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Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
1
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Posted - 2012.07.05 13:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't mind that the Taxes at NPC run Customs is 10%. It's the cost of doing business in high sec. And it needs to be there. What drives me nuts is the price they base the tax on. It's nowhere near the Regional average. It's not even any where near what you can sell it for.
Is CCP going to update the regional on a more regular basis. I was reading last night that it's based on pricing back in NOV. How much cpu are we talking here to re calc them once a day or even every few days.
Again, don't mind paying the tax but it really isn't 10% of market value it's more like 30 to 40 % depending on what you are exporting.
For the record i was moving Oxygen.
Thanks
JT
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
The Protato
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
22
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Posted - 2012.07.05 13:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Posting in a stealth V3 whine thread |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
1
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Posted - 2012.07.05 13:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
The Protato wrote:Posting in a stealth V3 whine thread
What?
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
Jamagh
Grand Violations
6
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Posted - 2012.07.05 13:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am going to agree with the OP. I had not done PI in... oh... about a year. Was surprised when I saw the tax. Thought it was a little excessive. Then just shrugged my shoulders... and went about my day. Ran a few L4s and got the money back. Not that hard to get more ISK. And for what I need... I do not need a lot of it. "Please stop reopening silly rumor threads."-á CCP Navigator. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
134
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Posted - 2012.07.05 13:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Deal with it. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
247
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Posted - 2012.07.05 13:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Manipulate the market to pay lower taxes, goon style. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Kyle Ward
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
160
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Palovana wrote:Manipulate the market to pay lower taxes, goon style.
But that's exploiting??!!! The Sandbox, you're playing it wrong! |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
2
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Palovana wrote:Manipulate the market to pay lower taxes, goon style.
If you had read the post you would know that doesn't help. The price is a fixed number that has nothing to do with the current market.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
2
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mortimer Civeri wrote:Deal with it.
Wow. Insightful and helpful.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
flummox
Militaris Industries Cascade Imminent
16
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
don't like the taxes? move to space that isn't controlled by NPC corps... did this even need to be said?
i think it should be higher. 10% of your free money is too little.
take off the fur and do something with your game. |
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Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
153
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Seek ways to control what tax you pay. PI market prices are low right now because people are able to access low/no-tax POCOs. Combined with the fact that there is limited demand for PI goods, especially the P4 high ends right now, and you've got sunk prices.
If you are sticking to 10% CONCORD planets, your profit margin will diminish while the market remains low. Either abandon doing PI, or find somewhere where you can do PI for less than 10%.
While it would be nice if PI prices recovered, this is the EVE market and it is working as intended.
In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
5
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Let me be clear. IF the Customs tax was listed at 33% i wouldn't be bringing this up. But it's not. It's shown as 10% of market price.
Basically you can't make a good choice about investing in PI if the numbers arn't correct. That's all.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
5
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
flummox wrote:don't like the taxes? move to space that isn't controlled by NPC corps... did this even need to be said?
i think it should be higher. 10% of your free money is too little.
take off the fur and do something with your game.
you spelled "time" wrong. and/or your name sucks.
Lack of reading comprehension here. Not complaining about the tax. Pretty sure i didn't use big words or anything that might be a problem for you.
Oh and name calling. Wow you have it all today.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
5
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pinstar Colton wrote:Seek ways to control what tax you pay. PI market prices are low right now because people are able to access low/no-tax POCOs. Combined with the fact that there is limited demand for PI goods, especially the P4 high ends right now, and you've got sunk prices.
If you are sticking to 10% CONCORD planets, your profit margin will diminish while the market remains low. Either abandon doing PI, or find somewhere where you can do PI for less than 10%.
While it would be nice if PI prices recovered, this is the EVE market and it is working as intended.
And if it recovered then the price point that is taxed should go up. And pay accordingly. But right now it's not 10%. It's closer to 33%.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
SegaPhoenix
The Peace Keepers Guardian Knights Citizens
8
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Justin Thyme wrote:I don't mind that the Taxes at NPC run Customs is 10%. It's the cost of doing business in high sec. And it needs to be there. What drives me nuts is the price they base the tax on. It's nowhere near the Regional average. It's not even any where near what you can sell it for.
Is CCP going to update the regional on a more regular basis. I was reading last night that it's based on pricing back in NOV. How much cpu are we talking here to re calc them once a day or even every few days.
Again, don't mind paying the tax but it really isn't 10% of market value it's more like 30 to 40 % depending on what you are exporting.
For the record i was moving Oxygen.
