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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 16/03/2010 22:30:34 Actually happened.
Economics professor and his class early in the semester up in i believe north u.s.(been awhile since i heard it on the news radio so cant remember the school) were discussing socialism.
The professor was explaining that a true socialist society where the very few have power and wealth where the masses have less is viewed as unequal in the eyes of the everyday socialist. He basically states that in a capitalistic society like ours it could never work but the class of young college students disagreed.
The professor became aggravated and decided to offer an option for the semester concerning grades. He stated that all tests would be averaged to become equal. The smarter lads in the class immediately started raising hell as they knew what was about to happen. The rest of the class eventually talked them into it. The professor passed out wavers which the entire class signed.
test one: test average B grade. the professor asked what the A students did and they said they studied hard. the restof the class was a mix of casual studiers and people that just didnt give a flip.
test two: test average D. the students that raised all that hell early on were asked what they did this time. they said they hadn't studied nearly as much because they dont want the losers in the class milking off their sweat. naturally the casual studiers studied even less and more people from the casual study group went over to the non study group.
final semester test. test average F. nobody studies at all for this one or very little as they felt that everyone else would atleast work hard enough to keep them in the D grade category so they could pass the class.
All failed the semester. see you next semester or you better super audit.
moral of the story. life isnt fair and everyone diserves their own rewards. if you dont like it go play wow. |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:44:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Xenofur on 16/03/2010 22:48:48 I don't see what that has to do with T2 BPOs. Anyhow, the conclusion you can draw from this is that students who are not actually committed to what they're studying are likely to use their time on things they find more important. It says nothing about what these students used the time on, which they suddenly found themselves with.
It is likely that a few of them will have wasted it with tv and booze, but it is even more likely that a good bunch of them spent the time learning other things or even creating things and thus contributing to human society at large still.
1/10 - You'll catch some, but that **** is way too obvious. You should remove the reference to Atlas Shrugged. vvvv
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:47:00 -
[3]
I could have sworn I heard about this on Rush Limbaugh's show. Spot on, and more teachers need to do this. So you can really educate those youngsters who spout off on how great it is 'in theory'. That - and make Atlas Shrugged required reading.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:54:00 -
[4]
Xeno it has everything to do with them you aren't "getting" the current issues if you can't see it.
0/10 for you |
Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.16 22:58:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Xenofur on 16/03/2010 22:58:20
Originally by: Jovialmadness Xeno it has everything to do with them you aren't "getting" the current issues if you can't see it.
Me not getting how this connects to T2 BPOs does not mean that the conclusion you want to draw from your little story is somehow not completely flawed. You can feel free to either explain how exactly me missing the connection somehow revalidates your story OR try to explain where you think my conclusions are wrong.
Originally by: Jovialmadness 0/10 for you
Well, this much is to be expected, since I'm completely sincere and not trying to troll.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.17 00:50:00 -
[6]
You will see what you want to see just like all the whine squad. This post was meant to bolster my team and shun the others off so be so kind as to move along. Your blatant ignorance of the current topics Infesting the very sub forum you are posting in shows you are trolling. |
Tellenta
Gallente Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.03.17 01:01:00 -
[7]
Your reasoning flawed You continue to type please stop typing now
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Xenofur
Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.03.17 01:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jovialmadness You will see what you want to see just like all the whine squad.
Just for the record: I have no opinion on the T2 BPOs. They are not easily within my reach and i have not implemented a model on calculating their profitability as well as their ROI yet, so they are a blank spot in my perception. Originally by: Jovialmadness This post was meant to bolster my team and shun the others off so be so kind as to move along.
Wait, are you sure you're in the right forum? I'm pretty sure this wasn't CAOD. Originally by: Jovialmadness Your blatant ignorance of the current topics Infesting the very sub forum you are posting in shows you are trolling.
One does not necessitate the other. I have my own reasons for posting in this forum and they in themselves are a perfect counter-example to the supposed moral of your story. I have done what i wanted to in pointing out your logical flaws and as of now am only engaging in discussion when it concerns those or adresses me in a way that i see it fit to provide an answer. Consider what I am doing constructive criticism on your propaganda efforts if you will.
Trolling would imply that I have a deeper agenda to rile up reactions in some manner, but i assure you that i am playing with perfectly open cards.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.17 01:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/03/2010 01:43:49 ok let me put it to you this way. i have more isk than you and im super rich.
please place whine below this line. i burn isk in my fire place because its cheaper for me to do that then sit down and actually pay my intergallactic heat bill at my personally owned tech 2 purchased planetary mansion. All you haters and whiners out there i have a license plate on the back of my multi billion isk ships that says wsh2bme.
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Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
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Jarod Leercap
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Posted - 2010.03.17 01:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 16/03/2010 22:30:34 Actually happened.
Economics professor and his class early in the semester up in i believe north u.s.(been awhile since i heard it on the news radio so cant remember the school) were discussing socialism.
While this is purely tangential, being unable to cite identifying information about the events does not increase the readers' confidence that they actually occurred. Most probably, you heard about this from someone who said it was true, who in turn may have done the same.
Quote: moral of the story. life isnt fair and everyone diserves their own rewards. if you dont like it go play wow.
T2 BPO's were originally handed out by lottery. There were folks who had plenty of RP and never got a T2 BPO. Those statistics argue against everyone having received a T2 BPO necessarily deserving it. (Back when the lottery was running, CCP noted that while older players tended to have more RP, the collective RP held by relative newbies mean that a fair number of T2 BPO's could be expected to go to them.)
Of course, some proportion (I have no idea what that proportion is) of T2 BPO's have since been resold, and anyone who bought them did so out of earnings. However, even then circumstance is relevant. I made a nice chunk of change (for me, anyway) back when invention was first started by farming and selling data cores. While others were apparently hanging on to the RP hoping for one of the last T2 BPO's or not pursuing the market, I sold when prices were high.
