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Boogie Bobby
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Posted - 2010.03.24 00:31:00 -
[1]
I've been wondering if those of you who are successful in EVE, financially or otherwise, are successful in the same way in real life?
I know gamers, especially MMO type get the basement dweller stereotype but there's clearly some talent among the eve types. Alliance leadership, master trader, production and logistics etc etc all benefit from some form of ability(other than fastest button masher) that fits into a variety of real world jobs.
Personally my real life talents don't translate into the game and I don't have an eye for business, so it hasn't done anything for me in EVE. You?
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Legende
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.03.24 00:39:00 -
[2]
I would say I'm fairly successful in life... not rich or anything, but I get by well enough to support my wife and coming child on my salary alone in midwest USA. I also consider myself fairly successful in EVE, though again not rich or anything like 50b+ in assets.
However my real life has no translation to my game life since I'm a level two technician for enterprise hardware tech support for a leading computer manufacturer.
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Atima
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.24 00:58:00 -
[3]
My time and experience within eve helped me pick a career and I use the skills from work within eve.
I would consider myself successful in RL, but nothing particularly special.
Being successful in EVE may directly help in one way with RL and that is hard work and dedication. But simply being 'good' at EVE does not translate to RL success.
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.03.24 00:59:00 -
[4]
tbh looking in the mirror, i see alot of wasted potential :)
i dont run a succesfull ipo irl, and never had :) im not rich, wife is the majority income in our home. i am however a very successful dad, friend, a good contryman, i consider myself moraly and ethical upright etc.
and i hope in the future that i will make my contribution to the real world in the form of a unity theory in physics :)
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Atima
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.24 01:12:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Ji Sama
tbh looking in the mirror, i see alot of wasted potential :)
i dont run a succesfull ipo irl, and never had :) im not rich, wife is the majority income in our home. i am however a very successful dad, friend, a good contryman, i consider myself moraly and ethical upright etc.
and i hope in the future that i will make my contribution to the real world in the form of a unity theory in physics :)
As is said here, maybe if everyone put the time and dedication that they put into eve elsewhere they would be more successful. However where is the fun in that?
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.03.24 01:20:00 -
[6]
I fail just as badly at real life as I do at eve.
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Rykker Bow
Gallente
The Blackfold Brotherhood
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Posted - 2010.03.24 01:25:00 -
[7]
As Joe Walsh says, I'm an ordinary average guy. Middle of the road kind of guy with a house in the suburbs and a picket fence, a great wife and 2.3 kids. Drink beers with friends and BBQ everychance I get.
Life's not bad. Not bad at all. 
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Holdings
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Posted - 2010.03.24 01:44:00 -
[8]
Edited by: SetrakDark on 24/03/2010 01:44:13
I think a big part of why I enjoy Eve is because I get to exercise my more base desires of power, greed, and competition, whereas in real life I am currently postponing opportunities for advancement so I can work on something that I am passionate about and that I think is important.
The difference between Eve and other games is that you can advance by playing smart and thinking outside the box, whereas most other games it's simply a matter of committing more hours to the 1-3 min/maxed playstyles.
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Redshirt I
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Posted - 2010.03.24 01:49:00 -
[9]
The really dangerous part is how I am starting to think this day trading is pretty easy and need to do it IRL.
Red
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.03.24 02:42:00 -
[10]
Two factors play against each other here. On the one hand, if you have the talent to succeed in eve then you probably have the talent to succeed in many areas of real life. However, if you have the inclination to succeed in eve you may well not have such an inclination in real life (at least, in terms of the common measures of success, such as wealth, advancement in your profession, etc). Similarly, if your real life job is extremely time-consuming and you have other time sinks, like a family (I pray my wife never sees that description  ), it is unlikely that you will have the time to become an eve trillionaire.
Personally, I do ok in RL but my second degree probably took an extra year to finish because I found a game called Hearts of Iron II. If I had found eve during that time, I dread to think what would have happened.
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Kenz Rider
J Club
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Posted - 2010.03.24 03:24:00 -
[11]
Studying markets in EVE has certainly helped me in furthering my knowledge about real world financial markets, where I am engaged professionally.
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xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.03.24 03:45:00 -
[12]
I'm neither rich in EVE nor irl. Just one of deadbeats lying around here and there barely makes his living and eve subscription. 
But hey, this game gets me pay attention on commodity price index, which I find very intriguing. I wish I could drop 10B there like I could in EVE, seriously. |
Umega
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.03.24 03:45:00 -
[13]
I heard..
One of them real life pirates off South Africa in the Indian Ocean.. plays EVE.
----------------------------------------
-Treat the EVE Market like you're a pimp and it is your 'employee'.. freely fondle it as you wish and make it pay you for it- |
Aluin Chaput
Caldari
Metanoia.
Consortium.
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Posted - 2010.03.24 05:03:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Umega
I heard..
One of them real life pirates off South Africa in the Indian Ocean.. plays EVE.
His name is.... Chribba!
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Syds Sinclair
J0urneys End
Journeys End Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.24 06:10:00 -
[15]
..Well, in a backwards kind of way, Eve success = real life success for me. Having something I enjoy doing (Eve being my current video game fix, along with a few other hobbies I partake in) helps me get through the day of work. Being able to come home and mess with Eve (and the wife & kids) makes it all worth it. All work and no play makes Syds a dull female avatar who really is a guy.
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ITSAssassin
Royal Manufacturing and Blueprint Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.03.24 07:45:00 -
[16]
I am Warren Buffet in RL, and...
Riethe is Burnie Madoff....lol.
Riethe's in jail with a tiny tiny laptop scamming for billions. Just give it up man!!!
