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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.21 03:20:00 -
[1]
Auction for 100K shares of AATPH in blocks of 10K :
A. 10000 Shares of AATPH B. 10000 Shares of AATPH C .10000 Shares of AATPH D. 10000 Shares of AATPH E. 10000 Shares of AATPH F. 10000 Shares of AATPH G. 10000 Shares of AATPH H. 10000 Shares of AATPH I. 10000 Shares OF AATPH J. 10000 Shares of AATPH
Starting bid : 35k Isk Minimum Increment : 1K isk No reverve. Auction ends @ 28th March at 23:00 eve time.
Happy bidding.
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Legende
Two Brothers Mining Corp. R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.03.21 05:17:00 -
[2]
How many shares are actually in circulation at this point? AATPH looks to have 9.5 million shares to the name, but surely that can't all be in circulation, can it?
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.03.21 07:05:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Legende How many shares are actually in circulation at this point? AATPH looks to have 9.5 million shares to the name, but surely that can't all be in circulation, can it?
There are 9.5m AATP shares - all of which were in circulation; and 9.5m AATPH shares. So far 4,270,133 AATP shares have been exchanged for AATPH shares, leaving 5,229,867 outstanding.
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Dalden V
Blue Lounge Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2010.03.25 12:18:00 -
[4]
Nobody has shown any interest so far?
Is this because the asking price is too high or perhaps some other reason?
I was considering buying some shares, but I'm a bit reluctant now that nobody else is showing interest.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:30:00 -
[5]
Might want to try selling them on an Exchange.
Pretty easy to list and you might get some takers.
Amarr for Life |
Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
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Posted - 2010.03.25 13:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dalden V Is this because the asking price is too high or perhaps some other reason?
I was considering buying some shares, but I'm a bit reluctant now that nobody else is showing interest.
I think the starting bid might be a little high. The ones that TornSoul was auctioning off did not reach this price.
Originally by: SencneS Might want to try selling them on an Exchange.
Pretty easy to list and you might get some takers.
Yes, this would be a better idea I would think.
Please note that Block Ukx will be out of contact for a week (2010.03.26 - 2010.04.04), although Poison will probably be able to elaborate if necessary. --
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Athias
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:56:00 -
[7]
Ill be willing to give you the same offer I gave TornSoul, 26500 ISK pr share, should be 2650M ISK total if my math is correct
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Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.26 02:26:00 -
[8]
Thanks for the feedback folks, I have lowered the price.
Happy bidding.
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Eve Trollin
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Posted - 2010.03.26 02:36:00 -
[9]
As you can see from other recent posts, auctions do not belong in this forum. |
Dalden V
Blue Lounge Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2010.03.26 13:12:00 -
[10]
I'll place a bid for one block of 10K at 27k per share, total 270M
I assume you made a typo here and didn't mean to put in the 'k':
Quote: Starting bid : 26500k Isk
PS: Are you going to use a third party for the transfer of the shares?
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.03.26 14:05:00 -
[11]
Edited by: RAW23 on 26/03/2010 14:13:37 Edited by: RAW23 on 26/03/2010 14:05:58 Can someone explain to me why AATP/AATPH shares appear to be so desirable? The share value has grown by 5% in the last year, with a considerable chunk (roughly 20%) of that growth being due to the extremely dodgy accounting practice of increasing the value of Goodwill listed on the accounts by 2 billion. A very large proportion of the value of the shares comes from intangible rather than tangible assets and, as such, are subject to the possibility of radical revaluations. For instance, the valuations on the February 2009 balance sheet were way off the mark, as we can see from the fact that despite a new BPO worth over 40bil being added to the assets this year, the value of the company has only grown by c. 10bil. This is not to say the valuations are problematic in themselves, just that any company with a very large proportion of intangible assets is subject to possible very large losses (and gains) at the drop of a hat and due to no fault of their own.