While one can certainly still make money farming data cores, the prices are generally a fraction of what they were when invention first came out. That's a opportunity a newer player won't have. (Not to say that there haven't nor will be more, just that that one is gone.)
None of this is to say that I necessarily support nerfing T2 BPO's. While it'd be nice to, as an inventor, be on a less steep slope, I realize that the folks who bought the T2 BPO's dropped a fair amount of ISK on them, and it'd be a significant hit to degrade their investment after the fact. At a minimum, CCP would be advised to give good warning before actually doing anything.
And, to be fair, it's kind of silly to argue about the T2 BPO's while the barge BPO's are priced like they are. The cost on those is more firmly out of whack than the efficiency benefits of the T2 BPO's, IMHO. Again, though, some folks have sunk serious ISK into those BPO's, and it'd be brutal to devalue the investment so directly after the fact.
There is certainly reason to leave T2 BPO's as they are; I'd just prefer it was done with less sanctimony.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.17 01:50:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/03/2010 01:54:20 nice post bro.
edit: i heard in on AM radio about 3 years ago on news talk radio while sitting in the parking lot of one of the plants i covered. |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.17 02:23:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/03/2010 02:23:27
Quote: Your reasoning flawed You continue to type please stop typing now
you need to be able to reason first. simply hopping in here...reading a post..and then typing that is laughable.
edit: i assume that was addressed to me. |
Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.03.17 03:34:00 -
[13]
I have no problem with bpo holders I'd just like some way of inventing bp's with up to me 10 more then that would be great but at least 10 would be able to compete with bpo holders for materials and would also reduce cost of things w/o bpo's such as t2 bs and jf
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Voogru
Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2010.03.17 03:58:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Voogru on 17/03/2010 04:03:50 I heard this story before, it's pro.
The whole T2 bpo issue is really the have nots against the haves. Give the have nots a valuable T2 BPO and they will probably reverse their opinion or dump the print on the market (as opposed to trashing it which is basically what they want).
I earned my T2 BPO's by working hard for them, they were not given to me by the lottery. I had to finnagle owners to part with them and it wasn't easy, it was a lot of hard work and negoiating in order to get them to hand over their beloved prints.
I don't care if they boost invention and further lower profit margins with T2 BPO's (which have already been reduced about 97.5% since invention was put in, at least in my case), but I draw the line at outright removal.
Theres people that say "BUT THATS THE RISK YOU TAKE", I don't see CCP going and removing overpowered ships from peoples hangars, they fix the system. Invention was the fix for T2 BPO cartels that where ebaying ISK left and right which is why they boosted invention 10 fold shortly after it was implemented.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Frank Corncob
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Posted - 2010.03.17 04:29:00 -
[15]
tl;dr sheep don't know what socialism is.
Country 'A' is the reality of the Republican definition of 'Capitalism':
This is a country where millions of people have no healthcare. The infant mortality rate is worse than in many "third-world" countries, and there is no safety net for the elderly and disabled such as Social Security. Millions of people are thrown out of their homes while the government spends over a trillion dollars of the taxpayers money (YOUR money) to bail out the huge banks and financial institutions that caused all those foreclosures, and caused the markets to crash with their insatiable greed.
Tax cuts go to the richest 5% of the population who don't need it. There there is no minimum wage, and giant corporations are given billions of dollars in tax breaks and "incentives" even as they ship jobs overseas where cheap slave-labor is permitted, and devise schemes to avoid paying their fair share of property taxes. Employers are allowed to discriminate against women and racial minorities in their hiring practices and wage scales. There is no such thing as "overtime pay." There are no basic safety regulations to protect workers and the public.
Country 'B' is what Republicans derogatively label 'Socialism':
This is a country in which the rich pay their fair share. Everybody has healthcare. The young and the old have shelter, heat and enough food to eat. Corporations and the financial system are regulated by common sense rules that protect their workers and the public, and ensure fair wages and prevent discrimination. Businesses that create jobs here instead of using cheap foreign labor get preferential treatment. Corporations have much less political influence in Washington, and the interests of citizens is paramount.
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Voogru
Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2010.03.17 04:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Frank Corncob tl;dr sheep don't know what socialism is.
Country 'A' is the reality of the Republican definition of 'Capitalism':
This is a country where millions of people have no healthcare. The infant mortality rate is worse than in many "third-world" countries, and there is no safety net for the elderly and disabled such as Social Security. Millions of people are thrown out of their homes while the government spends over a trillion dollars of the taxpayers money (YOUR money) to bail out the huge banks and financial institutions that caused all those foreclosures, and caused the markets to crash with their insatiable greed.
Tax cuts go to the richest 5% of the population who don't need it. There there is no minimum wage, and giant corporations are given billions of dollars in tax breaks and "incentives" even as they ship jobs overseas where cheap slave-labor is permitted, and devise schemes to avoid paying their fair share of property taxes. Employers are allowed to discriminate against women and racial minorities in their hiring practices and wage scales. There is no such thing as "overtime pay." There are no basic safety regulations to protect workers and the public.
Country 'B' is what Republicans derogatively label 'Socialism':
This is a country in which the rich pay their fair share. Everybody has healthcare. The young and the old have shelter, heat and enough food to eat. Corporations and the financial system are regulated by common sense rules that protect their workers and the public, and ensure fair wages and prevent discrimination. Businesses that create jobs here instead of using cheap foreign labor get preferential treatment. Corporations have much less political influence in Washington, and the interests of citizens is paramount.
