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Olryn
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Posted - 2010.03.22 12:55:00 -
[1]
I've read a ton of Raven fitting threads, and I seem to be missing something basic. I've got the basic gank Raven fit suggested by Liang, and I know the theory is you run the shield booster when you're down to about 30% shields, and run the capacitor booster when you're down in the 40% range or so to take advantage of max recharge. My problem is that I just don't seem to have enough regen to make this work - if my shields are at 30%, it's because I'm getting hammered with enough incoming fire that I have to run it full out to avoid going down into armor, so I wind up running both boosters nonstop for a while. I've got most of the shield skills at lvl 4, with shield compensation and management at 3 (those are the next to train). I've only got 700k in missiles, but I do have t2 drones for dealing with frigates.
I ran The Assault vs Serpentis (I'm in Minmatar space since that's where my friends are), and had to ask a friend to help when I couldn't take the 10 battleships in the first pocket wailing on me. Here's the fit I used, EFT shows 136/506 defense and 306 missile dps with my skills (only having cruise and Caldari BS at 3 hurt my dps, I'm sure):
[Raven, Spacecataz - Serpentis] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25 X-Large Clarity Ward Booster I Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Ballistic Deflection Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5
It's usually not getting scrammed that gives me problems, it's just the overall level of incoming damage. Are my skills just too low for a gank fit, or am I missing something? I do try to keep moving to cut down on missile damage, fit rat specific hardeners, read the mission guides to manage triggers properly, etc.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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Bad Borris
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:17:00 -
[2]
More missile skills. Energy management to V asap. switching out the 2nd ballistic deflection field with a shield boost amplifier might also help.
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Ernesto DaSilva
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:20:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Olryn 306 missile dps with my skills
I'd say it's just that. 306 dps are really really pitiful for a BS. In that dimension the rats tanks are still noticeable. You simply take too much time to cut down incoming dps to take stress off your tank.
short term enhancement: replace your shield booster by a more cap-efficient deadspace booster.
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Shatner19
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:21:00 -
[4]
serpentis generally does more thermal damage than kinetic so i think your hardeners are slightly off. If you can i would sacrifice the target painter for another thermal hardener.
how are your shield skills? shield operations to 5 reduces your shield recharge by 25% and shield management increases the base HP of your shields. maxing though 2 skills out adds a significant amount of passive recharge to your shields. So at 33% shield HP, the shield recharge should hold steady. I used to mission with a rokh and with those 2 skills at 5/4 and a 4 hardener setup and 2pdus my eft sustained defense was near 125dps.
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General Trajan
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:24:00 -
[5]
well for starters i really think you need BS-4 trained 1st before stepping into L4s solo. but that's just my opinion! 2nd i really think it best to be able to use T2 xl-boosters and booster amps. if not then get faction as it'll help your tank greatly.
now i have a problem with using cap boosters on any PVE setup. sure you need them for pvp because of nueting mostly, but for pve it's pure sissy mode. since you are using a xl-booster then get rid of that cap booster for a shield boost amplifier. also, get rid of the damage control in favor of a 2nd power diagnostic-II. and drop at least one rigor rig for a CCC as i think your tanking skillz are a bit too low UNLESS you go out and get a caldari navy xl-booster and boost amp.
with those changes and suggestions will be my exact raven fit i started out with and never lost it. in fact only had to warp out once ever with it under that setup (screwed up and got greedy with a full room aggro). another thing is you need to put out some more damage! T1 cruise is crappy. best to foot the bill and keep faction in stock till you can use T2 cruise.<---by that time you should be in a CNR
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zzCoins
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:26:00 -
[6]
"Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25"
I hope you did not mean this
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Olryn
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:29:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Olryn on 22/03/2010 13:29:53
Originally by: zzCoins "Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25"
I hope you did not mean this
Oops, didn't fix that when I exported to EFT - I'm using 800s, which now shows my sustained defense at 467. Is "sustained" just running the shield booster, and "peak" running both boosters?
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Amat3uR
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:30:00 -
[8]
Prob just not enough DPS
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Ernesto DaSilva
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:33:00 -
[9]
another point: are you moving? you should, to decrease incoming dps. and because speed is such a good tank i'd suggest an AB (a republic fleet AB consumes very little cap!) over a shield boost amp any day - just not when you expect to be webbed for a long time.