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ChrisIsherwood
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Posted - 2010.03.24 08:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kenz Rider
Studying markets in EVE has certainly helped me in furthering my knowledge about real world financial markets, where I am engaged professionally.
Trendy
Economists learning from cyber-economies
Virtual Labs
Or did you mean you were telling all your clients you were leaving the firm and if they mailed you money you would return them triple?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.03.24 09:54:00 -
[18]
The thing is double faced for me.
I have always been successful in MMOs (good money, being in some of the top "guilds") but usually fail in RL.
I could have been quite rich in RL due to several opportunities (I even had 2 companies at a certain point) but these opportunities ALWAYS required me to step down of my just idiotic honesty principles and so I always refused to go ahead and grab them.
Something that EvE greatly helped me at, has been at learning and understanding economy and markets. I started EvE as total ignorant and now I can go and kick my banker's butt if any of their 10000 badly crafted false statements or contracts impact on me.
I even learned how to trade IRL and have done some of it, but thinking I am actually subtracting money off people who could end up without a meal because I took their money makes me feel bad so I mostly stopped doing it.
Yeah I am not definitely the smartest or opportunist guy out there 
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ran Khanon
Amarr
Vengeance Innovations
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Posted - 2010.03.24 10:11:00 -
[19]
Confirming I'm a homeless bum is EVE as well as rl. My virtual and real lives are both plagued by misfortune and I am forced to make use of the charity of others despite my wishes and best efforts to be self sustaining.
Please send me some isk so I can buy a birthday present for my child.
I know a roll of toilet paper makes for a great mummy suit gift but that is what I gave for Christmas already.
Help us to make parrots game related today! |
Tyranus vonCarstein
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.03.24 10:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
I fail just as badly at real life as I do at eve.
If you've failed at eve I guess I should change my defination of success? 
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Ping Bong
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Posted - 2010.03.24 11:19:00 -
[21]
i do see the similarity of being ridiculously over rewarded for miniscule effort both in eve and irl. while my real occupation(or lack there of) has little to do with what i do in eve they both essentially profit off others lazyness
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2010.03.24 11:24:00 -
[22]
While most studies (at least those that make the press) about games/gamers/RL deal with how (virtual) violence influences social behavior, I remember that I once read a study where "leadership skills" were reviewed.
Do those who lead a successful corp (guild) or are good FCs (raid leaders) in MMOs make for good superiors in RL? The outcome was pretty in favor of (MMO) gaming. The bottom line was along the lines of: "To successfully manage/lead/supervise a group of people in a game, given all the restrictions present (no real authority, group members often do not even know each others outside the game, very limiting means of communication/organization etc.), requires good social skills. Skills that are also very helpful for the same task (running a department etc.) in RL."
Which doesn't equate to "you will make millions in RL", because it takes more than this to successfully create/run an enterprise. But it sure helps.
--
EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2010.03.24 12:18:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween
The outcome was pretty in favor of (MMO) gaming.
How is this in favor of MMO gaming?
What you did describe was a correlation without any notion of causality.
Personally, I would assume that those properties/predispositions that make you a good leader IRL also make you a good leader in MMO-style games - not that being a good leader in a MMO makes you a good/better leader IRL.
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Laetha
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.24 12:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/03/2010 09:55:50
>snip<
I started EvE as total ignorant and now I can go and kick my banker's butt if any of their 10000 badly crafted false statements or contracts impact on me.
This, if anything. My exaggerated paranoia in EVE has spilled over into RL and given me a healthy paranoia of any contract I enter into. My reluctance to be scammed in game = much more dilligence outside of the game when my real hard earned dollars are on the line.
I'm not blazingly successful RL as of yet, but my fiscal management and budgeting have improved tremendously since playing EVE. I'm close to escaping debt prison, and will be looking to invest to a far greater degree than I have at any other point in my life. So, win I guess. No other game has impacted my RL as much as this one has.
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Riethe
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Posted - 2010.03.24 12:53:00 -
[25]
my grades have dropped across the board except for social studies where I am doing great
if you knew the age of some of the posters in this thread, it would crack you up too
17 y/o kid posting about how his stock portfolio is expanding and he's on par with the teller at CHASE bank
good goin
come here let me ruffle up your hair
you're a good kid
really
stay out of trouble
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Iosue
Gangrel Mining and Security
High Treason Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.24 14:43:00 -
[26]
i'm successful in RL; have loving family and friends, great career, get to travel, own a couple of homes, a ranch, sports car, etc. however, i don't play eve with the same goals in mind that i have for RL. i play to have fun, meet new people, and to live out a childhood fantasy of having a space mining company .
i guess it all depends on your definition of success. even though i'm not a super billionaire in game, i consider myself successful because it serves the purpose i intend it to; entertainment. i would consider my eve time a failure if i had all the responsibilties and stresses of those who run 1000+ man alliances or huge corporations.
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Pesky LaRue
Minmatar
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
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Posted - 2010.03.24 15:57:00 -
[27]
I'm successful in life in a bunch of minor and major ways (I have a great job, a wonderful girlfriend, no money worries, and am a good dad) but the things I take into EvE that make me successful there are the same traits that have made me successful in RL - I'm hardworking, diligent, observant and honest, and all those qualities have benefited me both in RL and in EvE.
Have I started a successful business like I have in EvE? Nope, but if there was a way for me to grind as much cash as I want by killing, looting and selling to get a huge stake to buy the means of production, maybe I would :P
.
[Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels] |
Berenices Herculina
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.03.24 16:12:00 -
[28]
'Money Makin Money Money Makin Manhattan'
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
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Posted - 2010.03.24 16:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cyaxares II
How is this in favor of MMO gaming?
What you did describe was a correlation without any notion of causality.
Because the study was about "kids" which happen not to have any leadership positions in RL yet, but developed themselves the same skills (often without noticing it), that successfull team leaders have in their jobs.