This is what we have right now:
1. Socialism for the poor. (government bailouts of individuals) 2. Capitalism for the middle class. 3. Socialism for the ultra rich and power blocks (government bailouts of entities that should fail)
The problem is too much government. Everywhere the government isn't fiddling around with things gets cheaper. Everything the government has their hand in gets more and more expensive.
Government does not screw around with computers much, they get better and cheaper over time. Government does not screw around with vehicles much, they get better and cheaper overtime (the increase of new cars price usually is due to inflation).
But yeah, I totally would love to discuss real life politics on a forum where people fly internet spaceships. At least it'll be more fun than talking to whiners about T2 BPO's.
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Enthral
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Posted - 2010.03.17 06:02:00 -
[17]
Not sure what any of this has to do with Internet spaceships.
The health care debate has been beaten to death, with lies from the Democrats and fear mongering from the Republicans. Situation normal. All I can say is one thing: The poor and uninsured already have free access to health care in the US. Every public hospital in the country is required to accept everyone who walks in the door, and give them equal treatment, regardless of ability to pay. You don't even need to be a US citizen. The last time I was in the emergency room, they didn't even ask for my insurance until after I was treated. The whole "health care reform" issue is about politics and control, and has nothing to do with actual health care.
But that has nothing to do with Internet spaceships.
Neither does the whole bank bail out issue, which was embraced by the Republicans and enthusiastically implemented by the Democrats. Of course the Republicans were blamed by the Democrats for removing the regulations which allowed this to happen in the first place, but that's of course not the full story. The person in charge of the committee to recommend these regulations was a Democrat, namely Sen. Dodd. A certain Sen. McCain had a very passionate speech in front of the senate several years before the financial system imploded, calling out the banks, the faulty practices, and begging for regulations. No one wants to talk about that, or how Sen. Dodd accepted the second largest amount of money in donations from the banking industry. The only senator who accepted more? Senator Obama, of course.
But that has nothing to do with Internet spaceships, either.
What does have to do with Internet spaceships, is that with even the most basic analysis, it is obvious that T2 BPO's have no real affect on the markets. T2 ships that have never had BPO's are just as screwy as the rest, as are most of the larger T1 ships. Either way, when someone spends tens (or hundreds!) of billions of isk on something, CCP is going to have to tread carefully before yanking them out of the game or crippling them in some way.
That said, let me submit this: If CCP decided that, instead of yanking the T2 BPO's, that they should just seed them like T1 BPO's, and remove invention... how might inventors react? Would inventors be happy about the "leveling of the playing field", or perhaps would they feel a bit... cheated?
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Sprilk
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Posted - 2010.03.17 06:36:00 -
[18]
Ya the post has nothing to do with some people having tech 2 bpo's
If you removed tech 2 bpo's people would not all just stop working hard because there were no tech 2 bpo's they would still work hard and compete in the market.
An example that actualy corolates with the story, would be saying that everyone who produced an ishtar gets an even portion of all profit made from porducing ishtars, so there person that made 1 ishtar for a loss would get as much is as the person who made 20 at a 20% profit. then ya the market would die horribly most likely as you described. but what you described really has nothing to do with anything.
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Voogru
Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2010.03.17 06:52:00 -
[19]
This game is ultra-capitalistic in nature, that is why I enjoy this game. It's pretty much an unregulated free market. This game doesn't practice socialism where players are taxed and ISK is given to players who do nothing.
Yes, the lottery was a mistake. But they resolved the access to T2 with invention and reduced the profits of T2 BPO's by 97.5%+.
THEY NERFED T2 BPO's HEAVILY ALREADY.
Cap Recharger II Pre-Invention: 20m Cap Recharger II Post-Invention: 500-750k.
NERFROCKET!
T2 BPO's will die all on their own with no intervention from CCP. I'm fairly certain EVE isn't going to die anytime soon, and as time goes on, people with T2 BPO's will quit and those prints will no longer be in production.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.17 12:50:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/03/2010 12:51:24
Quote: Ya the post has nothing to do with some people having tech 2 bpo's
yea some of you are just too funny. Five posts in this sub forum about tech 2 bpo's and every single one loaded with people complaining about them causing an unfair advantage. Oh!! But you say not that?!?! You just think they are ancient relics that need to go away right? You just blow a passing comment our way like it's nothing expecting guys like me who, has invested hundreds of billions into them, to just shrug it off. Not while I'm bored at work buddy.
Every single whiner has a motive and that is either financial(meaning can't invent properly like the true inventors) or psychological(meaning just down right jealous).
Either way it's ridiculous and this post is directed to those that would want some form of equaled non eve type wow'ified Internet space ship game. A game I might add that the majority of the players who like eve for what it is do not want.
When eve started getting popular I was afraid this might happen. We have always had whiners and nerf brigades but in the past 3 years it's gotten pretty rediculous. Now you guys are attempting to validate a ner***e of tech 2 bpo's off of one or both of the reasons I mentioned above and that in itself forced me to call you all out and bust you.
Show me where bpo's cause true financial disruption to the markets of the game or where inventors aren't able to make more isk from their invention and i might take a look at that. As it stands now, inventors have the capability to out produce bpo holders but with more time and energy invested. Bpo holders invested the isk to avoid the time and energy.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2010.03.17 13:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jovialmadness Actually happened.
Economics professor and his class early in the semester up in i believe north u.s.(been awhile since i heard it on the news radio so cant remember the school) were discussing socialism.
Actually didn't happen.
Perhaps it would happen if you could find an economics professor who, like you, doesn't have the first clue what socialism is. Don't let that stop you from pontificating about social justice and Randian economic "theory" though.
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ExplicitViolence
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Posted - 2010.03.17 14:34:00 -
[22]
I dunno wth a waver is. Maybe this dude o/ <-- with his hand in the air?
Perhaps you meant waiver?
