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Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, as far as I can tell, CCP does not allow players to sell and share our accounts.
How does that go with the ruling that allow Europeans to legally sell any computer program to another person?
http://www.lo-ping.org/2012/07/03/eu-court-ruling-allows-for-re-sale-of-used-games-by-end-users-you/
GÇ£an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his GÇÿusedGÇÖ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internetGÇ¥.
"The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale." |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
231
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your account isn't a software license. |
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
23
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
One has nothing to do with the other. Apples and Steaks. Primary Test Subject |
Django Returns
ARES Unlimited
94
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why isnt your account a software license? |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
My account is as essential to the game as the game in itself. I would hazard a guess that you are not allowed to sell software that are not possible to use because it's not possible to be used without an account, and it's not possible to create said account.
Lets say Microsoft sold several million copies of Windows 8 and didn't provide serials. Serials are not part of the software, so would that be allowed? I think not |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
BoBoZoBo wrote:One has nothing to do with the other. Apples and Steaks. I strongly disagree. Read my above post |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
53
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
End User License Agrement. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
77
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:End User License Agreement is overruled by the laws in the country you and the software developer is in. FTFY |
dexington
Lysergic.acid.diethylamide
23
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think the eula says that your character and all items, etc belongs to CCP, and you are paying them money for access to the virtual items, or something along those lines.
You do not own your character, so you can not sell it. |
Kyle Ward
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
157
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:End User License Agrement.
I think I have a stack of those in my bathroom... The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong! |
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Mallak Azaria
261
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
You don't own your account, you're renting it. The software for EVE is free. |
Nirnias Stirrum
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
209
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
You dont own the game when you purchase it... you purchase a license to play the game.
Same as renting a car.. You dont own the car you are paying for the privilage to drive it. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
222
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
As was said above me, You dont own your account, CCP does.
So if you sell it for real life money you are effectivley Stealing, and Selling Stolen Goods.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
209
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Posted - 2012.07.03 13:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Your account isn't a software license.
It is actually in the context of the ruling.
The ruling is fairly clear and deals with software, not just games.
Oracle are the company who has been trying to block resale and from what I remember they tried to argue that "downloaded" software should have different resale rules to software installed from a physical medium (CD/DVD). The argument involved the use of an install mechanism which required an account with Oracle to download/install/activate the licenced software.
The court has disagreed with Oracle.
There are some salient points which most gamer sites will have missed - such as :
"Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy GÇö tangible or intangible GÇö and at the same time concludes, in return [for] payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy,"
As far as I'm aware CCP do not provide a licence agreement to use for an unlimited period. There is a recurring monthly fee. I suspect that means you can in fact sell an entire account but not a character from an account. This might in fact stop character transfers within the EU but allow account transfers.
Parasite (lawyer) heaven |
Nirnias Stirrum
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
209
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Othran wrote:Patient 2428190 wrote:Your account isn't a software license. It is actually in the context of the ruling. The ruling is fairly clear and deals with software, not just games. Oracle are the company who has been trying to block resale and from what I remember they tried to argue that "downloaded" software should have different resale rules to software installed from a physical medium (CD/DVD). The argument involved the use of an install mechanism which required an account with Oracle to download/install/activate the licenced software. The court has disagreed with Oracle. There are some salient points which most gamer sites will have missed - such as : "Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy GÇö tangible or intangible GÇö and at the same time concludes, in return [for] payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy," As far as I'm aware CCP do not provide a licence agreement to use for an unlimited period. There is a recurring monthly fee. I suspect that means you can in fact sell an entire account but not a character from an account. This might in fact stop character transfers within the EU but allow account transfers. Parasite (lawyer) heaven
And the owner of the license (i.e. CCP), reserve the right to revoke your license agreement for any reason, since thats what you agreed to when you pressed accept on the TOS and the EULA:
Such as say, selling your account for real money :P |
Abel Merkabah
TIMELINE Industries
33
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Othran wrote:Patient 2428190 wrote:Your account isn't a software license. It is actually in the context of the ruling. The ruling is fairly clear and deals with software, not just games. Oracle are the company who has been trying to block resale and from what I remember they tried to argue that "downloaded" software should have different resale rules to software installed from a physical medium (CD/DVD). The argument involved the use of an install mechanism which required an account with Oracle to download/install/activate the licenced software. The court has disagreed with Oracle. There are some salient points which most gamer sites will have missed - such as : "Where the copyright holder makes available to his customer a copy GÇö tangible or intangible GÇö and at the same time concludes, in return [for] payment of a fee, a licence agreement granting the customer the right to use that copy for an unlimited period, that rightholder sells the copy to the customer and thus exhausts his exclusive distribution right. Such a transaction involves a transfer of the right of ownership of the copy," As far as I'm aware CCP do not provide a licence agreement to use for an unlimited period. There is a recurring monthly fee. I suspect that means you can in fact sell an entire account but not a character from an account. This might in fact stop character transfers within the EU but allow account transfers. Parasite (lawyer) heaven
We don't purchase unlimited liscences from what I understand. "To destroy is always the first step in any creation." - E. E. Cummings |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
166
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:So, as far as I can tell, CCP does not allow players to sell and share our accounts. How does that go with the ruling that allow Europeans to legally sell any computer program to another person? http://www.lo-ping.org/2012/07/03/eu-court-ruling-allows-for-re-sale-of-used-games-by-end-users-you/GÇ£an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his GÇÿusedGÇÖ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internetGÇ¥. "The exclusive right of distribution of a copy of a computer program covered by such a licence is exhausted on its first sale."
Well, go ahead and do it, after the ban, get a lawyer, test the precident and let us know how that works out for you.