And in favor of MMOs, because this study encouraged recruiters to activly seek for those guys, whereas before "playing MMOs" was (and still is) a secret "will not hire" flag for recruiters.
Quote:
Personally, I would assume that those properties/predispositions [...]
Sure it's a prepostition. But first developed in a game (in this case) before recognized in RL.
--
EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Chronos VIII
Amarr
GK inc.
Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.03.24 16:56:00 -
[30]
Say money bring *****es, *****es bring lies
One *****'s gettin jealous, and mother****ers dies...
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.03.24 19:56:00 -
[31]
Edited by: SencneS on 24/03/2010 19:56:34
I hope not!!!
In EVE I'm a failure... And the bane of evil in some peoples eyes.
In RL I'm oddly wealthy financially, spiritual, mentally, socially and family. Though I lack "wealth" in the physical sense.
Edit:- YAY for Page 2 First post!
Amarr for Life |
RAW23
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:03:00 -
[32]
Originally by: SencneS
Edited by: SencneS on 24/03/2010 19:56:34
I hope not!!!
In EVE I'm a failure... And the bane of evil in some peoples eyes.
You're confusing yourself with Ray.
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namron 7
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:17:00 -
[33]
I run my own business in real life so i know all about margins and i wish that in the real world you can have as much knowledge as you do in this game. there is no aspect in this game that you cannot find out as regards to markets.
I love MMOs that have an open economy as most people do not understand them and there is no reason they should.
Whenever i play i always end up getting incredibly rich very quickly as i know what i am looking for.
I am 25 days into this game and i made 100 million in three days, but admittedly i did place for 14 hours a day for those three days. If i had more training there is no limit to what i could make.
Im out for a week now as i have everything i need i am just waiting for a few skills to finish
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Riethe
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Posted - 2010.03.24 20:20:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Riethe on 24/03/2010 20:20:25
post in this thread to officially add yourself to the list of confirmed narcissistic eve players
postin
edit: from my yacht
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Lemage
Fine Goods for Fine Gentlemen
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:15:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Lemage on 24/03/2010 21:15:20
In real life I am a loser. In eve I am pretty awesome.
I tend to spend more time in eve, than in real life.
Coincidence? I think not!
Originally by: Riethe
Edited by: Riethe on 24/03/2010 20:20:25
postin
edit: from my yacht
posting
edit: from my bed
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Flitterby
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Posted - 2010.03.24 21:41:00 -
[36]
Here's a link to a Harvard Business Review article about MMOs and leadership (perhaps what an earlier poster was referring to).
http://hbr.org/2008/05/leaderships-online-labs/ar/1
Unfortunately you won't be able to read beyond the first page without a subscription.
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Taram Caldar
Blackwater USA Inc.
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:07:00 -
[37]
TBH I think it's the other way around.
RL Success/Potential = EVE Success
Whereas EVE Success does not necessarily = RL Success..
If you're successful or have great potential to be successful in RL and you dedicate any kind of time to EVE odds are you're going to be successful in the game. However, just being good in the game doesn't mean you're going to be good @ RL. The two aren't hand-in-hand.
Market Alerts Mailing List
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Deathduet
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.24 23:09:00 -
[38]
Recently maybe 2 weeks ago I had my biggest market order sell out.... Within the same week I got a 2nd job irl.. So.. maybe? Perhaps.
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:03:00 -
[39]
If success is making enormous amounts of money then I fail hard at EVE and life. But if success is having a loving family, a wife and daughter who love you beyond everything else then you can't get more successfull than me.
I'm not wealthy and I just don't care. If money was the end all and be all of all things then why do these rich people die horribly of cancer and other diseases? I just want to die knowing I am loved, knowing I won't be alone. That is how I see EVE, this is an MMO and without (virtual) friends you're nobody, a loner whining on the boards how CCP should change the mechanics of the game to accomodate the fact that you just haven't realised this is a Massive Multiplayer game.
The word success is far too often attached to financial wealth and greed. I'm lawful good in life and in game, to my own detriment and that's just the way I am.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Super Whopper
If success is making enormous amounts of money then I fail hard at EVE and life. But if success is having a loving family, a wife and daughter who love you beyond everything else then you can't get more successfull than me.
I'm not wealthy and I just don't care. If money was the end all and be all of all things then why do these rich people die horribly of cancer and other diseases? I just want to die knowing I am loved, knowing I won't be alone. That is how I see EVE, this is an MMO and without (virtual) friends you're nobody, a loner whining on the boards how CCP should change the mechanics of the game to accomodate the fact that you just haven't realised this is a Massive Multiplayer game.
The word success is far too often attached to financial wealth and greed. I'm lawful good in life and in game, to my own detriment and that's just the way I am.
What about those who have family and are rich... Just because you're rich doesn't deny you anything else. Only poor people say "I'm rich because I have a family that loves me." Those around me are as wealthy as I, we all have families. We all BBQ in the summer time, good friends, and family all in a community. The only thing wealth gives you is security of having money, and not having to use the self deluded excuse "At least I have a loving family!!!"
That's one thing I always disliked about cartoons and shows about the wealthy having no friends or appears longly, that is not the case. Congratulations for getting sucked into the believe that a corporate big wigs and those considerably more wealthy then most here want you to believe.. "NO, NO, Being rich is HORRIBLE! You lose friends, you lose family because they always fight over everything, you don't want to become as wealthy as I because I'm sad, lonely and depressed.."
Amarr for Life |
Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:44:00 -
[41]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Super Whopper
If success is making enormous amounts of money then I fail hard at EVE and life. But if success is having a loving family, a wife and daughter who love you beyond everything else then you can't get more successfull than me.