In any case I agree. And I don't even own a T2 BPO. Though I would like to see the stealth nerf to invention undone.
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badmouther
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Posted - 2010.03.17 14:51:00 -
[23]
you have got to be the wordiest troll i have ever seen. there seem to be a rash of tea party posts lately. little political landmines are all over these boards. why don't you and your little friends go back to your basements, put your tinfoil hats back on, and get back to fapping with your Big Asses magazine. i hear Glenn Beck is the centerfold this month and he's really into pegging. it should be quite a sight. |
Sophia Brons
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Posted - 2010.03.17 15:20:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Sophia Brons on 17/03/2010 15:21:18
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/03/2010 02:36:16 Edited by: Jovialmadness on 16/03/2010 22:30:34 Actually happened.
Economics professor and his class early in the semester up in i believe north u.s.(been awhile since i heard it on the news radio so cant remember the school) were discussing socialism.
The professor was explaining that a true socialist society where the very few have power and wealth where the masses have less is viewed as unequal in the eyes of the everyday socialist. He basically states that in a capitalistic society like ours it could never work but the class of young college students disagreed.
The professor became aggravated and decided to offer an option for the semester concerning grades. He stated that all tests would be averaged to become equal. The smarter lads in the class immediately started raising hell as they knew what was about to happen. The rest of the class eventually talked them into it. The professor passed out wavers which the entire class signed.
test one: test average B grade. the professor asked what the A students did and they said they studied hard. the restof the class was a mix of casual studiers and people that just didnt give a flip.
test two: test average D. the students that raised all that hell early on were asked what they did this time. they said they hadn't studied nearly as much because they dont want the losers in the class milking off their sweat. naturally the casual studiers studied even less and more people from the casual study group went over to the non study group.
final semester test. test average F. nobody studies at all for this one or very little as they felt that everyone else would atleast work hard enough to keep them in the D grade category so they could pass the class.
All failed the semester. see you next semester or you better super audit.
moral of the story. life isnt fair and everyone diserves their own rewards. if you dont like it go play wow.
Only you and your professor mixed up socialism with communism. Socialism is so not what you just described. But I heard it's a common mix-up by Americans (n/o).
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Pac SubCom
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.17 15:26:00 -
[25]
... and then the government socialized t2 production by introducing invention, with the result that many more people had access to high technology capital and methods than before, everybody had more fun and was happier and nobody had to work 20 hours for Hulks and 10+ hours for Vagabonds. Productivity and t2 pvp across the verse reached new heights, all because of socialism.
The wealthy capitalists, who received the correct t2 bpos by pure luck, couldn't make the poorer people work for them long hours anymore. They didn't like at all that their share of the universe's wealth was decreased by this unnatural and heavy handed redistribution.
So they came to the forums and posted "true stories" about aggravated people in class rooms to explain why an owner class who won a lottery should be able to exploit fiat game mechanics. And why capitalism is so great in a game world where nobody dies or feels pain compared to the real world. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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Voogru
Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2010.03.17 15:54:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Voogru on 17/03/2010 15:54:35
Originally by: Pac SubCom No it isn't. Every isk sink is a tax, and every isk source is a subsidy that can be and is changed by the government. It is actually a highly regulated system that only appears as a free market if you bracket out the government (which people constantly petition to change the regulations in fact).
A true free market can only develop when the only items found in space is ore to mine and blueprints to create and reaearch.
ISK Sources do not give ISK to players that do nothing.
If you do not kill that NPC, no money. If you do not finish that mission, no money.
You can obtain T2 BPO's but, surprise surprise, you have to earn them. If they are free for everyone then they will have no value.
Like invention.
I earned my prints, whats stopping you from earning yours? Oh right, you want a free ride.
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
Pac SubCom
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.17 16:10:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 17/03/2010 16:13:21
Originally by: Voogru Edited by: Voogru on 17/03/2010 15:54:35
Originally by: Pac SubCom No it isn't. Every isk sink is a tax, and every isk source is a subsidy that can be and is changed by the government. It is actually a highly regulated system that only appears as a free market if you bracket out the government (which people constantly petition to change the regulations in fact).
A true free market can only develop when the only items found in space is ore to mine and blueprints to create and reaearch.
ISK Sources do not give ISK to players that do nothing.
If you do not kill that NPC, no money. If you do not finish that mission, no money.
You can obtain T2 BPO's but, surprise surprise, you have to earn them. If they are free for everyone then they will have no value.
Like invention.
I earned my prints, whats stopping you from earning yours? Oh right, you want a free ride.
No I want to permaban your IP and trash your prints. Sadly you're protected by government regulations of 100% personal hangar safety. And your account is managed by the government too, making you immortal. Oh and I can't create my own bpo either because the information contained in it is magically protected by the government too. And it doesn't hand them out anymore. --------------- ∞ TQFE
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.17 16:26:00 -
[28]
I like cheap stuff, please keep undercutting each other so I can get more cheap stuff :)
I never really understood how america runs on a two party system. For that matter so does the UK. It's rediculous, especially when the main arguments from either side is "we're not as bad as them".
That's rubbish, I want a political party that turns up and says "we're awesome and this is why"
But then I also think that political office should be offered to those who are the head of their field.
Education minister goes to the best head teacher in the country. Chamber of commerce goes to the top of the banking institution. that kinda stuff, rather than some member of a corporation or minister that was friends with this one guy back in the day and is owed a favour.
Quick, grab the pitchfolks and over throw your governments then we'll have free milk and cookies for all :) --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Ick Ickagami
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Posted - 2010.03.17 16:59:00 -
[29]
In the real world, Socialism is wonderful!
That is, right up to the point that the government runs out of other people's money.
