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Kaylee Orchidia
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.03.27 11:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kaylee Orchidia on 27/03/2010 11:14:04 Discuss, Sure they supported CVA but does this mean they also supported slavery? Turning a blind eye and supporting are two different things. Or are they?.
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Conlin
Gallente Mad Bombers
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Posted - 2010.03.27 12:33:00 -
[2]
Well seeing as l fought them long enough , enough to see them openly support slavery , and traded in slavery . The answer is an easy one . Yes !!.
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Charney deGeoff
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.27 12:44:00 -
[3]
The fact that they allowed expansion of Amarr Empire to Providence (CVA being the executors of that expansion) makes them "supporters of slavery" - blind eyes or not. Same goes for everyone else who let this expansion start and exist unchallenged.
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Major Templar
Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.27 14:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kaylee Orchidia Edited by: Kaylee Orchidia on 27/03/2010 11:14:04 Discuss, Sure they supported CVA but does this mean they also supported slavery? Turning a blind eye and supporting are two different things. Or are they?.
I speak for myself but no, I don't support slavery and never will. I however will be friendly to my allies but I won't tell a man what he can and can't do, just don't expect me to go along with him. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Major Templar Head of Armed Forces Kings Of Eden Sev3rance[/center] |
Iva Posavec
Posavec Innovations Takhar Matari
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Posted - 2010.03.27 19:05:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Major Templar
I speak for myself but no, I don't support slavery and never will. I however will be friendly to my allies but I won't tell a man what he can and can't do, just don't expect me to go along with him.
You are in Sev3rance, which has been a major ally of CVA and you have supported them to a great extent. In short Sev3rance have supported slavery be it directly or indirectly. . Alliance Creation Service |
Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.27 19:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Major Templar
I speak for myself but no, I don't support slavery and never will.
So why then have you been actively fighting to protect an empire built on the backs of slaves? Looks quite a lot like support from where I'm standing. |
Nauticaa
Gallente Trust Doesn't Rust Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.27 19:22:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Nauticaa on 27/03/2010 19:23:05 *Sienna sighs and shakes her head*
Bloody kids. You have my Apologies for my sisters behaviour, however if you want to answer her question feel free.
Sienna "Nauticaa" Orchidia
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Major Templar
Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.27 20:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Xennith
Originally by: Major Templar
I speak for myself but no, I don't support slavery and never will.
So why then have you been actively fighting to protect an empire built on the backs of slaves? Looks quite a lot like support from where I'm standing.
Well, you are mistaken. I don't fight to protect an empire at all. I actually fought to defend my space and my right to freely pass through the space. If I were to allow that 30 man red gang to sit uncontested in the space next door then my chances of being killed are high. But again, I do not own nor have I ever owned a slave and my love for the Empire is little. But I will still fly and assist those who fight to keep space free of those who would kill someone for no reason.
This is of course my views. May be different for others. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Major Templar Head of Armed Forces Kings Of Eden Sev3rance[/center] |
Kazzzi
Amarr Iniquitous Technologies Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.03.27 20:04:00 -
[9]
Supporting CVA, a slaver regime, is supporting slavery. I doubt even CVA would deny this. I'm not sure why anyone would bother denying it.
Many of us have plenty of logs of Severance members openly stating over local comms of their involvement in the slave trade and activities against slaves that are illegal under Imperial law.
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Charney deGeoff
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.27 20:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Major Templar Well, you are mistaken. I don't fight to protect an empire at all. I actually fought to defend my space and my right to freely pass through the space. If I were to allow that 30 man red gang to sit uncontested in the space next door then my chances of being killed are high. But again, I do not own nor have I ever owned a slave and my love for the Empire is little. But I will still fly and assist those who fight to keep space free of those who would kill someone for no reason.
So you're saying that -7- and CVA didn't have same standings list? That *you* were actually setting *your own* standings in *your* free space all this time? That you, as a holder, didn't have to follow certain rules set by the Providence rulers (CVA and therefore by extension the Amarr Empire)?