I'm not wealthy and I just don't care. If money was the end all and be all of all things then why do these rich people die horribly of cancer and other diseases? I just want to die knowing I am loved, knowing I won't be alone. That is how I see EVE, this is an MMO and without (virtual) friends you're nobody, a loner whining on the boards how CCP should change the mechanics of the game to accomodate the fact that you just haven't realised this is a Massive Multiplayer game.
The word success is far too often attached to financial wealth and greed. I'm lawful good in life and in game, to my own detriment and that's just the way I am.
What about those who have family and are rich... Just because you're rich doesn't deny you anything else. Only poor people say "I'm rich because I have a family that loves me." Those around me are as wealthy as I, we all have families. We all BBQ in the summer time, good friends, and family all in a community. The only thing wealth gives you is security of having money, and not having to use the self deluded excuse "At least I have a loving family!!!"
That's one thing I always disliked about cartoons and shows about the wealthy having no friends or appears longly, that is not the case. Congratulations for getting sucked into the believe that a corporate big wigs and those considerably more wealthy then most here want you to believe.. "NO, NO, Being rich is HORRIBLE! You lose friends, you lose family because they always fight over everything, you don't want to become as wealthy as I because I'm sad, lonely and depressed.."
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Iosue
Gangrel Mining and Security
High Treason Alliance
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Super Whopper
If success is making enormous amounts of money then I fail hard at EVE and life. But if success is having a loving family, a wife and daughter who love you beyond everything else then you can't get more successfull than me.
I'm not wealthy and I just don't care. If money was the end all and be all of all things then why do these rich people die horribly of cancer and other diseases? I just want to die knowing I am loved, knowing I won't be alone. That is how I see EVE, this is an MMO and without (virtual) friends you're nobody, a loner whining on the boards how CCP should change the mechanics of the game to accomodate the fact that you just haven't realised this is a Massive Multiplayer game.
The word success is far too often attached to financial wealth and greed. I'm lawful good in life and in game, to my own detriment and that's just the way I am.
What about those who have family and are rich... Just because you're rich doesn't deny you anything else. Only poor people say "I'm rich because I have a family that loves me." Those around me are as wealthy as I, we all have families. We all BBQ in the summer time, good friends, and family all in a community. The only thing wealth gives you is security of having money, and not having to use the self deluded excuse "At least I have a loving family!!!"
That's one thing I always disliked about cartoons and shows about the wealthy having no friends or appears longly, that is not the case. Congratulations for getting sucked into the believe that a corporate big wigs and those considerably more wealthy then most here want you to believe.. "NO, NO, Being rich is HORRIBLE! You lose friends, you lose family because they always fight over everything, you don't want to become as wealthy as I because I'm sad, lonely and depressed.."
While wealth doesnÆt prevent you from having friends and family, it does impose its own burden on you. This of course assumes you have something to do with your own wealth and that it wasnÆt handed to you in a trust fund and managed for you. Having wealth carries with it responsibility and stress; maintaining that wealth doesnÆt come without its difficulties. If you have more, you have more to lose; you have to be vigilant against those looking to take it from you (RL scammers and the Government) and you most likely have others depending on you (family, staff, beneficiaries, non-profits).
Being a corporate big wig entails a lot of work and stress as well; I know this from experience. You donÆt get to be the boss without sacrificing a lot of your own desires and time. Sure itÆs nice to have a corner office and big salary, but it comes at a price. You have to deal with politics, others looking out to take your job, attending events you have no real interest in just to keep in line with the other execs, managing a staff, etc. It ainÆt all easy mode just because youÆre on top. YouÆre never ôoffö the job (thanks blackberry) and have to be able to handle issues whenever they come up; including when youÆre in another country on vacation. It must be nice to have a job where you get to stop thinking about it when you leave work.
Those who can learn to enjoy the simple pleasures in life are truly wealthy, not poor. There is something to be said for someone who can forgo the attraction of wealth in order to have control of their life and live it as they see fit, not in order to maintain their wealth.
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Loki Nahat
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Posted - 2010.03.25 14:50:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Loki Nahat on 25/03/2010 14:50:13
Confirming that I'm loaded in both New Eden and in the Milky Way.
o7
edit: and happy
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Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:00:00 -
[44]
EVE businessmen are wealthy and successful in real-life ergo EVE pirates are all psychopathic murderers?
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Oi U
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
EVE businessmen are wealthy and successful in real-life ergo EVE pirates are all psychopathic murderers?
Confirmed.
Postin
edit: from a oil tanker off the coast of Somalia.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.03.25 15:25:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Iosue
While wealth doesnÆt prevent you from having friends and family, it does impose its own burden on you. This of course assumes you have something to do with your own wealth and that it wasnÆt handed to you in a trust fund and managed for you. Having wealth carries with it responsibility and stress; maintaining that wealth doesnÆt come without its difficulties. If you have more, you have more to lose; you have to be vigilant against those looking to take it from you (RL scammers and the Government) and you most likely have others depending on you (family, staff, beneficiaries, non-profits).
Being a corporate big wig entails a lot of work and stress as well; I know this from experience. You donÆt get to be the boss without sacrificing a lot of your own desires and time. Sure itÆs nice to have a corner office and big salary, but it comes at a price. You have to deal with politics, others looking out to take your job, attending events you have no real interest in just to keep in line with the other execs, managing a staff, etc. It ainÆt all easy mode just because youÆre on top. YouÆre never ôoffö the job (thanks blackberry) and have to be able to handle issues whenever they come up; including when youÆre in another country on vacation. It must be nice to have a job where you get to stop thinking about it when you leave work.
Those who can learn to enjoy the simple pleasures in life are truly wealthy, not poor. There is something to be said for someone who can forgo the attraction of wealth in order to have control of their life and live it as they see fit, not in order to maintain their wealth.