See Greece, ( and soon, the United States )
When you've run out of tax money, and no other country is willing to buy your junk bond status debt, you are pretty much ****ed, and all those wonderful government freebies go bye bye.
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Mikelangelo
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.03.17 17:03:00 -
[30]
I think the whole BPO issue is total bull.
If you didn't have 4 agents all getting research points, and you weren't running around like a chicken with your head cut off between all the systems running research missions, and if you didn't have several of your friends doing the same thing while the T2 BPO lottery was being implemented, then you don't have a friggin right to ***** and moan about it.
Shut the hell up if you didn't do the work and get one. I was helping a friend of mine while the T2 lottery was going on, and while I didn't personally get one, my friend did, and he was on 8-12 hours a day during that time grinding faction and research missions.
So, my point is, if you didn't do the work, then you have no right to complain about it. There are people in this game who put in hundreds (if not thousands) of hours trying to get a T2 bpo, didn't get one, and aren't complaining about it, so shut up already.
You people make me sick.
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Ick Ickagami
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Posted - 2010.03.17 17:14:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Mikelangelo ............shut up already.
Ah! Now we see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
Originally by: Mikelangelo
You people make me sick.
Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?
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Voogru
Gallente Massive Damage MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2010.03.17 18:21:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Ick Ickagami In the real world, Socialism is wonderful!
That is, right up to the point that the government runs out of other people's money.
See Greece, ( and soon, the United States )
When you've run out of tax money, and no other country is willing to buy your junk bond status debt, you are pretty much ****ed, and all those wonderful government freebies go bye bye.
Not true, they can just print more money. Bring on the 100 trillion dollar US currency notes!
Hate Farmers? Click Here |
FunzzeR
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.03.17 19:58:00 -
[33]
Edited by: FunzzeR on 17/03/2010 19:59:35
Seeing how this looks and feels like a massive T2 Bpo and RL politics troll bait thread, I'll bite anyways.
First off that is one astute professor who provided an excellent object lesson. As an econ background my hat is off to him. Mediocrity always will breed more mediocrity.
DISCLOSURE: I DO NOT OWN NOR HAVE OWNED ANY T2 BPOS IN THE PAST.
As for T2 Bpos I still honestly don't get the fuss why those who don't have them want them removed or nerfed. Having been around for the lottery and had 4 accounts each with all 3 character slots collecting RPs. I was unlucky enough to not get a bpo.
Anyways people say they are isk printing monopolies, which they were before invention was introduced. But these days given the insanely high barrier to entry I can think of multiple alternatives that make as much or more isk with little or no effort. (No I won't reveal them either--do your own homework)
All you need is some sense of intelligence and a willingness to do some research. (having a spreadsheet to keep track of data will help too).
I'm not going to even touch the RL politics but I will wholehearted agree with Voogru, too much government will bog down any progress technological, economic, or social.
How accomplished or wealthy a person is, should be a function of their efforts and not what is given to them. This applies to both EVE and RL. PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!!
THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!! |
badmouther
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Posted - 2010.03.17 20:06:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ick Ickagami In the real world, Socialism is wonderful!
That is, right up to the point that the government runs out of other people's money.
See Greece, ( and soon, the United States )
When you've run out of tax money, and no other country is willing to buy your junk bond status debt, you are pretty much ****ed, and all those wonderful government freebies go bye bye.
Greece is a parliamentary constitutional republic, and the US is a constitutional republic. neither has a socialist economy. its a shame americans are so poorly educated that they dont understand what socialism is. just because something isn't privatized doesnt mean its socialist. or are your sewage waste treatment plants part of the global homosexual socialist demon plot to take over the world? |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.03.17 21:05:00 -
[35]
If someone were suggesting, that everytime a T2 BPO was used to manufacture an item everyone in the game receive the item, then the OP would be applicaple.
As far as I'm aware, no one has made that suggestion. This means the OP is pure strawman.
We're not asking that the profits from the use of T2 BPOs be shared equally among all players. We're asking that the T2 BPOs be removed from the game.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:00:00 -
[36]
Quote: We're not asking that the profits from the use of T2 BPOs be shared equally among all players. We're asking that the T2 BPOs be removed from the game.
that still promotes a type of equality maybe not through direct isk profiting but through the removal or nerfing of assets to bring about a level playing field that is, infact, equal. A situation mind you that is not what EvE is about.
Show me another game where there are as many people that have items that are so rare THEY or a few others ARE THE ONLY ONES WITH THEM. rarity and price value of items is blatant in Eve. it is all you freaks coming in that are nutjobs that for some reason cant see the association with bpo rarity or just refuse to accept it. |
Kat Bandeis
Caldari Wacom Research
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:55:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Frank Corncob This is a country in which the rich pay their fair share.
Awesome, the "fair share" argument. Penalize those that work hard, create business, hire employees, and actually LEARN a trade, and reward those that do the minimum, skate by without contributing, breed, and eat bon-bons all day. Nice. I've always found it curious how some actually have the stones to demand more from others than they themselves are willing to do.
Me, I'm a fan of pulling your own weight. Never been without health insurance because I have always worked, either for others or self-employed. Spent time and sacrificed much to get where I am and have what I have, and no slacker loser is going to get more than they already take from me. Despite the current Administration's tactics, agenda, and obfuscation, AVERAGE Americans will never accept Socialism because, at it's heart, it's lazy, and most of us believe in doing your "fare share" to get what you want, and not demand it from a governmental body.
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.03.17 22:57:00 -
[38]
Story is fake, teacher would have lost his job even if the students "agreed" to it.
Fun little fairy tale for the atlas shrugged crowd though.
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.17 23:18:00 -
[39]
Quote: Story is fake, teacher would have lost his job even if the students "agreed" to it.