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General Trajan
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ernesto DaSilva another point: are you moving? you should, to decrease incoming dps. and because speed is such a good tank i'd suggest an AB (a republic fleet AB consumes very little cap!) over a shield boost amp any day - just not when you expect to be webbed for a long time.
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Ernesto DaSilva
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:38:00 -
[11]
Originally by: General Trajan
Originally by: Ernesto DaSilva another point: are you moving? you should, to decrease incoming dps. and because speed is such a good tank i'd suggest an AB (a republic fleet AB consumes very little cap!) over a shield boost amp any day - just not when you expect to be webbed for a long time.
hm?
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General Trajan
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ernesto DaSilva
Originally by: General Trajan
Originally by: Ernesto DaSilva another point: are you moving? you should, to decrease incoming dps. and because speed is such a good tank i'd suggest an AB (a republic fleet AB consumes very little cap!) over a shield boost amp any day - just not when you expect to be webbed for a long time.
hm?
it's a cruise raven. not a AC mach or phoon that does need an AB to get in range. sure you'll need to move around a little to keep down dps a bit early on with low skills, but not that much! and no it's not better than the use of a shield boost amp in this regard.
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Sigaar
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:44:00 -
[13]
What do you expect with this kind of skills?
Cruise missile IV-V BS IV Target Navigation prediction IV Missile bombardment IV Missile projection IV Warhead upgrades III Rapid Launch IV Weapon upgrades IV
TLDR you need around 2.5m in missiles or so.
ALSO i dont think there are missions where 10 battleships should shoot you at once. You might be doing smth wrong with pulling. Check eve-survival.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.03.22 13:56:00 -
[14]
Not enough gank. I'm thinking you need to emphasize tank until you get your missile skills up. You can't really get an XL Booster to last long enough for 300 DPS to kill the NPCs, so you can try using a Large SB and cap mods to increase tank time. You're looking at a 400 sustained tank against serpentis.
You really need T2 boosters (better cap to shield point ratio) and T2 cruise missiles (so you can use Fury missiles against battleships.) You can also try using Caldari Navy cruise missiles for an expensive 15% bump in DPS.
[Raven, Long running SB] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II
Large Shield Booster II (Requires Shield Operations IV) Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Shield Boost Amplifier I Shield Boost Amplifier I Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2010.03.22 14:04:00 -
[15]
I'll add a few tips;
* dump the painter for another hardener * overheat one of the primary dmg hardeners when you need peak tank (an oveheated T2 hardener has better stats than the best deadspace hardener) * kill BCs first as they go very fast and do considerable dps * fitting a coproc instead of the pds might enable you to fit a T2 XL shield booster * using proper ammo and tank vs the rats you are facing is obvious
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Ernesto DaSilva
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Posted - 2010.03.22 14:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: General Trajan it's a cruise raven. not a AC mach or phoon that does need an AB to get in range. sure you'll need to move around a little to keep down dps a bit early on with low skills, but not that much! and no it's not better than the use of a shield boost amp in this regard.
i wasn't thinking of the need to get in range. obviously the incoming dps still is too high for him, so movement will help and quicker movement will help more. also, an AB helps to back up quickly when needed. however, i just said i'd suggest an AB over an SBA - anyone should figure out what suits him best on his own.
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Missm Uppet
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Posted - 2010.03.22 14:41:00 -
[17]
What are your energy management skills like? As others have said, train energy management to 5 when you can (4 is decent). Make sure you get energy systems operation to 5 though - asap (it's a tier 1 skill so it should only take 4 days to get to 5).
Get rid of the cap booster and put on a SBA (at least in the long run that's what you should be aiming for). Add a hardner and remove the TP; the painter is just helping you take down cruiser size stuff down faster and you need to be focused on tanking right now. Really pay attention to your resists and experiment if needed. You should be fitting 2x thermal hardners and 1x ballistic for serpentis, not the other way around. Putting on 2x and 2x will really decrease the incoming effective DPS.
Add the target painter back on when your skills are a lot better and you're able to tank most missions without much problem.
Get rid of at least 1 of the rigors for a CCC as someone else suggested above.
Bottom line: yeah your skills right now are pretty low to be flying any kind of gank bs around. Stick to tank and basic damage improvement. If you have to warp out on missions you are losing a ton of effciency -more efficiency than any gank vs tank setup is going to justify.
You do have the right idea though, gank is what you should be shooting for in the long run. I hate seeing stuff like DCUs in the lows and all the other extra cautious bull crap people usually show me on their Raven setup.