I guess it sucks to be you. 
While I know the burden of management my believe is once you're off you're off, I encourage all my staff the same. If something important shows up they better be able to handle it or they are in the hot seat the second I get back. I also make it a solid point to never bother them while they're on vacation. What you're suggesting is typical American corporate structure.
This is in itself all about management style, if you don't entrust your staff to do things correctly and would rather micromanage your business then I guess you'll be answering emails and taking calls while you're on Los Cabos beach soaking up the sun. If you trust the employees you hired to perform the jobs you hired them for then you wouldn't need to even carry you Blackberry to the movies.
Amarr for Life |
Iosue
Gangrel Mining and Security
High Treason Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 16:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: SencneS
I guess it sucks to be you.
While I know the burden of management my believe is once you're off you're off, I encourage all my staff the same. If something important shows up they better be able to handle it or they are in the hot seat the second I get back. I also make it a solid point to never bother them while they're on vacation. What you're suggesting is typical American corporate structure.
This is in itself all about management style, if you don't entrust your staff to do things correctly and would rather micromanage your business then I guess you'll be answering emails and taking calls while you're on Los Cabos beach soaking up the sun. If you trust the employees you hired to perform the jobs you hired them for then you wouldn't need to even carry you Blackberry to the movies.
I wouldnÆt say it sucks, itÆs just not all roses and fairy tales.
If what I suggest is the typical American corporate structure, then your approach is the exception to the rule; good for you. However, not all businesses lend themselves to that type of approach. Try telling a client with millions of his own net worth tied up in a transaction that youÆre on vacation and canÆt be bothered; in my experience that just doesnÆt fly, even a with capable staff.
If having wealth was that easy, everyone would be rich, and stay rich. ItÆs unfortunate, but the reality is that most people who come into monetary wealth have a hard time keeping it. I think that indicates some level of effort is required to keep what you have.
IÆm not saying having wealth makes you deficient in some way, IÆm just saying it takes effort. Having the money, cars and toys doesnÆt necessarily = win; though IÆm sure it does for some.
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 17:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Iosue
I wouldnÆt say it sucks, itÆs just not all roses and fairy tales.
If what I suggest is the typical American corporate structure, then your approach is the exception to the rule; good for you. However, not all businesses lend themselves to that type of approach. Try telling a client with millions of his own net worth tied up in a transaction that youÆre on vacation and canÆt be bothered; in my experience that just doesnÆt fly, even a with capable staff.
If having wealth was that easy, everyone would be rich, and stay rich. ItÆs unfortunate, but the reality is that most people who come into monetary wealth have a hard time keeping it. I think that indicates some level of effort is required to keep what you have.
IÆm not saying having wealth makes you deficient in some way, IÆm just saying it takes effort. Having the money, cars and toys doesnÆt necessarily = win; though IÆm sure it does for some.
It's clear we're talking about two very different businesses here. While some time sensitive projects ranging in the millions do come alone I always have knowledge of that and plan around those customer ahead of time. There are days where stress is comes into play don't get me wrong but I guess my style is pretty unique.
Amarr for Life |
Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 17:43:00 -
[49]
It's entirely possible to be rich and happy. It's entirely possible to be busy and happy. It's entirely possible to be poor and happy. Happiness is more about outlook and attitude than resources.
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RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 17:55:00 -
[50]
Edited by: RAW23 on 25/03/2010 17:55:10
Originally by: Bad Bobby
It's entirely possible to be rich and happy. It's entirely possible to be busy and happy. It's entirely possible to be poor and happy. Happiness is more about outlook and attitude than resources.
^^This.
One ancient Greek recipe for happiness runs:
Nothing to fear in life,
Nothing to feel in death.
Good things can be achieved,
Bad things can be overcome.
(Philodemus, The Four-fold Remedy or Tetrapharmakos).
Buy into those four things and you'll have a hard time being unhappy. Money is neither here nor there.
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Holdings
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 17:57:00 -
[51]
Edited by: SetrakDark on 25/03/2010 17:56:55
What if you had your face burnt off by acid?
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RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 18:02:00 -
[52]
Originally by: SetrakDark
Edited by: SetrakDark on 25/03/2010 17:56:55
What if you had your face burnt off by acid?
You get over it.
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Bad Bobby
The Dirty Rotten Scoundrels
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 18:11:00 -
[53]
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: SetrakDark
What if you had your face burnt off by acid?
You get over it.
It didn't stop the joker from smiling.
|
Cheeba Don
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 18:34:00 -
[54]
Originally by: SetrakDark
Edited by: SetrakDark on 25/03/2010 17:56:55
What if you had your face burnt off by acid?
Just relax, it'll return to normal when you stop tripping in 6 hours or so.
---------
oOk! |
Flitterby
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 21:18:00 -
[55]
Studies show that neither winning the lottery nor being paralyzed in an accident have significant long-term effects on happiness:
http://education.ucsb.edu/janeconoley/ed197/documents/brickman_lotterywinnersandaccidentvictims.pdf
Happiness probably has more to do with genetics than with circumstances (like most of the human condition). I suspect that the happy people who posted earlier in this thread (rich and poor) would all be happy even if their financial situations were reversed.
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Holdings
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Posted - 2010.03.25 21:29:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Flitterby
Studies show that neither winning the lottery nor being paralyzed in an accident have significant long-term effects on happiness
Intelligence has shown that survey sciences are ****ing garbage.
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nether void
Caldari
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests
R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 23:12:00 -
[57]
I'm fairly successful IRL (Business Intelligence Analyst/Developer). But where this correlation between RL and EVE ends is that there are no truely devistating concequences in EVE if you take the wrong risk. Also, in EVE you can basically go outside every day and pick money off of a tree that regrows it every night (mining) or go get on the freeway and shoot endless amounts of bad guys while the cops wire money directly to your account and at no risk for your life whatsoever (missioning).