Thanks
JT
It appears nobody is actually reading your post =( but if what you say is true just add the tax to your sell price don't take the hit yourself. If the tax price is out of date for you then it should be out of date for lots of people. Try selling outside of a local trade hub and be patient =) |
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
153
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Posted - 2012.07.05 14:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Justin Thyme wrote:Let me be clear. IF the Customs tax was listed at 33% i wouldn't be bringing this up. But it's not. It's shown as 10% of market price.
Basically you can't make a good choice about investing in PI if the numbers arn't correct. That's all.
I agree with your claim that the cost of the goods used to calculate taxes is not an accurate reflection on the actual market value, I disagree that it makes PI investment decisions difficult.
Because the taxes are based on a static value, you will always know how much PI tax you will pay to import/export X units of goods based on the listed tax rate of the planet. You can then compare your tax expenses against the market value of the goods to find out if extracting/manufacturing a particular good will be profitable.
If the base values were tied to market values, it would quickly bottom out the PI markets as the high-sec systems would quickly become much more profitable to use and anyone could do it in relative safety. It would be like the whole vendor-seeded shuttle ceiling on trit prices thing all over again, and that would be bad for ALL producers of PI goods. In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
5
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Posted - 2012.07.05 15:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pinstar Colton wrote:Justin Thyme wrote:Let me be clear. IF the Customs tax was listed at 33% i wouldn't be bringing this up. But it's not. It's shown as 10% of market price.
Basically you can't make a good choice about investing in PI if the numbers aren't correct. That's all.
I agree with your claim that the cost of the goods used to calculate taxes is not an accurate reflection on the actual market value, I disagree that it makes PI investment decisions difficult. Because the taxes are based on a static value, you will always know how much PI tax you will pay to import/export X units of goods based on the listed tax rate of the planet. You can then compare your tax expenses against the market value of the goods to find out if extracting/manufacturing a particular good will be profitable. If the base values were tied to market values, it would quickly bottom out the PI markets as the high-sec systems would quickly become much more profitable to use and anyone could do it in relative safety. It would be like the whole vendor-seeded shuttle ceiling on trit prices thing all over again, and that would be bad for ALL producers of PI goods.
The only thing i would add then is that those static numbers need to be more readly available. Even in say the info of the customs house. Not just 10% of market value. Would be nice to be able to work this out with out having to delve into forums. Heck i may have missed it but the tutorial said nothing about it.
Because now there is a major dissonance between what you can look up as the Market average for all of EVE. At last check 141 for oxygen, and the price that you have to go digging for of 500 per unit of x.
And for those that say you should have to pay more for living in High sec. I agree. Just let me know what it is ahead of time so that my brain that is good at math doesn't start twitching when i'm told that 10% of 600k is 148k. Just saying.
Make the math work and I'm all good with it.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
SegaPhoenix
The Peace Keepers Guardian Knights Citizens
8
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Posted - 2012.07.05 16:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
I will try to look into this when I get home but in the mean time just make sure you understand how the taxes are applied. It might not be as simple and straight forward as it appears to be. |
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
155
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Posted - 2012.07.05 16:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
The math isn't too hard. Just calculate it for 1 unit of your final product. Here is the base values that I use. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or these are outdated.
P0 = 5 isk base cost P1 = 500 isk base cost P2 = 9,000 isk base cost P3 = 70,000 isk base cost P4 = 1,350,000 isk base cost
These are the base values for exporting. So a 10% tax when exporting 1 unit of a P1 will be 50isk. Importing taxes are always half of the export. So importing 1 unit of a P1 will cost you 25isk
Example:
You want to see if making the P2 product "Livestock" is profitable.
Let us assume you are using a factory planet in a high-sec system.
5 units of livestock requires 40 units of Proteins and 40 units of biofuels. Dividing out that means 1 unit of livestock needs 8 units of proteins and 8 units of biofuels.
Since the taxes don't care about the market values, we need to import 16 total units of P1s.
16 X 500 base price = 8000 isk base price 10% tax rate X 8000 base divided by 2 (because you are importing)= 400 isk import taxes.
Now, you've run those through your factories and are ready to export your P2 good.
1 unit of P2= 9000 isk base price 10% tax X 9000 base price=900 isk in taxes.
Import cost (400) + export cost (900)= 1300 isk in taxes per unit of livestock.
Now, compare that to the selling price of livestock and see if livestock production on a factory planet is a good choice. Don't forget to factor in the opportunity cost of the raw materials and your tax/broker fees too, if you want to be super-accurate about it.
Does one HAVE to go into this level of math to do PI? No, but those willing to put in some extra number crunching can reap more rewards out of their colonies.