In addition, dividends have provided very low returns:
Dividends have been paid four times in the last 12 months:
Jan 25th 2010 - 5 bil - 500mil fee Dec 25th 2009 - 13.5bil - 1500mil fee Sept 21st 2009 - 6.5bil - 650mil fee Aug 15th 2009 - 6.5bil - 650mil fee
Total dividends: 31.5 bil - 3.3bil fee = 28.2 bil to shareholders
= average monthly payment of 2.35bil or 247.37isk per share or 1.103% monthly return.
So, given all this, why are people willing to pay 10% and more over the face value of the shares? Is it because they are expecting a large revaluation upwards of the BPO holdings? Or because better dividends are expected for the coming 12 months? This last expectation certainly seems reasonable as the previous 12 months had a 6 month hiatus to pay for the new BPO (and/or to cover the gap created by the previous over-valuation). But even if the dividends double and the payouts for the next 12 months average 2.2%, those who pay 10% or more over face value will still be seeing very poor returns.
So, could someone explain to me what it is that makes these shares so attractive? Is it just a big gamble on BPO prices? Or is there something else that I'm missing entirely?
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Dalden V
Blue Lounge Industries New Eden Research
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Posted - 2010.03.26 15:33:00 -
[12]
Thanks for the research RAW.
Personally I was just looking for something to invest spare ISK in, something low risk that I don't have to put much effort into. I want to diversify to spread risk and I don't really mind if I don't see a return right away.
But after reading your overview of the share I might withdraw my bid.
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Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
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Posted - 2010.03.26 18:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: RAW23 stuff
Careful - you will attract the Great Troll/MD Elite/Financial Hero/Sarcasm Specialist (delete if required ) with stuff like that and get the thread locked.
It always seems to appear when I mention such interesting things
Found this though, enjoy;
"Regarding AATP, it is my opinion it should be liquidated. Nothing of the original charter remains. The two main players no longer have anything to do with the corporation, and it is no longer an investment in AATP and the BPOs it owns, but instead in H-TI and the shared ownership of BPOs." Not long after Ray took AATP over, saved the BPOs and has performed as RAW23 mentions.
Some know that Ray has achieved better in the past as he ran a 50 billion ISK year long bond returning "60.72% ROI per annum, 5.06% monthly dividend" here. --
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Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
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Posted - 2010.03.27 00:32:00 -
[14]
Apologies to the OP, Shar Quadri, for a bit more thread hijacking.
Originally by: RAW23 Jan 25th 2010 - 5 bil - 500mil fee Dec 25th 2009 - 13.5bil - 1500mil fee Sept 21st 2009 - 6.5bil - 650mil fee Aug 15th 2009 - 6.5bil - 650mil fee
Total dividends: 31.5 bil - 3.3bil fee = 28.2 bil to shareholders
= average monthly payment of 2.35bil or 247.37isk per share or 1.103% monthly return.
Had a look at my figures;
Just using the dates from when Ray took over (First report 2008.11.16)
Date Div/share NAV/share 2009.01.25 526.32 23,557.43 2009.12.25 1,421.15 23,684.76 2009.09.22 615.79 23,067.82 2009.08.16 615.79 23,594.73 2009.02.17 473.68 22,420.95 2009.01.18 526.31 12,646.59 2008.12.16 526.31 11,646.00 2008.11.16 1,526.31 11,852.94 So, taking the data for the last year (assuming the year started 2009.02.17 - afterall this is the payment for January), that makes a total of 3,652.73 ISK per share in dividends and a total of 1,136.48 ISK per share NAV increase.
Divided by the (just over) 12 months between 2009.02.17 and 2009.02.25 gives 304.39 ISK per share dividend average and 94.71 ISK per share NAV increase.
Using the 2009.02.17 NAV per share, that is a average 1.36% monthly dividend and average 0.42% monthly increase in NAV.
The sudden jump in NAV between 2009.01.18 and 2009.02.17 makes direct comparisons difficult, especially as it based upon a re-evaluation of fixed assets. The increase in NAV is also not worth anything to shareholders in EVE's reality until it can be realised (probably why there are not many capital growth ventures, and most that have existed have scammed).