While working on my latest IPO brainchild (which the insurance thing is kind of putting on hold now) I've thought...hey why don't I just do this IRL and make real money instead? The problem is EVE has almost perfect information for everything. Most information IRL is at best like a 50% sure thing. IRL risks are higher, and 100x the variables to take into consideration of which you have very, very limited sound information for means probability of financial success is very low.
IRL rich people, while undoutably very smart, are generally big risk takers. Most people are not big risk takers.
Eventually I think I will end up starting my own business. Mainly I just want to see if I can come up with something amazing and then make good money doing it, but also I want to at least have a go at becoming wealthy. It's hard to do that when you spend all your time working for someone else.
Didn't have time to proofread this, so hopefully it made sense. lol
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nether void
Caldari
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests
R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 23:19:00 -
[58]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Iosue
While wealth doesnÆt prevent you from having friends and family, it does impose its own burden on you. This of course assumes you have something to do with your own wealth and that it wasnÆt handed to you in a trust fund and managed for you. Having wealth carries with it responsibility and stress; maintaining that wealth doesnÆt come without its difficulties. If you have more, you have more to lose; you have to be vigilant against those looking to take it from you (RL scammers and the Government) and you most likely have others depending on you (family, staff, beneficiaries, non-profits).
Being a corporate big wig entails a lot of work and stress as well; I know this from experience. You donÆt get to be the boss without sacrificing a lot of your own desires and time. Sure itÆs nice to have a corner office and big salary, but it comes at a price. You have to deal with politics, others looking out to take your job, attending events you have no real interest in just to keep in line with the other execs, managing a staff, etc. It ainÆt all easy mode just because youÆre on top. YouÆre never ôoffö the job (thanks blackberry) and have to be able to handle issues whenever they come up; including when youÆre in another country on vacation. It must be nice to have a job where you get to stop thinking about it when you leave work.
Those who can learn to enjoy the simple pleasures in life are truly wealthy, not poor. There is something to be said for someone who can forgo the attraction of wealth in order to have control of their life and live it as they see fit, not in order to maintain their wealth.
I guess it sucks to be you.
While I know the burden of management my believe is once you're off you're off, I encourage all my staff the same. If something important shows up they better be able to handle it or they are in the hot seat the second I get back. I also make it a solid point to never bother them while they're on vacation. What you're suggesting is typical American corporate structure.
This is in itself all about management style, if you don't entrust your staff to do things correctly and would rather micromanage your business then I guess you'll be answering emails and taking calls while you're on Los Cabos beach soaking up the sun. If you trust the employees you hired to perform the jobs you hired them for then you wouldn't need to even carry you Blackberry to the movies.
Clearly you don't know any senior execs of major corps. Never off the clock. Better have your blackberry by your pillow.
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Veldra Ferden
Curaursi
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 23:43:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
I fail just as badly at real life as I do at eve.
I think this man just spoke some rare words of truth for a big portion of the playerbase.
All lasting business is built on friendship.
Alfred A. Montapert |
Loki Nahat
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 23:50:00 -
[60]
Originally by: SetrakDark
Intelligence has shown that survey sciences are ****ing garbage.
This
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Kalanar
Wrecking Shots
Hostile Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.25 23:54:00 -
[61]
Providing a counterexample: I've never really been successful in trading in EVE (granted, I haven't really tried other than small trade operations, yet I have been extremely successful in real life as far as trading and just general life.
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panda name
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 06:20:00 -
[62]
yeah, i've probably blown up as many people as i have in eve in real life. it's harder in real life though because you actually have to aim and stuff.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 14:31:00 -
[63]
Quote:
If you trust the employees you hired to perform the jobs you hired them for then you wouldn't need to even carry you Blackberry to the movies
If you trust the employess you hired to never be human and therefore to never try to backstab and generally screw your life then you are in for a nasty delusion, sooner or later.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Thrasymachus TheSophist
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 16:55:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If you trust the employess you hired to never be human and therefore to never try to backstab and generally screw your life then you are in for a nasty delusion, sooner or later.
Wow. Remind me never to hire you. Most employees, indeed most humans, do not "try to backstab and generally screw your life".
As for the OP, even if I were to post what I do in RL, nobody would beleive it. =P
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RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 17:21:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If you trust the employess you hired to never be human and therefore to never try to backstab and generally screw your life then you are in for a nasty delusion, sooner or later.
Wow. Remind me never to hire you. Most employees, indeed most humans, do not "try to backstab and generally screw your life".
As for the OP, even if I were to post what I do in RL, nobody would beleive it. =P
Mr President? Don't you have a health care bill to take care of?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.03.26 18:13:00 -
[66]
Quote:
Wow. Remind me never to hire you. Most employees, indeed most humans, do not "try to backstab and generally screw your life".
I bid you your best luck at going ahead like that, you often aren't given a second chance once you find out that it can happen.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
xylopia
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
|
Posted - 2010.03.27 06:04:00 -
[67]
Edited by: xylopia on 27/03/2010 06:11:22
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
As for the OP, even if I were to post what I do in RL, nobody would beleive it. =P
W/e anyone and everyone does is none of my interest, but you seem waiting someone to come out and say, 'what do you do?'
I'd believe w/e you say. So, what are you juggling?
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Cyaxares II
|
Posted - 2010.03.27 07:34:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Wow. Remind me never to hire you. Most employees, indeed most humans, do not "try to backstab and generally screw your life".
I bid you your best luck at going ahead like that, you often aren't given a second chance once you find out that it can happen.