Fun little fairy tale for the atlas shrugged crowd though.
hehe. lies.
you would like to think so. without the waiver most definately. with it its a slap on the wrist to the professor and dont do that stupid s*** again. Like i said previously i honestly cannot remember the school. Seeing as how most schools are extremely liberal i dont see it causing the epic back lash you are stating. |
Jarod Leercap
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Posted - 2010.03.18 00:01:00 -
[40]
While I'm not advocating the removal of T2 BPO's, I don't think the suggestion that there is no market impact associated with them flies.
One of the prior QEN's actually considered this question and ultimately concluded that the impact of T2 BPO's is a function of the market volume vs the production capability provided by the T2 BPO's. For items where the production volumes the BPO producers could manage was a big share of the market volume, the T2 BPO's had a significant impact on the profitability of invention. However, for items where the BPO producers could account for only a small fraction of the market volume, the impact was found to be small.
I don't really have any way of validating this conclusion, but it smells right.
At the end of the day, I think the economy is healthy if you can turn a profit from crafting. To the extent that you can't do that for some items, it's a sign of less-than-perfect health, in my view. That said, while there are some crafted items that aren't profitable, there are many that are. Thus, I wouldn't call the EVE economy "sick"--especially when compared to some other MMO's.
From that point, the broader question becomes, "what makes crafting certain items unprofitable"? While T2 BPO's are a factor, I would rate them a minor one. For T1 producers--especially beginning T1 producers--the primary problem is loot. Some of the better-than-T2 named (Meta 1 to Meta 4) items also have a negative impact--on both invention and T2 BPO's. Given my druthers, I'd probably focus attention on this before doing anything with on the T2 BPO/invention front.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Situation Grey
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Posted - 2010.03.18 00:49:00 -
[41]
Snopes says... KB
My blogs: Tastes Like Chicken EvE Meta-Gaming |
Umega
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Posted - 2010.03.18 00:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey I like cheap stuff, please keep undercutting each other so I can get more cheap stuff :)
I never really understood how america runs on a two party system. For that matter so does the UK. It's rediculous, especially when the main arguments from either side is "we're not as bad as them".
That's rubbish, I want a political party that turns up and says "we're awesome and this is why"
But then I also think that political office should be offered to those who are the head of their field.
Education minister goes to the best head teacher in the country. Chamber of commerce goes to the top of the banking institution. that kinda stuff, rather than some member of a corporation or minister that was friends with this one guy back in the day and is owed a favour.
Quick, grab the pitchfolks and over throw your governments then we'll have free milk and cookies for all :)
Praise him! For he is.. Moses.
I too, am a lil bewildered by two party systems. Kinda leaves the majority that likes/dislikes ideas from both in no-man's land. Why they ultimately end up bouncing back and forth between the two. And the reasons why one stays through power longer could completely be for no reason of their own doing, but the previous parties actions that took longer to take effect (yes, thank you reagan for the '90s). And of course some things end up promoting an economic downfall, the wolf in sheep's clothing that has very next to nothing to do with what any political party does (yes, thank you interweb for the '00s). And then you want to punch one of'em in the face for suicide ganking a good chunk of your countries jobs (yes, thank you clinton for the trade act with china in '99 that walmart took FULL advantage of).. but you can't cause you respect the guy for gettin' as many hummers as he could in the oval office, trying to break kennedy's record.
So demented yet so raw its almost delightful that cooky two party system.
Cheers! To the potential collapse of the two party system in the States. God speed in its course.
What.. communist, socialism, T2 BPOs.. ? Oh.. T2 BPOs make it possible for other productions to exist at the volumes they do. If you don't got one, but hate them. Shut up and buy one before your jealousy kills babies. Don't got one, and don't care.. congratulations, you already understand how to work ur own ventures properly to achieve your own goals. Isn't that the hidden point of the OP?
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Charles Park
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Posted - 2010.03.18 09:10:00 -
[43]
Quote: Theres people that say "BUT THATS THE RISK YOU TAKE", I don't see CCP going and removing overpowered ships from peoples hangars, they fix the system. Invention was the fix for T2 BPO cartels that where ebaying ISK left and right which is why they boosted invention 10 fold shortly after it was implemented.
To be fair, I think most of the BPO 'removal' proposals have had some form of compensation to the BPO holder; replacing the bpo with a crap ton of max run bpc's, etc.
And there certainly is precedent for this; the speed nerf made Snakes worth only a fraction of what they used to be. They weren't removed from the game but the people who had invested in them recieved no compensation for their lost value.
Leaving the RL politics aside, the post above is spot on: BPO's only **** up low volume items. In high volume markets the BPO doesn't affect the inventors profit margins at all, they just provide the BPO holders with a bigger margin than the inventors.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.18 10:06:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Country 'A' is the reality of the Republican definition of 'Capitalism'
...
Quote:
Country 'B' is what Republicans derogatively label 'Socialism'
Never lived in country "A", but country B was SO GOOD on paper and resulted to be TERRIBLE in practice. Just sayin'
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.18 12:44:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 18/03/2010 12:45:21 Hey look it very well could be a "legend". Let's not go and bet our houses on snopes either ok. Especially considering they are calling it a legend and refer to their proof with, "legend has it that etc etc". Hehe.