That we could have actually been friends with you while fighting the CVA slavers without you being told to set us red?
Well fancy that.
In reality I do think you fought to defend the Empire, maybe you just wasn't aware of it or maybe you wanted to believe you were free to do your own thing? It doesn't really matter - you were following the rules and agenda set by CVA and part of their mission was "extending the Empire into Providence" therefore you were very much in the same boat with slavery and the rest of it.
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Icarus3
Gallente DAEDALUS X The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.03.27 22:06:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kaylee Orchidia Edited by: Kaylee Orchidia on 27/03/2010 11:14:04 Discuss, Sure they supported CVA but does this mean they also supported slavery? Turning a blind eye and supporting are two different things. Or are they?.
To support the CVA in anyway shape or form is supporting slavery. Allowing slave transports to travel through their space is also supporting the slave trade.
Any alliance or corporation who is allied/defends CVA are slavers themselves wether they admit to it or not. Enabling the slave trade... disgusting!
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Xina Tutor
Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.27 22:57:00 -
[12]
The slaves are a lie. Or at least, if you like, they have become a excuse and the real mission has been long abandonned.
CVA claim to support slavery, tho I still have seen none at all. Certainly slavery was a non-event in -7- space.
-7- members certainly dont care either way about slaves. That goes for most of the cluster. Slaves, well any non-capsuler, are really outside our sphere of interest and influence.
We seek free space for capsulers, the people who matter. Indeed UK dont really care about slaves either. It is just an excuse for then to justify their acts of piracy of late. They ally now will alliances who care nothing about slaves at all. Their interest is in claiming systems and capitalist greed.
The only time slaves are mentioned by -7- members is when we choose to agravate UK members. It is sometimes effective, but most times not. This is because in reality, they dont really care about slaves either. Some were once -7- members. I bet they care as much about slaves now as they ever did... which is not at all.
We supported CVA because they also wanted free space for capsulers. Their internal dealings with the lower non-capsuler beings is their own business and of no real importance to us. Even if they have slaves i fail to see a great deal of difference between that and other poorly paid working class non-capsulers who are trapped in various factories and stations throughout the cluster. Indeed there are reports that many slaves fare far better than they do.
In the end, we were not pets as UK seem to have become, so we did whatever we wanted to internally. I could say we were anti-slavery, but it's more than that...
Simply, like the majority of the cluster, slaves do not matter at all for us. They are the interest of only a dying breed of capsuler who has less and less influence in the cluster at large. Whether that is a good or bad thing is for others to decide.
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Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.27 23:07:00 -
[13]
So essentially, UK dont care about slaves really unless they are being taunted by -7- pilots who use the thing that UK pilots dont care about to annoy them, but its ok because UK are officially declining in influence with every one of your systems that we capture.
Right? |
Major Templar
Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.27 23:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Charney deGeoff So you're saying that -7- and CVA didn't have same standings list? That *you* were actually setting *your own* standings in *your* free space all this time?
We followed a common sense KOS list and had alliances set blue that were in fact red to CVA. Now, this being said we did also use the CVA KOS list because while not all on their list was hostile the majority were in fact red for attacking people and it's just common sense that they should be the same with us.
Quote: That you, as a holder, didn't have to follow certain rules set by the Providence rulers (CVA and therefore by extension the Amarr Empire)?
We did follow a certain set of rules. Anti-Pirate/NRDS which if anyone knows us should know that -7- has in fact followed these rules since it's birth. Anti-Pirate/NRDS is a choice that we chose, not something forced on us.
Quote: That we could have actually been friends with you while fighting the CVA slavers without you being told to set us red?
Well we could have, in fact I had a few friends of the red sort but to be honest, if you are a a**hat then I don't like you. I don't know you personally but I do know plenty of people that way and I don't like them at all.
