or faction/ded/officer etc) you would have the choice to destroy the kit allready fitted on the module (so losing the reselling value) or buying another basic t1 mod to fit it with the new kit - if the player cose the first option that become an isk sink, if he chose the second that's another (potential) mineral sink, so that's good for the game both wayis.
The market value of mod kits should be the same of the meta items they replace (minus the basic t1 item) so this wont change the theoretic loot value in the drop tables by a great deal.
Issues to be addressed:
* how to resell joined t1 item + mod kit - as it is now reselling a rigged ship can be quite awkward and prone to scams, this would be an even bigger issue if most of the items in game become "rigged".
* T2 items - tree options: leaving them as they are now, changing them to "t2 mod kits" for regular t1 items (this require reworking all the building requirement) or making them able to mount their own kits (as in t2+kit=t3 mod - danger, power creep alert!)
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.15 12:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/03/2010 12:06:11 Edited by: Zartrader on 15/03/2010 12:05:00 You could even go further and allow Faction mods but only for very high amounts of minerals. Other games also have conversions (say two of badge x to get one of Y) which is similar to what you are saying. But all this would cause a lot of balancing issues I think. Really we just need a brand new Ore sink. At the moment players are emotionally and practically attached to what they do, any change will cause unnecessary problems and upset.
I also think the ore from missions is more a function of the number of players doing it. If mining were made more interesting (which may also reduce bots) and lucrative then Missions runners would be more inclined to do it. Mining right now is as interesting as watching paint dry from a game mechanic point of view. It amazes me there is so much minerals from mining as it is now.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.03.15 12:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ventii Oh please....your are joking aint ya?
nope, mate
Originally by: Ventii Mission runner flooding the market with minerals.....Have you realiased how many Wormholes there are and how many corps/ Aliances are actually based in there now mining 24/7?
ABC ore, yes.. the other stuff.. not really. What's your prob with them mining 24/7? If they like it fine.. it's their game.
Originally by: Ventii There is a s***load of ores in W/H's including all the ABC's and you turn to mission runners flooding market....jesus dude it aint the missioners....they been doin there thing for YEARS and now all of a sudden its missioners flooding the market with minerals...
you missed the "mission runners flood the market with T1 meta 0 loot" and thus rendering any T1 meta 0 industry useless. I only make one more step and add another manufacturing slice for complexities sake.. T1 meta 1-4 produced by players from various sources, which suck at the moment, i.e. k-space radar/mag/lad stuff and adjusted drone poo.
Originally by: Ventii You'll find since wormholes opened up is when the mineral prices started plumeting...so please blame what is ACTUALLY to blame!!ONE#!ELEVENTYONE!@!
you're talking ABC ores here.. And if you did actually read the OP you would have noticed that we have to many minerals already as we're scratching at the incurance payout. Why shouldn't we remove T1 loot from missions and replace it with BPCs for industrialists? Where is your problem man?
Originally by: Ventii And on the salvage thing the price of rigs has dropped specifically after they brought in sized rigs....jesus i make my own rigs so i know why the prices have plumeted and it isnt because of an influx of salvage.... it's because of small/ medium/ large sized rigs being introduced....which was supposed to make it easier for new pilot in their FRIGATE easy to put rigs on without spending 30mil on a rig in some cases...
hey, you got really a brain there.. lol. Small rigs are made out of 1/25th of the materials of a large rig and a med rig is made out of 1/5th of the material of a large rig. Do the math yourself you genius..
And if you're so concerned about rising rig part prices.. ccp just needs to spawn more of it to compensate if they see fit. Even more so.. if they get it right they could use just those parts the most for T1 meta 1-4 which spawn the most atmo.. The more use and sinks there are for stuff, the more stable everything gets. Interconnecting. Variation. Multiple ways. That's the goal you moron.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.15 12:30:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Zartrader on 15/03/2010 12:34:31
Yes but multiple ways seems to be what CCP avoid, I assume for simplicities sake. There are far too few ISK faucets and far too few mineral sinks. It should be balanced so missions are not the only easy way of making ISK and producing ships and modules the only way to spend ore. Selling POS blueprints would help, in fact CCP could do a lot if they wanted. They could do a little in several areas which would add up to a lot. Nerfing insurance or mission runner Meta 0 drops (using for other purposes than refining is fine though) does not address the underlying issue and its like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Even worse the Insurance nerf won't work for what I assume is it's intended purpose. I only hope they have a cunning plan, if not miners are screwed.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:26:00 -
[20]
Nice how OP post is based on the situation in 2008 and not consider the changes made in 2009.
Minerals are more plentiful NOW than in 2008 because:
- veldspar respawn rate and availability was increased in summer 2009
- WH space allow people to mine high end next door to high sec system
- the new sovereignty system and the industrial upgrades make minerals plentiful in 0.0 and force people there to mine to keep the industrial index up.
So 3 big sources of minerals, all of them from mining, have been added in recent expansion.
I would very much like to see what is the current percentage of minerals produced from loot, drone regions and mining.
If you too are interested, support this thread: [request of informations] Sources of minerals
After we have some up to date informations we could argue about what should be done.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Venkul Mul ...After we have some up to date informations we could argue about what should be done.
ouw.. *puts torch and fork back into the shed*
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:43:00 -
[22]
LOL, JUST STOP MINING!