These two statements don't contradict each other - most people are (in my experience) indeed reasonably nice. However, the minority that is not can cause enough damage to make "let's just assume he's nice" an unpractical approach.
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Boogie Bobby
|
Posted - 2010.03.27 22:22:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
As for the OP, even if I were to post what I do in RL, nobody would beleive it. =P
I met a lower end rock star from playing another MMO, and there's a wide variety of celebs etc that admit to playing WOW so really you can claim to be anyone and I wouldn't be terribly surprised.
I think the biggest limit on the talents working both online and real world is time, like someone mentioned earlier. The more successful you are in one medium precludes success in the other. Those of you who've been working on your empire since 2003 might be able to get away with a minimal amount of play but for those of us catching up it can take a bit more.
Also agree that there are so many measures of success, and there's also lots of real life skills that can help you in EVE, not just finance.
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ZiYauRen
Gallente
RedShift Limited
Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 02:53:00 -
[70]
I am one of those old geezers in rl. I say that this discussion can really be guided/defined/concluded with two words.
Balance and Endurance. Abilities or lack of them will only enhance or detract from these two.
Having been and still being 'successful' in rl and able to accomplish what I want to in EVE are both decided by those two factors. I have taught and executed both leadership and management in both rl and EVE to the degree I have 'wanted' to consistantly.
It is tremendously easier in EVE. This is simply because there is a lack of decent ability and anyone can do it in a game if they have the endurance. The world... including games... does not care what you want, feel, think, need, or say. It only reacts positively or negatively to what you do. Just as in rl, if you have the endurance, you can accomplish much in a game if you dedicate yourself to it. In a game, however, it is much more likely to fail just as spectacularly as it began.
The reason is balance. Someone with the capacity to navigate the harsh realities of rl will never choose the game over rl. Those who dedicate themselves to the game simply don't have the balance/priorities to succeed tremendously in rl. There are things you must do for success. Doing things takes time. Those who can't see the paradoxes and contradictions here don't have an opinion worth hearing.
The game is fun. Unless you show a way to profit greatly from it that can make you rl dollars, w/out owning the company that runs it, there is no reason to consider it in any way related to rl success. Exactly the opposite.
Rl success is about priorities and doing. Game success is about the lack of both. Its a break... thats all. It indicates no more about 'successful' people than liking bbq or going to a movie does.
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Mia Lang
Caldari
KARZEC INDUSTRIES INC
Venture Alliance
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 11:41:00 -
[71]
Originally by: ZiYauRen
I am one of those old geezers in rl. I say that this discussion can really be guided/defined/concluded with two words.
Balance and Endurance. Abilities or lack of them will only enhance or detract from these two.
Having been and still being 'successful' in rl and able to accomplish what I want to in EVE are both decided by those two factors. I have taught and executed both leadership and management in both rl and EVE to the degree I have 'wanted' to consistantly.
It is tremendously easier in EVE. This is simply because there is a lack of decent ability and anyone can do it in a game if they have the endurance. The world... including games... does not care what you want, feel, think, need, or say. It only reacts positively or negatively to what you do. Just as in rl, if you have the endurance, you can accomplish much in a game if you dedicate yourself to it. In a game, however, it is much more likely to fail just as spectacularly as it began.
The reason is balance. Someone with the capacity to navigate the harsh realities of rl will never choose the game over rl. Those who dedicate themselves to the game simply don't have the balance/priorities to succeed tremendously in rl. There are things you must do for success. Doing things takes time. Those who can't see the paradoxes and contradictions here don't have an opinion worth hearing.
The game is fun. Unless you show a way to profit greatly from it that can make you rl dollars, w/out owning the company that runs it, there is no reason to consider it in any way related to rl success. Exactly the opposite.
Rl success is about priorities and doing. Game success is about the lack of both. Its a break... thats all. It indicates no more about 'successful' people than liking bbq or going to a movie does.
/agreed
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RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 12:13:00 -
[72]
Originally by: ZiYauRen
The game is fun. Unless you show a way to profit greatly from it that can make you rl dollars, w/out owning the company that runs it, there is no reason to consider it in any way related to rl success. Exactly the opposite.
You equate real life success purely with financial gain. You speak of balance but this shows an unfortunate lack of perspective. On this criterion, most of the great minds whose thought our current civilisation is based were less "successful" than moderately wealthy shop keepers or farmers. Philosophers such as Socrates and Diogenes the Cynic, who completely eschewed financial gain, must be counted as complete failures it seems.
Or ... just possibly ... there are things other than wealth that are valuable. Perhaps even, and speak this softly, more valuable than hard cash . If so, then there are other criteria by which to judge success, criteria that make something of a mockery of this kind of materialistic world-view.
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Tehg Rhind
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 17:09:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Tehg Rhind on 28/03/2010 17:15:35
The skills I have developed building market tools for eve have been directly beneficial to stuff I do at work. I built an Access database to manage my trading. At the same time I was designing a LIMs system (scientific database) at work.
For my current trade system I am about to start using some engineering economics techniques like time-value of money as applied to series. If I was completely masochistic I could apply linear programming to investments. These skills translate directly to real world, and can make you a LOT of money if you know how to do them.
Same thing with managing transportation logistics. My system involves doing blends between regionwide and localized buy orders based on volume/time. Knowing exactly when the value in a system justifies a courier contract, and exactly how much I should pay and collateral for that courier contract is integral to my system. This kind of stuff translates to a lot of real businesses, but on a much less complicated scale.
I guess the main thing is that certain career paths in EvE can start getting really complicated (vertically integrated trade and production system), and require a good ability to manage a lot of data efficiently. And however you do that, that's valuable in the real world.