Quote: In reality I do think you fought to defend the Empire, maybe you just wasn't aware of it or maybe you wanted to believe you were free to do your own thing? It doesn't really matter - you were following the rules and agenda set by CVA and part of their mission was "extending the Empire into Providence" therefore you were very much in the same boat with slavery and the rest of it.
Again, I did not fight for the Empire, just for myself and friends. And like I already stated, we did not follow CVA rules but we followed the rules we set forth for ourselves in Sev3rance's conception. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Major Templar Head of Armed Forces Kings Of Eden Sev3rance[/center] |
Xina Tutor
Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.27 23:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Xennith So essentially, UK dont care about slaves really unless they are being taunted by -7- pilots who use the thing that UK pilots dont care about to annoy them, but its ok because UK are officially declining in influence with every one of your systems that we capture.
Right?
That's pretty much it, yep. The taunting is largely ineffectual as I have said. Nobody really cares about slaves on a day to day basis. Some of us, like myself, have the courage to admit it. Others continue to live the lie.
UK has been completely marginalized by the fact that they are just a small part of a very large red blob. UK did not take space, it was given to them by others. Oh sure... they were there. But seriously... This is ironically the same claim they made about -7-.
And to top it off. That red blob cares nothing about slaves. Not one bit. Do you serious think Manfred or Bobby care at all? Even a little? Nobody of any influence cares about slaves. All that are left are UK, CVA, and perhaps SF. UK are marginalized, CVA are apparently being destroyed, and SF never really mattered very much in the great scheme of things. And apparently there are some millitia out there somewhere...
The great story of the slaves is drawing to an end it seems.
BTW, the captured systems are being given to the fleas of the pets... which is even more humorous.
Watch out... those fleas can bite! You might get an itch you can't scratch!
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Charney deGeoff
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.28 06:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Xina Tutor
We supported CVA because they also wanted free space for capsulers. Their internal dealings with the lower non-capsuler beings is their own business and of no real importance to us. Even if they have slaves i fail to see a great deal of difference between that and other poorly paid working class non-capsulers who are trapped in various factories and stations throughout the cluster. Indeed there are reports that many slaves fare far better than they do.
I don't debate here often as I rather let my actions speak for me, however it's not often I see posts packed with so much hate and bitterness. I chose to quote that part as rest of your scribblings makes even less sense. You seem very consumed trying to steer the topic into what we and our allies think and what our relations are.
But to this topic of "slaves don't exist"
Let me quote from the Galnet database:
Quote: "The nations they conquered were enslaved, a practice justified by their religion. Ever since, the Amarrians have enslaved every nation and race they have encountered, and today slavery is an essential part of Amarr society."
A huge generalization, I'm sure and I'm also sure those words were not written by Amarrians (as they lack the justifying religious zealotry). I fly with many Amarrians who have turned against such traditions, many of them are my friends, but officially those are still the ways of the Empire and their practice is commonplace and undenyable. And officially CVA's mission has been to extend the Empire to Providence. This doesn't just mean territory, as you seem to think, it means the society with all its traditions as well.
By supporting CVA in this expansion you have tied and sworn yourself into supporting the the ways and traditions of the Amarr society. You can't pick and choose when it comes to societies, you get the whole package.
The only thing you can do is close your eyes and refuse to see it, which is what you're doing. And you're doing it very well. But it doesn't change what you are, slaver. |
Charney deGeoff
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.28 06:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Major Templar
Quote: In reality I do think you fought to defend the Empire, maybe you just wasn't aware of it or maybe you wanted to believe you were free to do your own thing? It doesn't really matter - you were following the rules and agenda set by CVA and part of their mission was "extending the Empire into Providence" therefore you were very much in the same boat with slavery and the rest of it.
Again, I did not fight for the Empire, just for myself and friends. And like I already stated, we did not follow CVA rules but we followed the rules we set forth for ourselves in Sev3rance's conception.
Interesting - so essentially what you're saying is that you were just innocent by-standers, caught in between two sides, you didn't care much for official agendas, you just picked the side with people you knew and shot the other people you didn't like much? And in fact the only thing you care about is your individuality. You.