I do have figures going back to the start of the corporation, and I make the running total amount paid as dividends per share as 11,970.19 ISK. While this exceeds the 10,000 ISK original share price, that 10,000 ISK value is still owed to the shareholder (or more if you use reported NAV values). This is also over a period that started with the first dividend payment on 2006.09.02 (I think the official launch was 2006.08.13). --
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.03.27 02:32:00 -
[15]
Edited by: RAW23 on 27/03/2010 02:33:20
Originally by: Marcus Baltar Alternative figures
The slight discrepancy between our figures is due to me counting the 12 months from the 1st of March 2009 - 28th February 2010 (the last 12 months). However, assuming that there is either a double payment this month or a triple payment next month (as there was in December), a portion of which can then be attributed to February 2010, my figures will be somewhat closer to yours. So yours are probably a fairer representation, assuming that Feb 2010 does get covered at a later date and one more dividend can be worked in to my figures. My NAV growth figures did start with the Feb 2009 report and ended with the Jan. 2010 report, so they are slightly out of sync with my dividend figures.
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CCP Applebabe
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Posted - 2010.03.27 05:34:00 -
[16]
Moved from Market Discussions.
Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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rubico1337
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.27 08:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: CCP Applebabe Moved from Market Discussions.
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. |
Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.27 12:47:00 -
[18]
1 day left for bidding folks. I have sent an email to Ray asking him to act as 3rd party in this transaction, waiting for him to reply. Will update as soon as I get a reply.
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.03.28 10:54:00 -
[19]
Originally by: RAW23 So, could someone explain to me what it is that makes these shares so attractive?
Who knows. The BPOs are being revalued currently, and will push the estimated asset value per share to around 28k. But it's a severely subjective area, people need to make their own interpretations of the value (as opposed to price) of the share.
Regarding your assumption I'm being dodgy by increasing the value of goodwill, maybe if you asked what it was instead of assuming the worst you wouldn't come across as such a nitpicking fool.
Regarding return on investment through dividends, I have no control over market prices; so I take it as people's faith in my ability, judgement and honesty.
Regarding return on investment measured against asset value, again I have no control over the market price of BPOs. But I appreciate you guys (mostly Marcus) thinking I do (it feeds my ego).
So, to try and answer your question - I think people have an attraction to AATP mostly because of it's share price growth; which is fuelled by the growth in the assets that back it.
Originally by: Marcus Baltar Found this though, enjoy;
"Regarding AATP, it is my opinion it should be liquidated. Nothing of the original charter remains. The two main players no longer have anything to do with the corporation, and it is no longer an investment in AATP and the BPOs it owns, but instead in H-TI and the shared ownership of BPOs." Not long after Ray took AATP over, saved the BPOs and has performed as RAW23 mentions.
I find it interesting you try to troll me with such idiotic material, surely there are many more valid alternatives to go with?
As you can see in that quote, I clearly state that AATP should be liquidated because it was no longer an investment in T2 BPOs, but an investment in various associates. That changed very soon after I took control when the assets were returned from those associates at my request. Now I know you can comprehend such a simple as this, so can only surmise it's just a pathetic attempt on your part to troll the Great Troll. Shame on you.
Originally by: Shar Quadri 1 day left for bidding folks. I have sent an email to Ray asking him to act as 3rd party in this transaction, waiting for him to reply. Will update as soon as I get a reply.
No problem.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.03.28 11:23:00 -
[20]
Edited by: RAW23 on 28/03/2010 11:25:28 Amazing. Nearly a full answer to the issues I raised. I see now that if I just ask the questions generally, rather than asking you anything, you might actually reply with some sense.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Regarding your assumption I'm being dodgy by increasing the value of goodwill, maybe if you asked what it was instead of assuming the worst you wouldn't come across as such a nitpicking fool.
Well, if there is an answer why don't you give it instead of insulting me. The answer is of interest only to me so you might want to let your shareholders know how this works.