In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
169
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Posted - 2012.07.05 16:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
flummox wrote:don't like the taxes? move to space that isn't controlled by NPC corps... did this even need to be said?
i think it should be higher. 10% of your free money is too little.
take off the fur and do something with your game.
you spelled "time" wrong. and/or your name sucks.
You of course know that this problem exists in all the security regions.
The more pixel macho they become, the dumber they become. I'm an American, English is my second language... |
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Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
128
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Posted - 2012.07.05 16:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kyle Ward wrote:Palovana wrote:Manipulate the market to pay lower taxes, goon style. But that's exploiting??!!!
Only if you exploit a bug. Manuplating the market is allowable and not an exploit. Blowing up your own ships to farm LP from undestroyed cargo (which was a unintentional bug) is an exploit.
On topic, yes OP the taxes are way too high. They need to adjust with the market value of the items, instead of just being a static value depending on the level of PI good. Paying upwards of 50% tax on a planet with 10% tax rate is a bit silly. Paying the same amount of taxes for an item that is 20k isk p/u and an item that is 40k isk p/u is also silly. |
Katja Faith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
174
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Posted - 2012.07.05 16:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Costs have been applied in-game per design. On average, PI now has a 30% tax structure in high sec: imports and exports. Spreadsheet (I love using that word as a verb) your operations (for example, I used five planets total for Robotics production) and my overall costs (taxes) came to 32% and some change in high sec. Plenty of other costs (taxes) exist now that weren't there before the latest expansion, and CCP is using the application of those costs (taxes) to their benefit. |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
7
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Posted - 2012.07.05 17:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pinstar Colton wrote:The math isn't too hard. Just calculate it for 1 unit of your final product. Here is the base values that I use. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or these are outdated.
P0 = 5 isk base cost P1 = 500 isk base cost P2 = 9,000 isk base cost P3 = 70,000 isk base cost P4 = 1,350,000 isk base cost
These are the base values for exporting. So a 10% tax when exporting 1 unit of a P1 will be 50isk. Importing taxes are always half of the export. So importing 1 unit of a P1 will cost you 25isk
Example:
You want to see if making the P2 product "Livestock" is profitable.
Let us assume you are using a factory planet in a high-sec system.
5 units of livestock requires 40 units of Proteins and 40 units of biofuels. Dividing out that means 1 unit of livestock needs 8 units of proteins and 8 units of biofuels.
Since the taxes don't care about the market values, we need to import 16 total units of P1s.
16 X 500 base price = 8000 isk base price 10% tax rate X 8000 base divided by 2 (because you are importing)= 400 isk import taxes.
Now, you've run those through your factories and are ready to export your P2 good.
1 unit of P2= 9000 isk base price 10% tax X 9000 base price=900 isk in taxes.
Import cost (400) + export cost (900)= 1300 isk in taxes per unit of livestock.
Now, compare that to the selling price of livestock and see if livestock production on a factory planet is a good choice. Don't forget to factor in the opportunity cost of the raw materials and your tax/broker fees too, if you want to be super-accurate about it.
Does one HAVE to go into this level of math to do PI? No, but those willing to put in some extra number crunching can reap more rewards out of their colonies.
Ah but that's not in game. What i was saying on the last part was that that info should be in game in some way. It's not about the math being hard it's about the info not being in the game where you can see it. Makes doing the calculation a breeze but if you don't have the info before you start you are in for a big surprise.
And that is the index that someone pointed me to last night offline. Thanks for posting it here as well. Maybe someone who hasn't seen it will be able to benefit from it.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
269
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Posted - 2012.07.05 17:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Some good feedback / advice in here.
@ the OP, I was pinging the relevant DevBlog thread once a month this past winter / spring, requesting a response from CCP regarding their rapidly outdated fixed value basis taxation scheme of PI good import / export activity. Not a single reply, not even a courtesy response.
CCP is purposefully not communicating with its customers or they simply DGAF at this point.
IMHO, CCP is probably just fine with the current rate of taxation on PI exports as they have been very clear that nerfing individual space pilots' income levels is a priority this year. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Justin Thyme
Militek Industries Exotic Matter Coalition
7
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Posted - 2012.07.05 17:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thanks again Pinstar Colton, That's a great index.
Where would we put that in the game to let folks see it before choosing to do PI. Because as i stated if you don't have those numbers you can't make an informed choice or calculate anything until after you get the "bigger than expected" tax number back. It's not about hard math. As Pinstar pointed out the math isn't hard. The problem is that the numbers are not available without meta-gaming. Until of course after you try to export your first bunch of product from a planet and get back a number that totally does not Jive with what you were able to research on the markets before starting.