It's sort of like swearing yourself free from everything. Fantastic, I have to try that one day.
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Xina Tutor
Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.28 07:52:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Charney deGeoff
I don't debate here often as I rather let my actions speak for me, however it's not often I see posts packed with so much hate and bitterness.
heh... well I get the bitterness thrown at me a lot. I guess it is to try to cause some sort of emotional reponce. Of course my loyalty is as always to my corporation, and we have fared well through recent events. We continue to fly togehter and do much the same things as we have ever done. If anything, the recent events have been liberating to say the least.
So what you call bitterness I call reality. It is a very dynamic universe we live within and change is rarely a bad thing. Indeed we should embrace it and use it to our best advantage. Indeed we should enjoy it.
Originally by: Charney deGeoff
But to this topic of "slaves don't exist"
I speak not of historical references. I speak of the reality of capsulers today. For the majority, slaves are a non-event. They matter not at all. I am a realist. Unlike many I am also atheist, so I am not the ordinary even within my race. The actual existance of the slaves does not matter. They are outside the interest of the majority. Indeed we know that in the new UK that many of their own pilots do not care.
I live in the here and now, and in that reality few capsulers care about slaves. This is a fact, whether you like it or not. Indeed perhaps I will post sometime about the exact definitions of slavery, as there is something of a fine line in such things. Some have rewritten the dictionary on this, but such is another tale.
Originally by: Charney deGeoff
Ps. Oh and your "only capsuleers are worth my attention" drivel - very Amarrian indeed ;-)
At least I have the conviction to admit this. Many do not. The reality remains that the vast majority do not care.
As for the support of CVA, this was a convenient relationship regardless of their internal policies. Their greater mission was not unlike our own, and that remains. Likewise UK cares not about the internal policies of their new masters. These masters care nothing of any plight of the slaves, and yet UK are happy to allow them to deliver providence for them.
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zoolkhan
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.28 11:29:00 -
[19]
Edited by: zoolkhan on 28/03/2010 11:29:30
Originally by: Kaylee Orchidia Edited by: Kaylee Orchidia on 27/03/2010 11:14:04 Discuss, Sure they supported CVA but does this mean they also supported slavery? Turning a blind eye and supporting are two different things. Or are they?.
indirect slavers.
if you give military and logistic aid to a sworn slaver faction - then you are what you fight alongside with.
CVA calls us terrorists and pirates, because three years ago we had unexpected aid also from piratisch cooperations. our disruption of their pocketfilling is labelled piracy / terrorism. (they still cannot aggree internally on a term)
I think we are on morally solid ground, if we call everybody a slaver -whom helps fuelling CVAs warchest and assisting them in direct operations serving "operation deliverance" and similar projects.
this has been chewed through again and again. and people like you,green behind the ears and still with the academy are usually just muppets of someone without guts and honor in the background.
no respect.
recruiting -forum
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Nauticaa
Gallente Trust Doesn't Rust Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.28 16:19:00 -
[20]
Quote: and people like you,green behind the ears and still with the academy are usually just muppets of someone without guts and honor in the background.
As I have said she is my little sister, a little misguided maybe but is noones muppet. If you wish to hold a more well known capsuleer accountable for what she says, well i'm right here.
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Roboplegic
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.03.28 16:29:00 -
[21]
Slavery doesnt f'ing exist!
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Charney deGeoff
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.03.28 16:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Roboplegic Slavery doesnt f'ing exist!
I think you're confused. Maybe you picked wrong GalNet channel.. or maybe you ate something bad last night?
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Snakester
Caldari IronPig Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.28 17:57:00 -
[23]
THERE IS NO SLAVES LEFT IN EX -7- SPACE
I KILLED THEM ALL. Sig removed, inappropriate link. ~Saint |
Major Templar
Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.28 21:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Snakester THERE IS NO SLAVES LEFT IN EX -7- SPACE
I KILLED THEM ALL.