I'm an American, English is my second language... |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
67
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Not sure about stuff above but after few years of paying for this chars when im done with em this baby and other are going to e-bay. |
Cebraio
Starfire Oasis
105
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
In the German article I read about it today, they talked about "unlimited right of utilization" that can be sold together with the software to a third party - after the software has been uninstalled.
You do not get this unlimited right of utilization from CCP. You pay a fee to access the game. This cannot be sold.
Also the software is distributed freely and the characters and in game items are property of CCP and also can not be sold. Sure character transfer is possible, but only because CCP allows it - and even then the character remains property of CCP.
This ruling IS interesting for gamers though, because it means Valve, EA, Blizzard and others might be forced to offer a way for selling used games - at least for EU customers. I'm looking forward to sell D3. Two weeks ago they refused my request. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
404
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Internet lawyers
brb |
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
514
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:One has nothing to do with the other. Apples and Steaks. I strongly disagree. Read my above post Disagree all you want - you are wrong.
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
209
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Posted - 2012.07.03 14:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nirnias Stirrum wrote:
And the owner of the license (i.e. CCP), reserve the right to revoke your license agreement for any reason, since thats what you agreed to when you pressed accept on the TOS and the EULA:
Such as say, selling your account for real money :P
National laws > EULA. Oracle's EULA says you can't sell software. Court says you can. Oracle lose.
Software developers can put whatever they like in the EULA, it isn't going to make any difference if a court says otherwise in an area they sell the product. CCP quote the laws of Iceland, which is part of the EEA so they have to comply with EU court decisions if they wish to sell products within the EU.
EULAs aren't worth the paper they're written on in anywhere other than the USA, and even there its increasingly dodgy. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.07.03 15:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
What was the question?
Sure, sell it, buy one, whatever. The only thing to remember is not to get caught. |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
775
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Posted - 2012.07.03 15:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bootleg Jack wrote: Well, go ahead and do it, after the ban, get a lawyer, test the precident and let us know how that works out for you.
I like this idea a lot. @Op - You agreed to the EULA whether you want to rationalise it otherwise or not. You went "click" and that was your consent. Rant all you want, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
4030
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Posted - 2012.07.03 15:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:One has nothing to do with the other. Apples and Steaks. I strongly disagree. Read my above post Disagree all you want - you are wrong. lol /thread
/c
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
651
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Posted - 2012.07.03 15:21:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:Bootleg Jack wrote: Well, go ahead and do it, after the ban, get a lawyer, test the precident and let us know how that works out for you.
I like this idea a lot. @Op - You agreed to the EULA whether you want to rationalise it otherwise or not. You went "click" and that was your consent. Rant all you want, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I'd say yes and no, game accounts doesn't really fall under this category in my mind, but software licenses such as a Windows license would. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
209
|
Posted - 2012.07.03 15:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think the point to bear in mind is that the court ruling does not appear to apply to licences where there is a recurring fee to use the software. It only applies to software where a licence is granted for an "unlimited period".
That means (for example) Steam have a problem* as there's no recurring fee. CCP don't have a problem on Eve (but may have on Dust) as there is a recurring fee associated with Eve.
*the game companies have more of a problem than Steam does - Steam will simply charge a small admin fee to transfer a game from one account to another. Steam still makes some money, games company will not. Interesting to see how that pans out. |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
262
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Posted - 2012.07.03 15:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
Othran wrote:I think the point to bear in mind is that the court ruling does not appear to apply to licences where there is a recurring fee to use the software. It only applies to software where a licence is granted for an "unlimited period".
That means (for example) Steam have a problem* as there's no recurring fee. CCP don't have a problem on Eve (but may have on Dust) as there is a recurring fee associated with Eve.
*the game companies have more of a problem than Steam does - Steam will simply charge a small admin fee to transfer a game from one account to another. Steam still makes some money, games company will not. Interesting to see how that pans out.
Steam already has the framework to transfer games between accounts for a year now.
On the other side, I'm pretty sure they will be sending the EU a bill for all the time spent recovering games from hacked accounts.
Also, LOL at OP trying to justify RMT. An account is not a piece of software, get over it. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
209
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Posted - 2012.07.03 16:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Messoroz wrote: On the other side, I'm pretty sure they will be sending the EU a bill for all the time spent recovering games from hacked accounts.
I doubt it.
The EU Commission recently did a cost/benefit analysis for business of operating within a EU member state. They calculated that the benefits were around Gé¼15bn and the cost of compliance with directives was Gé¼60bn.
The EU benefits two countries and Steam isn't from either of them :D |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8343
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Posted - 2012.07.03 16:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
The use of EVE requires three things: a software license, an account, and an internet connection.
The last one is entirely your problem and beyond the scope of what CCP can control GÇö you establish that one with your local ISP.
The second one the thing that lets you log on to the servers and mess around with CCP's database content. This is what the EULA prohibits you from reselling. It is a service contract, and has nothing to do with software. As such, it is not covered by the ruling. It's this service that is (largely) the topic of the EULA, where the limits and limitations of the service are explained (such as an SLA where there are absolutely no QoS guarantees).
The first one is the $5 extra you probably paid to set up your very first account, in addition to the $15 for the first month. You can also get that license for free alongside the creation of a trial account through the buddy system or some other means. Technically, you're not allowed to run EVE without a license, but since there is no point in running the software without the service contract, which is sold alongside a license to use it, it's not like they're going to crack down on unlicensed useGǪ
GǪbut they might crack down in people trying to sell copies of the game client outside of their own retail channels (the Atari physical distribution and through download from the website or Steam). This is where the ruling steps in and says that you are allowed to resell that physical box you bought from the store and neither Atari nor CCP can come after you. If you try to sell the client download, they'll do nasty things to you because you'll have a very hard time proving that each download was a license you had bought and then resold. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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