Edit: Should note that I do very low-risk very high volume, non speculative trading. Highly speculative trading doesn't necessarily need these things, and probably wouldn't profit from them
. The only way to be competitive in that is through heavy amounts of data analysis.
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Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 17:22:00 -
[74]
Originally by: ZiYauRen
The game is fun. {...} Rl success is about priorities and doing. Game success is about the lack of both. Its a break... thats all. It indicates no more about 'successful' people than liking bbq or going to a movie does.
Totally agreed. Originally by: RAW23
Philosophers such as Socrates and Diogenes the Cynic, who completely eschewed financial gain, must be counted as complete failures it seems.
Straw man argument. ZiYauRen did not equate real life success via some financial zero sum model. He simply said that "game success" has little to do with rl success. As to the rest of your response: Agreed. Originally by: Tehg Rhind
a good ability to manage a lot of data efficiently. And however you do that, that's valuable in the real world.
This.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Cipher Jones
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 19:56:00 -
[75]
I used to think success had something to do with financial status until I had a family of my own and discovered true success.
If you can balance eve+family you are very successful IMHO.
This is clearly a signature. |
Riethe
|
Posted - 2010.03.28 20:58:00 -
[76]
Originally by: RAW23
You equate real life success purely with financial gain.
And so does the rest of the thread. What's your point?
This guy's post is the only one actually worth reading and isn't a load of crap.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.03.29 09:34:00 -
[77]
Edited by: RAW23 on 29/03/2010 09:37:01
Edited by: RAW23 on 29/03/2010 09:35:24
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: RAW23
Philosophers such as Socrates and Diogenes the Cynic, who completely eschewed financial gain, must be counted as complete failures it seems.
Straw man argument. ZiYauRen did not equate real life success via some financial zero sum model. He simply said that "game success" has little to do with rl success.
I don't think this is a straw man. I may have misinterpreted this statement, though:
Originally by: ZiYauRen
The game is fun. Unless you show a way to profit greatly from it that can make you rl dollars, w/out owning the company that runs it, there is no reason to consider it in any way related to rl success. Exactly the opposite.
My understanding of this is that he is saying:
"There is no reason to consider the game as related to rl success unless money can be made from it in real life."
I thus assumed an implicit premise that only those things, in general, that can make you real money can be related to rl success. Those that do not are related to "exactly the opposite" (not entirely clear what is meant here but it seems to suggest rl failure). Alternatively, his implicit premise might be that games are special cases and that only in these special cases does success need to be connected to financial gain. However, there is nothing to suggest this interpretation, so I thought the general interpetation to be the simplest and, thus, most likely.
Originally by: Riethe
Originally by: RAW23
You equate real life success purely with financial gain.
And so does the rest of the thread. What's your point?
This guy's post is the only one actually worth reading and isn't a load of crap.
My point is that this is a very narrow view of success and not one that would be recognised by anyone with a vocation other than making money.
For instance, the analytical skills needed for business success in EVE can have a range of non-financially directed applications in real life. The ability to analyse is, for example, fundamental to my profession as a philosopher and would remain fundamental even if philosophy moved back out of the modern academy and ceased to be a paid job (we can only hope!). This is not, however, to say that you need analytical skills at a particularly high level to succeed in EVE. But if your skills are insufficient to cope with the complexity of EVE they are certainly going to be insufficient to cope with more detailed and problematic systems of thought. So the ability (not necessarily the interest or desire) to succeed in analysing structures and markets in EVE is a necessary but not sufficient condition for success in high-level analysis outside the game. This is all quite independent of financial success.
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Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2010.03.29 10:35:00 -
[78]
In this case, it is simply a discussion about personal philosophies. There is no wrong, there is no right. And most importantly, there is no spoon.
Spoon!
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes
Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves;
Aptitude and intellect are needless here;
'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.03.29 15:27:00 -
[79]
Unfortunately living in your parents basement while being unemplyed playing 20 hours a day or working at dominos pizza happens in mmo's. better yet playing 20 hours a day while on summer vacation from junior high happens as well. Regardless of your situation, there is nothing really wrong with it. The idea is people can devote lots of time and energy into a game where the possibilities are easier than in real life. The ones that are unemployed living in their parents basements with market bots while semi online with 2+ accounts murdering the markets for isk are the ones you need to worry about. |
Ashira Twilight
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 00:18:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Bad Bobby
I fail just as badly at real life as I do at eve.
This.
Want to start a club? Failure Inc?
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ZiYauRen
Gallente
RedShift Limited
Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 05:17:00 -
[81]
The truth of the matter is that I wasn't referring to 'purely financial gain' if you read closely. You could also read 'profit' in there just as easily. The fact of the matter is that the universe couldn't care less about what you think, feel, believe, want, or need. It only reacts... positively or negatively... to what you do. The point stands simply because an inability to profit from what you do in one venue in another venue is the point. That you don't get it proves the point actually.
BTW... thanks for making my point as well.
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Riethe
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 08:35:00 -
[82]
Originally by: ZiYauRen
The fact of the matter is that the universe couldn't care less about what you think, feel, believe, want, or need. It only reacts... positively or negatively... to what you do.
What you do is the direct result of what you think, feel, believe, want, or need.
Therefore the universe must care about these things, as they are the source of your decisions.
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Nyveg
Hyperborea Re
|
Posted - 2010.03.30 10:47:00 -
[83]
Originally by: RAW23
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If you trust the employess you hired to never be human and therefore to never try to backstab and generally screw your life then you are in for a nasty delusion, sooner or later.
Wow. Remind me never to hire you. Most employees, indeed most humans, do not "try to backstab and generally screw your life".
As for the OP, even if I were to post what I do in RL, nobody would beleive it. =P
Mr President? Don't you have a health care bill to take care of?
If someone takes care of the prompter first.
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