Good in soup with bread?
But seriously, slavery is bad but as long as I don't see it, it doesn't matter to me. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Major Templar Head of Armed Forces Kings Of Eden Sev3rance[/center] |
Mitchello
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.03.28 21:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kaylee Orchidia Edited by: Kaylee Orchidia on 27/03/2010 11:14:04 Discuss, Sure they supported CVA but does this mean they also supported slavery? Turning a blind eye and supporting are two different things. Or are they?.
This comes down to the question whether the reply of "we were only following orders" is a valid excuse. For the record, throughout the history of mankind it has not been anything close to an excuse, neither in this New Eden, or in the previous Eden.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Iniquitous Technologies Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.03.28 22:02:00 -
[26]
Severance personnel were told many many times over the years that all they had to do was renounce CVA and slavery. Now it's too late. |
Major Templar
Caldari KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.28 22:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kazzzi Severance personnel were told many many times over the years that all they had to do was renounce CVA and slavery. Now it's too late.
That is where you are wrong. Because we were told that we would have to renounce it and then stop being friends to those who do it. This being said, it went a little like this. "Renounce slavery and betray your friends or else." While most are willing to betray and let their friends burn in this day, we have honor and don't stab our friends in the back. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Adida
Major Templar Head of Armed Forces Kings Of Eden Sev3rance[/center] |
Xina Tutor
Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.28 22:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kazzzi Severance personnel were told many many times over the years that all they had to do was renounce CVA and slavery. Now it's too late.
This only matters to UK, and UK are currently a very very small part of a very large coalition. Those who actually took the systems, those with the numbers and the capital vessels, do not care about slavery at all.
Now perhaps this could have been stopped by becoming an -A- and Atlas pet as UK have become, but that was never an option. Manfred knew this when he made his false offer of peace that he knew could not be accepted.
So again the reality. If we had made a deal with -A- then it would not have mattered at all if there were slaves or not. We might have said, "yes we are slavers, but we will conceed to the demands of non-agression to sovreignty," and that would have been it.
As we all know, the majority of the cluster, and especially the most powerful of alliances, care nothing about slaves. Not a bit.
Ask Manfred. Do you think he cares about slaves? This is about isk and space and security. Nothing else.
Everyone knows that, so spin away.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Iniquitous Technologies Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.03.28 22:46:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kazzzi on 28/03/2010 22:49:44
Originally by: Major Templar While most are willing to betray and let their friends burn in this day, we have honor and don't stab our friends in the back.
I'm not wrong, I said you would have had to renounce your friends CVA. You chose a side, and you remained loyal to your allies. This is commendable, but unfortunately for you, you're alliance dug it's own grave by choosing the side it did. Now Severance must deal with the consequences.
Some of your members may deal with it by b****ing about the situation here on IGS, we all understand this is simply a coping mechanism. They are well past denial, currently in rage, soon they will advance to the acceptance stage and the IGS will be better for it. |
Xina Tutor
Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.03.28 23:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kazzzi Edited by: Kazzzi on 28/03/2010 22:49:44
Originally by: Major Templar While most are willing to betray and let their friends burn in this day, we have honor and don't stab our friends in the back.
I'm not wrong, I said you would have had to renounce your friends CVA. You chose a side, and you remained loyal to your allies. This is commendable, but unfortunately for you, you're alliance dug it's own grave by choosing the side it did. Now Severance must deal with the consequences.
Some of your members may deal with it by b****ing about the situation here on IGS, we all understand this is simply a coping mechanism. They are well past denial, currently in rage, soon they will advance to the acceptance stage and the IGS will be better for it.
But you continue to miss the point. This current attack against providence has nothing to do with slavery at all.
This is all about what Manfred wanted my poor puppet.
Mandred doesn't care about slaves.
In this case slavery does not matter. Indeed UK does not matter. The big boys are playing now, UK just jumped on the back of the wagon for the ride.
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