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.22 14:53:00 -
[18]
A lot of it has to do with the Assault itself, serpentis blaster BS do a lot of damage if you let them get near you and that's a high dps room in the first place. Don't sit still! you have enormous range, make the most of it.
Run AE4 ( not the bonus ) and then see how your tank is. That's much nearer an "average" mission.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.03.22 15:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Olryn I know the theory is you run the shield booster when you're down to about 30% shields, and run the capacitor booster when you're down in the 40% range or so to take advantage of max recharge.
Be careful with slavish adherence to this. As long as the booster exceeds the incoming dps, it's fine. However, if the incoming dps exceeds the booster, what's going to save you is the buffer until you manage whittle down the incoming dps to manageable level.
That's how CNR with small efficient boosters work in general. It does't work well on a Raven because it has too little buffer.
Originally by: Olryn Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
* A properly managed aggro for The Assault L4 Serp should NOT have all 10x BS firing at you at the same time. Use the Eve Survival guide. * A painter is nice, but if you don't have a CNR for this particular mission, drop it for a 4th hardener to increase your buffer - hence you buy a bit more time. * Skill up somemore with missiles and at least get BS 4.
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Birdman Ravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.22 15:25:00 -
[20]
Keep the shield at 70%-90% instead of 30%. When your tank runs out you'll still have a decent HP buffer to deal with scrambling frigs and warp out without armor damage. My Ravens (literally, all of them) have unrepped armor and hull damage in spite of perfect tanking skills and high Raven-related DPS skills. IMO a gank Raven just has a thin tank, that's why we call it a gank Raven.
In my skillset, a T2 XL shield booster adds an extra 80DPS of tank, so I'd recommend that as a goal for now.
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Olryn
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Posted - 2010.03.22 15:26:00 -
[21]
Thanks so much for all the help! It looks like I have some skill work to do, those 5%/3%s don't seem like much but I guess they add up.
Originally by: stoicfaux Not enough gank. I'm thinking you need to emphasize tank until you get your missile skills up. You can't really get an XL Booster to last long enough for 300 DPS to kill the NPCs, so you can try using a Large SB and cap mods to increase tank time. You're looking at a 400 sustained tank against serpentis.
Could you explain this one? So a XL isn't as good as an L in this case? I'm still learning the way all the stats work. I can actually use a Large Shield Booster II (not the X-Large though), is this a better option than the one I have now?
Also - once I start getting a decent amount of cash saved up, is a CNR a better first choice than faction BCUs/launchers? And, can someone point me at an up-to-date listing of what each enemy type is most vulnerable to - the couple I've seen on the forums have ended with "is this up to date?" :)
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Dacryphile
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Posted - 2010.03.22 15:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: stoicfaux Not enough gank...
[Raven, Long running SB] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II
Large Shield Booster II (Requires Shield Operations IV) Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Shield Boost Amplifier I Shield Boost Amplifier I Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Yet ironically, his set up has more gank than yours.
OP, I'm thinking it is your missile skills holding you back. Getting BS, cruise, and rapid lauch to IV asap. Then warhead upgrades, guided missile precision, and target nav.
Originally by: Doc Robertson ...take a good look at this pic and tell us which one is you.
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Birdman Ravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.03.22 15:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Olryn Could you explain this one? So a XL isn't as good as an L in this case? I'm still learning the way all the stats work. I can actually use a Large Shield Booster II (not the X-Large though), is this a better option than the one I have now?
Out of all the standard shield boosters, the T2 gives the most HP for your cap. So a T2 shield booster is always going to be a better option than best named.
You'll have to get used to repping 2% per cycle. It requires a change in tactics - repping to keep the shields at a much higher level is part of that IMO. Try it against a lesser mission to get the hang of it, and if it doesn't suit you keep training for a T2 XL booster.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.03.22 15:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dacryphile
Yet ironically, his set up has more gank than yours.
Reading comprehension ftw!
The OP doesn't have enough gank nor enough tank. The OP's tank runs out before gank can reduce incoming DPS to a manageable level. The OP then has to warp out. Warping out *greatly* reduces your DPS. Ergo, increase tank at expense of gank in order to increase DPS. Simple, quiaff?
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Ernesto DaSilva
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Posted - 2010.03.22 15:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Olryn Could you explain this one? So a XL isn't as good as an L in this case?