I simply heard it on the radio years ago. If that diminishes it for you that it could be a civic legend or whatever then so be it. If you think that students aren't that ******ed and teachers aren't that crazy and socialism, in whatever blah blah form, isnt plain stupid then you are rediculous and need to be perma podded in game. |
Dana Mownhobbit
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Posted - 2010.03.18 12:45:00 -
[46]
If there was an option to gradually improve the ME and PE levels of invented T2 BPCs, would anyone still care about T2 BPOs? I would not. That's way I don't understand the heat against the BPOs. Don't nerf them, buff invention instead. I read someone's comment that this was a technical problem some time ago. But can it be so hard? I doubt it. Whether you let a BPC inherit the ME/PE levels (or some of it) of the T1 BPC or have another research activity which takes more datacores and has the chance to improve the levels of the bpcs (or not, or even destroy it if failing utterly). Both would work and I can't imagine why this can't be implemented. I even would prefer the latter variant, since it is another sink for datacores but it's optional (risk vs. reward). it might only be profitable for some items, rather the most expensive ones. good enough for me.
Maybe some Dev should comment this, I miss information about CCP's opinion on that whole matter anyway. But I notice that the T2BPO issue is the dominant topic these days in this forum.
And allthough I find this RL politics/economics comparison utterly ridiculous, i cant resist to comment. Since someone above implied, that hard work translates to wealth and noone which doesn't work as hard deserves to get a share from that wealth. If this was true, then investment bankers and hedgefond managers are the most hard-working ppl on the planet? Riiiiiight...
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.18 12:51:00 -
[47]
Quote: If this was true, then investment bankers and hedgefond managers are the most hard-working ppl on the planet? Riiiiiight...
sweet! Now we have the current crimes division piping in with their wealth of wit.
Assuming done legit if someone controls hundreds of millions of dollars of other peoples money let's just give them a nice government salary of 45,000 usd a year riiiight?.
Man gtfo here. |
Ick Ickagami
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Posted - 2010.03.18 13:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: badmouther Greece is a parliamentary constitutional republic, and the US is a constitutional republic. neither has a socialist economy. its a shame americans are so poorly educated that they dont understand what socialism is. just because something isn't privatized doesnt mean its socialist. or are your sewage waste treatment plants part of the global homosexual socialist demon plot to take over the world?
Socialist POLICIES are socialist POLICIES, and they bankrupt nations whether they are "socilaist" nations or not.
No government can "cradle to grave" people like they want. Government exists to provide infrastructure and security so that private enterprise can get on with allowing people the option of failing or succeeding. When Government forces people into a situation where they can not fail on their own, the government itself will eventually do the failing for everyone.
Proven time after time after time.
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Dana Mownhobbit
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Posted - 2010.03.18 13:29:00 -
[49]
So they get a lot of money from a lot of ppl to make the best out of it, and they get a 'fair' share of that money so they don't get the money for only their hard work, but also for their responsibility to prevent them from becoming corrupted and steal even more money? Which proves hard work doesen't just translate to more money.
And why doesn't the same rule apply to government members which handle billions of tax money from a lot of ppl to make the best out of it?
The latter are treated like being corrupt anyway and the former are just hard-working. Mmmhkay
Now, are the banksters overpaid or the government underpaid?
Which is it, Mr. Antisocialism?
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Winters Chill
Amarr Shadow Legion. Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.03.18 13:37:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Winters Chill on 18/03/2010 13:43:11
Sounds like a thought experiment more than an actual case study. Considering that asking real life students to sacrifice a year of their academic life is a huge breach of ethics. Waivers indeed... my arse.
In addition; the thought experiment itself seems to be a rather flawed interpretation of marxist thought. It argues that in socialism the "weak" will pull down the "strong" until the "strong", dejected by the "weak"s lack of motivation also become the "weak". How very right wing and so typical of the yanks. The only marxist factor was that the students where punished collectively for behaving out of self interest, which is fair enough.
To truly represent marxism: all the students would be graded together however the students would have been organized and elected a governing committee of the brightest in order to gauge who was a weak student and who was a strong student, the collective group would then study together, working out of collective communist interest.
Those who would not work or worked against the interested of the group would be sent to the camps, to be re-educated...
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.18 14:13:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 18/03/2010 14:16:44 Oh whatever Dana.
Why are you comparing government employees who handle billions to private sector parties that do the same?
I'll tell you. You are because you are comedy and can't decipher the differance.
Here it is.
I don't send my income tax to a federal auditor or way and means member to gain PROFIT from it I do so to pay my taxes so the government can utilize it to pay for the peoples housing that don't own tech 2 bpo....wait I mean have jobs.
I send my money to investors, who are skilled in finance, to invest my money to make profit for retirement or whatever short term profiting goals I might have.
One is strictly a passive bean counter with great responsibility that doesn't actively and dangerously invest the funds in high risk ventures. The other is an active low-high risk investor.
Think you can grasp that?
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Curly Quote
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Posted - 2010.03.18 16:52:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jovialmadness Edited by: Jovialmadness on 17/03/2010 02:36:16 Edited by: Jovialmadness on 16/03/2010 22:30:34 Actually happened.
Economics professor and his class early in the semester up in i believe north u.s.(been awhile since i heard it on the news radio so cant remember the school) were discussing socialism.
The professor was explaining that a true socialist society where the very few have power and wealth where the masses have less is viewed as unequal in the eyes of the everyday socialist. He basically states that in a capitalistic society like ours it could never work but the class of young college students disagreed.
The professor became aggravated and decided to offer an option for the semester concerning grades. He stated that all tests would be averaged to become equal. The smarter lads in the class immediately started raising hell as they knew what was about to happen. The rest of the class eventually talked them into it. The professor passed out wavers which the entire class signed.
test one: test average B grade. the professor asked what the A students did and they said they studied hard. the restof the class was a mix of casual studiers and people that just didnt give a flip.
test two: test average D. the students that raised all that hell early on were asked what they did this time. they said they hadn't studied nearly as much because they dont want the losers in the class milking off their sweat. naturally the casual studiers studied even less and more people from the casual study group went over to the non study group.
final semester test. test average F. nobody studies at all for this one or very little as they felt that everyone else would atleast work hard enough to keep them in the D grade category so they could pass the class.