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Psychotic Maniac LOL, JUST STOP MINING!
Maybe miners should be culled once a year
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.03.15 13:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Venkul Mul After we have some up to date informations we could argue about what should be done.
NERF EVERYTHING !!! --------
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.15 14:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Zartrader
Originally by: Psychotic Maniac LOL, JUST STOP MINING!
Maybe miners should be culled once a year
That's the really funny twist to all this: the complaints about how miners have it hard as it is and how it's so very unfair that they're targeted for ganks, and that these ganks should be removed or severely disincentivised… even though those ganks help miners more than just about anything in the game.
Any sensible miner would be giddy with joy at the thought of a near-complete miner apocalypse. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.03.15 17:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Nice how OP post is based on the situation in 2008 and not consider the changes made in 2009.
Minerals are more plentiful NOW than in 2008 because:
- veldspar respawn rate and availability was increased in summer 2009
- WH space allow people to mine high end next door to high sec system
- the new sovereignty system and the industrial upgrades make minerals plentiful in 0.0 and force people there to mine to keep the industrial index up.
So 3 big sources of minerals, all of them from mining, have been added in recent expansion.
I would very much like to see what is the current percentage of minerals produced from loot, drone regions and mining.
If you too are interested, support this thread: [request of informations] Sources of minerals
After we have some up to date informations we could argue about what should be done.
Every single one of these counterpoints exacerbate the problem; minerals are still too plentiful on the market.
I agree that it would be good to see a more recent breakdown on the source of raw materials, but I suspect that mission running and looting is still supplying between 1/2 and 1/3rd of of all the minerals in use.
As for the 0.0 Industry upgrades, I don't think CCP has gotten around to fixing them and they've never worked right. At best, they only supply a modest increase and you have to mine like a maniac to sustain even one point of upgrade that will evaporate if one day goes by without mining. As a result, even the industrial mega-alliances don't bother with them.
There is still enough information out there to make arguments about problems in gameplay and economics. It would definitely help to have more information, but I don't think this thread is premature.
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Malcolm Minkiahead
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Posted - 2010.03.15 18:16:00 -
[27]
Well, during september, october and november I trained my main and alt for the hulk in order to mine bistot in 0.0. The prices of zyd and mega were aldready falling, but I thought it was just a year long fluctuation.
Then with dominion we had a huge mineral price decrease, so my isk/hour ratio had decreased by about a good 40%.
Solution: now I am training for a raven. In a month you can fly a raven properly and run anomalies or level 4 missions.
If everybody acted as I do, I mean stop mining and meking money in a different way, the mineral prices would stabilize or even go back to the shiny old days.
The fact is that if you specialize into one thing in this game you are in danger, because things change, while many people say that in this game you have to specialize to
If miners had trained for a raven and had gained some standing (yes, it reuquires time) they would be running mission now in order to make money. Well if you enjoy mining more than making NPCs, you have to make a choice between money and "life quality", but it's just up to you.
The market rules are equal for everyone (in eve).
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CCP Firnor
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Posted - 2010.03.15 18:26:00 -
[28]
A lot of ideas in here, so I think this is far better off in the according forum for those ideas. So there it goes now
Firnor Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.15 19:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Evelgrivion
I agree that it would be good to see a more recent breakdown on the source of raw materials, but I suspect that mission running and looting is still supplying between 1/2 and 1/3rd of of all the minerals in use.
Maybe or maybe not. With the only data we have old and heavily contaminated it is hard to guess.
Originally by: Evelgrivion
As for the 0.0 Industry upgrades, I don't think CCP has gotten around to fixing them and they've never worked right. At best, they only supply a modest increase and you have to mine like a maniac to sustain even one point of upgrade that will evaporate if one day goes by without mining. As a result, even the industrial mega-alliances don't bother with them.
People are using them and the fact that you need to mine like a maniac to sustain them has the net effect of producing a lot of minerals, even when the market is already oversupplied.
It is possible that mega-alliances with good territory aren't interested in industrial upgrades, but renters and middle level alliances with the low quality 0.0 want them a lot. A few level mean getting ABC ores in a system that normally has only low sec ores, increasing the system worth by a great margin.
Originally by: Evelgrivion
There is still enough information out there to make arguments about problems in gameplay and economics. It would definitely help to have more information, but I don't think this thread is premature.
Premature? No. But your argument is based on two faulty premises:
a) that nothing has changed, so mission running is to blame for all the woes (essentially find the easy scapegoat);
b) that the old summer 2008 data were a precise depiction, while they were heavily contaminated by the reprocessing of compression items, of T2 items and of ships sold at a low price.
Bad data can be worse than no data.
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Evelgrivion
Ignatium. Aggressive Dissonance
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Posted - 2010.03.15 19:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Venkul Mul Premature? No. But your argument is based on two faulty premises:
a) that nothing has changed, so mission running is to blame for all the woes (essentially find the easy scapegoat);
b) that the old summer 2008 data were a precise depiction, while they were heavily contaminated by the reprocessing of compression items, of T2 items and of ships sold at a low price.
Bad data can be worse than no data.
Could you elaborate on point A? Point B is a fair thing to bring into question, and more data is needed.
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