"Hunting rats is like mining for scrap metal... and occasionally striking gold"-á I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thiev...-- Justin Thyme |
flummox
Militaris Industries Cascade Imminent
17
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Posted - 2012.07.09 01:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Justin Thyme wrote:flummox wrote:don't like the taxes? move to space that isn't controlled by NPC corps... did this even need to be said?
i think it should be higher. 10% of your free money is too little.
take off the fur and do something with your game.
you spelled "time" wrong. and/or your name sucks. Lack of reading comprehension here. Not complaining about the tax. Pretty sure i didn't use big words or anything that might be a problem for you. Oh and name calling. Wow you have it all today.
no lack. yes, complaining. what's "big words", precious?
name calling? where? your name sucks. that's not "calling". idiot. <--that's name calling.
it's like talking to a 4 year old (<--more name calling.)
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Cyprus Black
Segmentum Solar Intrepid Crossing
252
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Posted - 2012.07.09 01:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
I find it a bit ironic that the highsec Custom Office taxes are lower than lowsec.
Highsec = 11% Lowsec = 17% (usually at 25% if owned by a corp)
It would make far more sense to have that switched so that highsec tax rate is the 17% and lowsec is the 11%. Otherwise there's little incentive to do your PI in lowsec at all if it just costs more in the long run. Seems like CCP is providing more incentive to stay in highsec instead of venturing out and taking risks for greater profits.
Just my two cents. You wouldn't complain about needles when you get a tattoo. So why would you complain about PvP when you play EVE? |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions Solid Foundation
174
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 01:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Go to lowsec, shoot up the PI offices there, put up your own, do PI in your own offices.
There are two reasons why the PI taxes should be high
1. it balances risk vs reward to make PI worth doing in lowsec. If taxes were so low that nobody noticed them then all that Player Owned Customs Offices stuff CCP did would be for nothing as people would just ignore it. I'd also argue that PI is a little under used in lowsec and just ignored in null, if anything the taxes should be higher.
2. The market would crash. Let's say you were exporting oxygen (going for about 200 in jia). Right now it's charging you 50 isk to export it because back in November oxygen was going for 500. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_interaction#Taxes
So if the tax gets updated you'd pay 20 isk instead of 50 for oxygen. But everyone else is also paying fewer taxes, so the market price will drop because everyone is penny gaming each other until they feel comfortable with their profit margin. So let's say you wanted to keep your old profit margin on oxygen and you were paying fewer taxes. So everyone penny games each other until the price drops by 30isk (the difference between the old tax and the new one)
Now the game realizes that oxygen went from 200 isk to 170 isk a unit and drops it's tax to 17 isk. Now people penny game each other a bit more and the price drops by another 13isk.
Maybe oxygen is a bad example but think of something that needs a factory planet to produce (importing and exporting fees). Imagine if everyone paid lower and lower taxes. They'd keep penny gaming one another until the taxes dropped to almost 0 and the cost of any finished product equaled the sum cost of all the base ingredients. There'd be no real profit in doing PI, the market would crash. I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544 |
Ron Maudieu
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.07.09 02:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
flummox wrote:don't like the taxes? move to space that isn't controlled by NPC corps... did this even need to be said?
i think it should be higher. 10% of your free money is too little.
take off the fur and do something with your game.
you spelled "time" wrong. and/or your name sucks.
I am guessing you do not do PI at all, you would understand that it is not "free money". If it costs you 0.8 isk for every 1 isk that you make, that is hardly free when you're dealing with a measly 3 million isk a day (especially when considering the time it takes to transport goods).
P.S. For those that are not too bright, it was just an example. |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub Like I Give A F--K
1431
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 02:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
flummox wrote:Justin Thyme wrote:flummox wrote:don't like the taxes? move to space that isn't controlled by NPC corps... did this even need to be said?
i think it should be higher. 10% of your free money is too little.
take off the fur and do something with your game.
you spelled "time" wrong. and/or your name sucks. Lack of reading comprehension here. Not complaining about the tax. Pretty sure i didn't use big words or anything that might be a problem for you. Oh and name calling. Wow you have it all today. no lack. yes, complaining. what's "big words", precious? name calling? where? your name sucks. that's not "calling". idiot. <--that's name calling. it's like talking to a 4 year old (<--more name calling.) Ahh, cascade imminent. Almost as bad at trolling as you are at internet space ships.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"-á-á-MXZF |
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