Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
viewtifuljoe
Doom Sellers Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 19:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
The ability for neutrals to remote repair war targets in high sec is undoubtedly a game mechanic that is constantly exploited by greifer corps allowing them to utilize neutral alts, or allies to repair them when engaged in combat and gain a very VERY unfair advantage.
It seems to me, and I know many people who agree, that the use of this is a game exploit that is parallel to cheating, and makes no sense when seriously thought about.
When in war, Concord allows enemies to fight eachother, but does not have any mechanic that eliminates neutrals from aiding these enemies. When by effect the war dec system and the isk involved in declaring war allows combat to occur.
The Concord Assembly has plenty of conventions that stipulate the various terms of engagement and yet does not have no balancing factor pertaining to neutral reps.
For instance a neutral can repair a war target and then when targeted just dock , because they do not get aggression, this allows then to work completely unassailable and causes pilots to lose more ships than is necessary. This is completely unfair.
Concord, being as they are the police, would not allow neutrals to fight without being paid to allow so, as is done using the war declaration system, the use of neutrals makes combatants aiding war targets avoid such isk penalties or the prolonged exposure to kill rights. In doing so this allows them to work alongside griefers, many being alts of the greifers themselves, and ruins the consistency of the war dec, and concord system, while making the griefing corps able to rack up kills without much chance of losing.
My opinion is that the neutrals should become unable to dock, as the war targets are once they use their reps, and that they should be concorded or forced to declare war immediately themselves as a result of the first action of repairing. This would both eliminate the neutral reps capability of being unassailable, and would also provide concord with the isk from these neutrals by forcing them to wardec, or die to concord. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
955
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 20:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Just bring alpha to kill the logi's. Failing that, have a MWD Mach or Cynabal bump them really far away.
There are tactics available to you. Use them. |
viewtifuljoe
Doom Sellers Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.05 20:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
With all due respect,
Please read this post.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=57644#post57644
Also, bumping them is not the best way since there range for rep is still pretty big.
-Viewtiful Joe |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
790
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 06:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Huh... it's been awhile since this complaint came up. It's actually quite refreshing.
To counter an enemy logi (even a neutral one) you can:
- blob it with ECM drones - have everyone in gang have at least one medium/heavy neutralizer fitted and use it on the logi while focusing DPS on the target (I highly recommend this) - alpha it with Munnins/Tornados/Maelstroms - bring more DPS - stop playing station games Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
406
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 15:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's not an exploit.... and while it may feel unfair, you can do it too.... so it is fair....
I will concede its moderately unsportsmanlike...
Also, are you aware they are changing crimewatch??????
This is the system that handles all the flags on who you can and can't shoot in highsec... There are SEVERAL changes coming with the new crimewatch system that remove most of the problems associated with Neutral RR.
1.) RR'ing an aggressed player will give you an aggression timer equal to their current timer... so, you won't have neutral RR gate/station hugging, as if they RR your target, you can shoot them down before they can redock (assuming you have the firepower to do so).
2.) They might give neutrals assisting in a war a suspect flag... this would allow everyone to shoot them...
CCP is well aware of the Nuetral RR issues, and they are making steps to balance them... |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
962
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 16:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bumping them is so that you can attack them and kill them without them being able to dock.
You have solutions, use them. Otherwise its your own fault.
Though... I do think them not getting a docking timer of 1 minutes is a little... annoying. |
viewtifuljoe
Doom Sellers Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 18:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: It's not an exploit.... and while it may feel unfair, you can do it too.... so it is fair....
I will concede its moderately unsportsmanlike...
Also, are you aware they are changing crimewatch??????
This is the system that handles all the flags on who you can and can't shoot in highsec... There are SEVERAL changes coming with the new crimewatch system that remove most of the problems associated with Neutral RR.
1.) RR'ing an aggressed player will give you an aggression timer equal to their current timer... so, you won't have neutral RR gate/station hugging, as if they RR your target, you can shoot them down before they can redock (assuming you have the firepower to do so).
2.) They might give neutrals assisting in a war a suspect flag... this would allow everyone to shoot them...
CCP is well aware of the Nuetral RR issues, and they are making steps to balance them...
Thank you very much, I was not aware of the changes comming. Thought, If I ECM them or blow them, They can still dock up and switch ship. There is no way for me to solo kill a war target that is alone.
Quote: Bumping them is so that you can attack them and kill them without them being able to dock.
You have solutions, use them. Otherwise its your own fault.
Though... I do think them not getting a docking timer of 1 minutes is a little... annoying.
With all due respect,
If i bump them away , and blow them, they can still come back with in a minute switch for pvp ship and come blow me,. I will no longer be facing 1 person but actually 2 and usually that is not something that you can survive.