No - as long as we're tech I/II talking, all shield boosters of same name (that's meta-level) have same efficiency.
E.g.: Large Shield Booster II: 240 hp boost for 160 cap = 1.5 hp/cap X-Large Shield Booster II: 600 hp boost for 400 cap = 1.5 hp/cap
So if swapping an X-L for an L (of same name) you "just" trade hp boost per second for lower fitting requirements. IMO that just delivers to those whose (gank)skills allow for a much weaker tank for the opportunity to just turn on the SB and forget about it, thus not having to cycle it. In your case the X-L SB will provide you a much better oh ****-buffer.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.03.22 16:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ernesto DaSilva
edit: That fitting posted by stoicfaux looks really terrible. I think you'd be better off using a Drake instead of that one.
Of course it's terrible. It's going to be terrible until the OP can use T2 launchers. However, as you pointed out, a tech II booster is more efficient then a named booster. The OP was using a T1 XL Booster which was draining his cap too quickly. A T2 XL requires a level 5 skill to use. The T2 Large booster requires a level 4 skill. In theory, it should be easy to train up for the t2 Large, and benefit from the improved efficiency instead of continuing to use the less efficient t1 XL booster.
However, I think you hit on a true solution with the Drake recommendation.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Bank Cashier
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Posted - 2010.03.22 17:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Bank Cashier on 22/03/2010 17:58:31 Edited by: Bank Cashier on 22/03/2010 17:57:52 Honestly I prefer the large SB over an XL, I like my perma tank as I can ease my way through a mission having to do nothing but control-click and F1 targets. Without drones, 344 DPS Regular Missiles, 396 with Caldari Navy Cruises (Which I use), add drones and your quickly up to 510-520 dps with hammerheads and decent drone skills to L4.
EDIT: This fit is for Guristas dmg, it tanks 610dps with my fit and skills. If resists are adjusted per rat, you should be able to tank 550-640dps depending on if EM if used or not.
[Raven, Mission Runner Arby] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Capacitor Flux Coil II Capacitor Flux Coil II
Shield Boost Amplifier I Large Shield Booster II Heat Dissipation Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile Drone Link Augmentor I Small Tractor Beam I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead I x5 Hobgoblin I x5
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Kail Storm
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.03.22 18:41:00 -
[28]
Please use a drake until you can use a decent active setup....Drake will out tank that any day and is way more SP forgiving.
Peeps often quote LVL 5 as they should since that is a general baseline but they forget some ships performance drops off Very Very quikly or in most cases is dependent upon that last few percentages of Tank/DPS to truly be viable.
At 300 DPS the Drakes tank will hold since it was designed to hold at 300 DPS, the Raven was designed to be spitting out 5-800 DPS to tank its enemies...Its pretty simple IMO.
This is why the great "Tengu" Movement has become so popular and why I did this...While I know the BS route to be the ultimate I cannot wait the extra 60 Days Or so that it takes so while Im i na Decent 600 DPS Tengu that I shared so many skils already with I am getting prep`d for the ultimate CNR where I am All Lvl 5 skilled and will whipe thru missions 15% Faster than Tengu...
So go Drake while your skills increase and Hop in a subsytem Lvl 4 Tengu with a pithi b small shield Booster and spit out 580 DPS while tanking most everything until you can get in the king of ships.
IMO it doesnt make sense to bang your head against the wall and warp out often and do missions in slow ass times when you could be i na ship that is overall slower than the BS`s lvl 5 toon. Warp outs and even ship loses take more time than using a lesser ship class that you can become good in very quilkly. -------------------------------------------------- "If Eve Was P*rn, It would be a Snuff film, First you get screwed then you get killed" -Me
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Moonduste
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Posted - 2010.03.22 18:54:00 -
[29]
Yikes, as someone that was ready to go into a Raven soon, this has kinda scared me:) I'm a newer player as well, but I guess i should just up my missile skills and stick with my drake a while longer. That means guess I'll be grinding level 3 quests (i just opened up level 4 quests, but i hear drakes cant really do many level 4 quests unless they are truely pimped).
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Sonreir
Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Trinova
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Posted - 2010.03.22 19:16:00 -
[30]
Make sure you're using the correct damage type as well. Cataclysm missiles for Serpentis, Devestator for Angels, Wrath for Gursita, and Paradise for Drones, Bloods, and Sanshas.
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