All failed the semester. see you next semester or you better super audit.
moral of the story. life isnt fair and everyone diserves their own rewards. if you dont like it go play wow.
Cool, so anecdotal evidence against socialism. Seems solid, bro.
The biggest problem I see about this whole perspective is that it assumes that socialism in an economy is analogous to an academic class in which everyone gets the same grade. This is hardly the case. The most obvious critique of this perspective is to ask the question: Is there grade scarcity? And the answer is a resounding NO. Thus, this is hardly any sort of economic analogy and your professor should be laughed out of his position for his suggestion that it is so.
In any case, I can give you an anecdote of a course I took in financial portfolio modeling while at UCSD in which all of the students in my class were to be given the same grade, and we were to be graded only on our final project. Everyone worked their butts off, we produced an amazing project, and we all got A+s. It was one of the best classes I've ever taken, and I remember every practically single detail about the course. |
badmouther
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Posted - 2010.03.18 17:54:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ick Ickagami Socialist POLICIES blah blah blah
You didn't bother to read the wiki page on Socialism or you would've kept your mouth shut instead of writing more irrelevant idiocy. Teabaggers are a bunch of morons who dont and cant think for themselves. They need the GOP and Roger Ailes to do that for them.
Time to move this thread to Out of Pod experience. |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.03.18 18:52:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jovialmadness that still promotes a type of equality maybe not through direct isk profiting but through the removal or nerfing of assets to bring about a level playing field that is, infact, equal. A situation mind you that is not what EvE is about.
Socialism seeks to ensure equality of outcome. It fails becuase if I get reward not based on my effort, I do not put in much effort.
This is not what I'm promoting at all.
What I want is for special advantage to be removed to prevent profit and power from being concentrated into few hands who can maintain that profit and power with less effort that it would take other to aquire it do to changes in game mechanics.
Equal oppertunity is NOT equal outcome.
Level playing field is NOT socialism. |
SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.03.18 18:56:00 -
[55]
Originally by: LHA Tarawa
I still don't understand most of the game mechanics that I'm engaging in debate about, and I still think said mechanics should be changed based on my misunderstandings and erroneous beliefs.
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ExplicitViolence
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Posted - 2010.03.18 19:07:00 -
[56]
Why in the name of all that is right in Political Science is this thread not locked yet?
Most likely answer? It is just hilarious to watch Europeans and Americans go at eachother without understanding the differences in their politics. |
Semper Nefarius
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Posted - 2010.03.19 11:32:00 -
[57]
I hope some people has already pointed out to the OP that the story is fake, since I can't belive a professor (in economics no less) would completely miss the not so subtle differences between socialism and communism. Living in one of the most socialist countries in the world, I can testify it's pretty sweet here (average living standards are high, high level of eduacted people, free healtcare etc...).
I love how you start the post with "actually happened", when it has been a rumor floating around for ages, and you can't remember the specifics.
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
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Posted - 2010.03.19 12:33:00 -
[58]
Hmm, let me try to find something those against and in support of communism can both agree on, based on what I've read so far:
It's the people that fail communism, not the system itself. In a capitalist world, a communist nation has a hard time being succesful. |
Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.19 13:06:00 -
[59]
The reason the thread has not been locked is because there is a relationship between what some people want in this game that would break the game and the end result of that story. I am showing how regardless if the story is real or not that as long as you aren't a total political nut job you will see atleast the remote possibility of this story being conceivable. Super impose this story into eve and remove all perceived unfair aspects of the game so that all we can achieve and look forward to is pure numbing equality then it would simply turn eve into star wars after the whiners and lucas' greed prevailed.
Nothing can ever quench the unattainable need need need of a jealous whining eve player though. Definately not those that can't even see a link between subjects. I'll give it to you that the comparison is more suited as an example of why eve is eve and all the rest of the games are succk. |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:40:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Jovialmadness The reason the thread has not been locked is because there is a relationship between what some people want in this game that would break the game and the end result of that story.
Really? Really?
I think I've read most of the posts on T2 production, and I have yet to find one person suggesting that the profit from T2 BPOs should be shared equally among all players.
Asking for equality of oppertunity is NOT the same as asking for equality of outcome.
What you are doing is called fallacy of definition.
Removal of T2 BPO = some sort of equality. Policies seeking equality of outcome = communism. Communism is similar to socialism, just to a greater degree. Socialism = evil.
Therefore, removal of T2 BPO = evil.
What a steaming heap... |
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:50:00 -
[61]
Lies.
What I said stands your opinion is noted and wrong. |
LHA Tarawa
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Posted - 2010.03.19 16:55:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Jovialmadness LHA Tarawa has won the debate, so I have become an insult lobby troll.
I could not have said it better myself.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.03.19 17:30:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 19/03/2010 17:30:51 Thanks for quoting me then putting your statement in there.
Tbh I haven't considered this a debate bro. We are showing you that everything is actually fine. You are the one that has this notion that tech 2 bpo's NOW cause an imbalance.
Let's be brutally honest and base that statement I just made on the ONLY proof that I'm right. Ccp hasn't done anything to the actual prints at all except remove the lottery and indirectly affect them with invention.
Now if you want to debate that let's see wut u got biig boi. |
Red lensman
Gallente BlackSky inc. Vanguard.
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Posted - 2010.03.20 04:27:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Red lensman on 20/03/2010 04:30:00 Edited by: Red lensman on 20/03/2010 04:28:14 Edited by: Red lensman on 20/03/2010 04:27:40 if you introduce ME/PE effects on invention what about my early bpo's from the early days you needed to keep a bpo in the lab to keep the slot which are in ME 2k+ and some of my ammo bpo's that are all perfect builds do you want to nerf those as well?
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