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
449
|
Posted - 2012.07.06 21:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
The best way to get rid of neutral rep alts is to move away from high sec.
High sec is the worst place to be if you don't want meta game encouraged and reinforced mechanics from CCP.
Seems quite logical to everyone Neutrals should simply get Konkorden (if NPC alts) or get aggression timers (+automatic Concord fees for getting involved in the war leading to characters negawallet if mechanic abused to get free wars), for the war time duration once involved, but no actually it's just considered as valid mechanic and elite pvp
Just move away from that trash that is high sec pvp or stay in NPC corp. Move to low sec/null sec. Over there it's simple like clear water: you want some you get some, there's no place for pawns brb |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
970
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 01:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
viewtifuljoe wrote:Quote: Bumping them is so that you can attack them and kill them without them being able to dock.
You have solutions, use them. Otherwise its your own fault.
Though... I do think them not getting a docking timer of 1 minutes is a little... annoying.
With all due respect, If i bump them away , and blow them, they can still come back with in a minute switch for pvp ship and come blow me,. I will no longer be facing 1 person but actually 2 and usually that is not something that you can survive. Thats fair.
However not all logis are ready made combat pilots.
Also, if you pop em far enough off station they have to warp away (or slow boat it lol) and to a station that has a useful combat ship just to be able to join the battle.
And, you were facing two anyway with the repper (just one wasn't shooting) so its at least the same odds of winning.
There are ways to deal with neutral reps.
Now, as a vulture I would love logis to get docking timers. Then they woudl die and I would get more loot (though since CCP let war deck evasion slide, pew pew has been dropping, and the new mechanics haven't helped much). But this isn't about what I would like, rather about what is needed. And as it stands, there are ways to deal with logis that doesn't require any dev time.
Edit: noticed another poster mentioned the possible crimewatch changes... if CCP wants to change this, I wouldn't argue at all. Their choice, and means more loot . |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
170
|
Posted - 2012.07.07 07:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
I thought they fixed this. If someone reps anyone in combat or flagged for combat in any way, the repper is supposed to get aggression along with the usual docking and gate jump denial. If this is not happening, submit a bug report. I haven't noticed it to be functioning incorrectly. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |
|
Jaydn Remko
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 12:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Makes sense to me - anyone aiding in a war that does not concern them (from a Concord perspective) should either aggress, or be nailed by Concord.
If these reps want to participate without consequence, they should be forced to pay for a war along with everyone else. High-sec warfare would actually be entertaining if there werenGÇÖt so many alt cowards hanging off stations spamming dock buttons.
Null-sec for the win! |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
462
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 13:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jaydn Remko wrote:Makes sense to me - anyone aiding in a war that does not concern them (from a Concord perspective) should either aggress, or be nailed by Concord.
If these reps want to participate without consequence, they should be forced to pay for a war along with everyone else. High-sec warfare would actually be entertaining if there werenGÇÖt so many alt cowards hanging off stations spamming dock buttons.
Null-sec for the win!
Specially because this "neutral" exploit attitude doesn't lead to more ship kills but makes less people willing to undock for fights because they are sure 90% if not 100% time this will happen, witch leads smaller corps to avoid fights as much as possible, thus less pvp.
Neutral reps should just trigger 1 of my proposals:
-Concord response: global aggression timer for 15min and ship destroyed
Or
-Concord automatic assignment: the current neutral "actor" is immediately transferred by Concord to the corporation he chose to help. Has consequence of he's choice he's immediately charged for 25M isk and insurance contract revoked -wallet charged no matter if positive or negative- and stuck in said corporation as long as said corporation has wars are in the run with no possibility to get kicked or leave said corporation until corporation is free of all wars. -stop the account or transfer the character from one account to another maintains the character in current war until it's end.
I think this would be fair enough right? brb |
Komodo Askold
Legion of Darkwind Order of the Void
30
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 15:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
I haven't encountered this yet, but as told in other posts, seems like there are some valid tactics to counter that.
However, it's true that sometimes people with alts... make me unhappy. Sometimes seems like the best way to play EVE is to pay for 2 or more accounts in order to have an advantage over those who can/want pay only a single account, like me. |
Jaydn Remko
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 16:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
While there tactics to counter this issue as you rightly point out, the issue is (in my mind anyway) It allows people to gain access to a FREE warGǪ It is also very frustrating if you donGÇÖt have the blobs, but even if you do, because the reps donGÇÖt aggress, they can simply dock and be out of danger. You are participating in a war that you yourself are not part of.