As to why I made assumptions rather than asking you a question about it, well, lets see.
Your last three answers to the last question I asked you were:
Originally by: Ray McCormack
That doesn't even make sense. I'm done wasting my time with you.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23If so, could you clarify under what circumstances profit will become available?
When you stop being such a pedant. You're picking apart word semantics now, how is any of this constructive? I've answered your lame ****ing questions now, get over yourself.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23I'm just trying to understand what you mean by your statements
I'm not your kindergarten teacher, understand it on your time like the rest of the big boys.
And Breaker77, suck it man.
So, forgive me if I think that asking you questions is an exercise in futility.
To these we can add your highly professional responses to my questions the previous week:
When asked for detailed profit reports from EBANK:
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Here's your profit report. /me groin-thrusts.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
You're about as mature and sophisticated as a wet fart. Your thoughts and ideas even less so.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Sing me the one about how you jump off a cliff and die (ingame).
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: RAW23Worst excuse for poor performance ever.
Sorry, it's the best I could do whilst suffocating underneath your mom.
And then you asked the mods to lock your thread rather than actually try to answer any questions. That you now ask me why I didn't ask you another question is quite funny in these circumstances. But let's humour you - How do you justify increasing your goodwill valuation when it is, I am reliably informed, standard accounting practice to write off, over time, goodwill inherited from a corporate takeover.
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Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.28 11:44:00 -
[21]
I can't believe how you guys can derail and high jack my post like this. If you want to have a discussion about AATPH, why not make a post yourself and knock your self out. This was supposed to be a sell order, it has turned out anything but one.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.03.28 11:56:00 -
[22]
Edited by: RAW23 on 28/03/2010 11:59:21
Originally by: Shar Quadri I can't believe how you guys can derail and high jack my post like this. If you want to have a discussion about AATPH, why not make a post yourself and knock your self out. This was supposed to be a sell order, it has turned out anything but one.
Apologies for the to-ing and fro-ing between Ray and myself but the general question of what sort of value actually underlies these shares and how sound the accounts and returns are is directly relevant to those who might bid. The (lack of) character of the CEO is also relevant.
It's also worth noting that before people started offering comments on reasonable values for these shares you had overvalued them to such an extent that they attracted no bids at all. Since that discussion started you now have an offer at your new starting price. So the discussion has benefitted you as well as potential purchasers.
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Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.28 12:03:00 -
[23]
Originally by: RAW23 Edited by: RAW23 on 28/03/2010 11:59:21
Apologies for the to-ing and fro-ing between Ray and myself but the general question of what sort of value actually underlies these shares and how sound the accounts and returns are is directly relevant to those who might bid. The (lack of) character of the CEO is also relevant.
It's also worth noting that before people started offering comments on reasonable values for these shares you had overvalued them to such an extent that they attracted no bids at all. Since that discussion started you now have an offer at your new starting price. So the discussion has benefitted you as well as potential purchasers.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.03.28 12:20:00 -
[24]
Apologies again. Since you feel that strongly I have removed all my comments.
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Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.29 01:50:00 -
[25]
Bump - last day of auction folks.
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Chigy
Minmatar Sausage Banking
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Posted - 2010.03.29 04:36:00 -
[26]
A - J
Bid 26.5 k
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Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.29 10:57:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Chigy A - J
Bid 26.5 k
Already have a bid of 26.5 K from Athias Chigy. Min increment is 500 isk.
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Shar Quadri
Caldari AmCO
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Posted - 2010.03.29 22:23:00 -
[28]
Bump- Less than an hour to go on this auction.
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Athias
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Posted - 2010.04.02 12:01:00 -
[29]
For good measure ( not that anyone will notice since it will be back to page 1 gazillion in no time in this subforum )I should post and say "ISK sent", "Shares recieved" through Ray as 3rd party
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Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
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Posted - 2010.04.02 12:51:00 -
[30]
Why are MD threads getting moved to sell orders? This makes no sense.
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