I have no issues with logi in high-sec, but they must be forced to grow balls and partake in the dec itself. High-sec war as it stands is simply frustrating and not worth the effort. I think making minor changes to neutral intervention would greatly increase the fun-factor of warfare in empire regions. Of course, the only people who are going to have any complaints about this are those who utilize the rep and doc tactics. |
Cyprus Black
Segmentum Solar Intrepid Crossing
252
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 16:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Wasn't the Wardec revamp supposed to fix this? You wouldn't complain about needles when you get a tattoo. So why would you complain about PvP when you play EVE? |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
467
|
Posted - 2012.07.08 21:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cyprus Black wrote:Wasn't the Wardec revamp supposed to fix this?
Well we were supposed to have an inventory functioning properly and without lag too, you wee what I did here brb |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1879
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 14:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
If they use neutral logi, bring a falcon fitted to jam them. One falcon can easily shut down two logis. If they give up their tank for ECCM, a pair of tornadoes will demolish them nicely. The best part is, falcons and sniper tornadoes will continue to be useful even after the logi have docked up or been destroyed.
CCP need to fix logi agression transfer. That would solve this problem entirely. But they've wrapped that into CrimeWatch, which appears to now be scheduled for Soon (tm), so you'd best learn how to deal with it. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
471
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 15:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:If they use neutral logi, bring a falcon fitted to jam them. One falcon can easily shut down two logis. If they give up their tank for ECCM, a pair of tornadoes will demolish them nicely. The best part is, falcons and sniper tornadoes will continue to be useful even after the logi have docked up or been destroyed.
CCP need to fix logi agression transfer. That would solve this problem entirely. But they've wrapped that into CrimeWatch, which appears to now be scheduled for Soon (tm), so you'd best learn how to deal with it.
Again the problem you're failing to understand is that not all small corporations have logistics/ECM pilots available and the fact you can use neutral reps/ECM/boosts just remove a lot of small scale high sec pvp because people will not even bother to undock, just set a long que skill and play something more amusing, witch is not really difficult to find in these circumstances. brb |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
406
|
Posted - 2012.07.09 16:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
viewtifuljoe wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: It's not an exploit.... and while it may feel unfair, you can do it too.... so it is fair....
I will concede its moderately unsportsmanlike...
Also, are you aware they are changing crimewatch??????
This is the system that handles all the flags on who you can and can't shoot in highsec... There are SEVERAL changes coming with the new crimewatch system that remove most of the problems associated with Neutral RR.
1.) RR'ing an aggressed player will give you an aggression timer equal to their current timer... so, you won't have neutral RR gate/station hugging, as if they RR your target, you can shoot them down before they can redock (assuming you have the firepower to do so).
2.) They might give neutrals assisting in a war a suspect flag... this would allow everyone to shoot them...
CCP is well aware of the Nuetral RR issues, and they are making steps to balance them...
Thank you very much, I was not aware of the changes comming. Thought, If I ECM them or blow them, They can still dock up and switch ship. There is no way for me to solo kill a war target that is alone.
If they have nuetral RR, they are NOT alone.... so the real issue is not Neutral RR, (especially when crimewatch is fixed and they gain aggression timers). The real issue is that it's very hard to identify battle-changing Not-Really-Nuetral RR'ers from the harmless neutrals in a system....
What you need, is a method to identify them... I imagine this would take a few components:
Something like battle reports that list the logistics pilots involved, so your intel gatherers can create a list of associates... (check) and A better contact system, that allows you to associate rogue OOC pilots with a corp/alliance... Create a new icon that makes identifying these pilts as easy as looking for a skull on the intel window... and A longer-term consequence associated with nuetral RR.... Like if you give assistance to a war target, you become a war target for a week or two.
|
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1896
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 15:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: the real issue is not Neutral RR, (especially when crimewatch is fixed and they gain aggression timers). The real issue is that it's very hard to identify battle-changing Not-Really-Nuetral RR'ers from the harmless neutrals in a system....
1) They're in a logi, generally either sitting somewhere away from the undock or at a nearby safespot. They'll almost certainly appear on dscan.
2) Once they're used once, they're instantly burned. Good logi take months to train, so its not like they have disposable logi alts. That trick will only work once, and then you know who they are.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Something like battle reports that list the logistics pilots involved, so your intel gatherers can create a list of associates... (check) Real logi pilots have been begging for this. Mind you if this happens there will be MORE logis out there, repping their way into fights to get onto killmails. After all, they could even rep both sides.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:A better contact system, that allows you to associate rogue OOC pilots with a corp/alliance... Create a new icon that makes identifying these pilts as easy as looking for a skull on the intel window...
More granularity in contact standings and the ability to assign associations in contacts *would* be nice.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:A longer-term consequence associated with nuetral RR.... Like if you give assistance to a war target, you become a war target for a week or two.
People keep suggesting this, and I keep wondering why no one thinks it through. If I rep your war target and become a war target for a week, then it works one of two ways:
1) You're extending the current aggression mechanic to a full week, giving you shooting rights on me without me being able to preemptively engage you. All because I repped a friend in an incursion while he was at war with you. That is a phenomenally bad plan as it would make it impossible for me to know who is a danger to me in a given system.
2) We would become mutual war targets for the duration of that week, in which case I could rep your enemy and then engage you. Imagine the chaos of THAT mess, where corp membership doesn't matter and I can simply rep my way into whatever war I choose. I could just live in an NPC corp and join into whatever war I pleased. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
|
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
408
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 23:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Something like battle reports that list the logistics pilots involved, so your intel gatherers can create a list of associates... (check) Real logi pilots have been begging for this. Mind you if this happens there will be MORE logis out there, repping their way into fights to get onto killmails. After all, they could even rep both sides.
The "(check)" comment was to point out CCP's already adding logistics to the kill reports... Also, the unsaid point of the comment: getting intel on your opponents should include getting info on who their OOC alts are, and how they are used (eyes, boosting, RR, etc). Finally, assuming CCP fixes crimewatch to give RR agression timers, creating more logi pilots is not a bad thing.
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:A longer-term consequence associated with nuetral RR.... Like if you give assistance to a war target, you become a war target for a week or two. People keep suggesting this, and I keep wondering why no one thinks it through. If I rep your war target and become a war target for a week, then it works one of two ways: 1) You're extending the current aggression mechanic to a full week, giving you shooting rights on me without me being able to preemptively engage you. All because I repped a friend in an incursion while he was at war with you. That is a phenomenally bad plan as it would make it impossible for me to know who is a danger to me in a given system. 2) We would become mutual war targets for the duration of that week, in which case I could rep your enemy and then engage you. Imagine the chaos of THAT mess, where corp membership doesn't matter and I can simply rep my way into whatever war I choose. I could just live in an NPC corp and join into whatever war I pleased.
2.) Addressing number two first: a.) It CAN NOT be mutual... If it is mutual, you're essentially giving a loophole to create unlimited numbers of free allies, as you pointed out. b.) It SHOULD NOT be mutual... The Nuetral RR'er are bypassing the concord fees and essentially joining in the war in a clandestine manner.... Those pilots typically know the players within the war they are joining, and they know who the "enemies" are.... I would highly suggesting an interface improvement that helps players identify threats (i.e. on your character sheet, a page that says: -- you are a legitmate target to Player A until date XX/YY for suicide ganking their hulk (killrights), -- you are a legitimate target to Corp/Alliance B due to a concord-sanctioned war, -- you are a legit target for Corp C until date XX/YY for aiding their enemies of war in battle, etc) People already set players and corps Red, and watch local to identify threats.... This is not something new or u
1.) Your incursion counter-example is completely unfounded. Serious Incursion runners already ban people in wars from joining their incursion fleets. And when a war-decced pilot does sneak into an incursion fleet, most smart logi pilots already withhold reps on that fleet member and let them DIE rather than put their logi ship at risk. In general, this would have no effect on incursion fleets.... I will admit that there are some atypical cases where people do risk repping a war target, and this will give them second thought. However, in general this will not effect many beyond the neutral RR in high-sec wardec scenarios.
-- Final thought... this could be used as a way to get "free" wardecs on new and/or oblivious EvE players... but they'll adapt or die... This will have much less harm to them than can flipping/baiting, so I hardly see an issue...
Please point out any loopholes or problems I'm missing... The only "problem" I see with this, is it effectively nerfs using nuetral alts in wars. While you could still use them for the initial punch effect, these non-trivially skilled alts then lose most their utility... they can no longer freely travel under concord protection when between battles!! And even worse, they can't even shoot first thereafter, when they effectively become a party in the war. With such a diminished utility, their usage becomes almost not worth it! |
Davon Mandra'thin
Solar Horizon Directive Blue Nation
101
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 16:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
During last fanfest they mentioned a complete rework of how Crimewatch works.
This should fix this in its entirety. |
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
73
|
Posted - 2012.07.14 21:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Davon Mandra'thin wrote:During last fanfest they mentioned a complete rework of how Crimewatch works.
This should fix this in its entirety. Also, gate/station games aren't a "neutral RR" problem, they're an "RR has no aggression timers" problem. The Crimewatch rework should fix this as they are planning to add support for inherited aggression timers, which stops the station games while allowing logistics-based gangs to deaggress the same way a locally tanked gang would. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |