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Zarch AlDain
GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.03 10:44:00 -
[1]
Recently I read that the CSM and CCP had been discussing a proposal to prevent people from docking if they were warp scrambled.
While I can see the reasoning behind the idea and agree that some nerf is needed for docking games I think that that particular proposal is overpowered for three reasons:
One: With the change to MWDs warp scramblers are already a powerful and popular module. They do not need further buffs.
Two: Station games can (in some cases) be fun and while it needs adjusting is one of the few ways that smaller gangs can engage larger ones.
Three: Being camped into a station is already boring. Being able to undock and at least try and escape is an important option to keep.
A complete block on docking based on being warp scrambled seems far too harsh to me. However I also agree that at the moment it can be too easy to dock, a compromise solution somewhere between the current options is needed.
What I propose instead is that docking at a station be changed to take a certain amount of time.
Without any negative effects that time would be nothing, or perhaps one second.
Certain effects would hinder the docking process. For example each point of warp jamming, each stasis webifier, potentially each target painter too.
Aggression timers would work in the same way they currently do. Once the aggression timer is cleared the new system would kick in.
Naturally all numbers are examples only and are subject to playtesting/tweaking/etc.
Possibility one:
Each of these would add 5 seconds to the docking time.
So for example if you undocked and were warp scrambled and webbed by one ship then when you hit "dock" was up it would say "docking request accepted, attempting to get docking beam lock"
Possibility two (anti-blob):
The first negative effect would delay docking by 30 seconds. Each negative effect after that would delay by 50% less (i.e. 15 seconds, 7.5 seconds, etc - so maximum docking delay is about a minute)
An entirely different option would be to not use docking timers at all. (keep aggression timers of course). This proposal involves more fundamental changes in the way people dock and warp to stations though so could well be more work to implement.
In this proposal 6 points on each station would be defined as docking points, with each docking point being a 5km radius sphere.
When you warp to the station you would automatically warp to the docking point facing you.
When undocking the undock point would be a docking sphere but you would by flying out of it as currently happens on stations.
By massively shrinking the available docking/undocking area you open out much more possibilities for flying and bumping to come into things - people have to actually be in the right (and fairly small) area of space in order to dock which makes it much harder both for a big blog to hug the undock and for people to bail in a fight without being bumped/etc.
I much prefer this option to the timer one as it comes back down to pilot skill - however I can see the timer being much easier to implement and think either of these solutions is much better than either the current situation or just having a blanket block on docking when scrambled.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.03 11:38:00 -
[2]
I'm not really sure about your implementation(s), but it's definitely better then the suggested scrambler/disruptor fully preventing you from docking (which makes undocking a complete and utter gamble unless you have a instaundock for every station or local is clear).
Docking games are hardly a issue unless we talk about capitals or maybe RRBS gangs, and both problems are much easier to solve.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.03 11:45:00 -
[3]
I had thought of this, and come up with this solution:
As it stands now, there is a 1 minute timer whenever you aggress before you can dock/jump gates. CCP have said things like "this is cause scotty doesn't like it when you come in with guns hot". Alright, that's fair.
Make warp scramblers prevent guns from cooling off: Basically, if you aggress outside a station, you better expect to finish the fight. If you just undock, you can redock. If you warp to a station (as long as you aren't under the one minute aggression timer), you can dock without being scrambled.
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adriaans
Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Cpt Branko I'm not really sure about your implementation(s), but it's definitely better then the suggested scrambler/disruptor fully preventing you from docking (which makes undocking a complete and utter gamble unless you have a instaundock for every station or local is clear).
Docking games are hardly a issue unless we talk about capitals or maybe RRBS gangs, and both problems are much easier to solve.
agreed.
supporting this because csm's suggestion is utterly ridiculous and stupid, and i don't even ever play undock games... --signature-- Support the Field Command ship boost: Here |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.04.03 14:41:00 -
[5]
Whats to stop me from rotating various negative effect modules to keep stacking more time?
Your idea is Swiss cheesed a few areas. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.04.04 22:30:00 -
[6]
your forgeting with the scramber doing this comes with the overview being available while docked...
that said. i wont support i personally want more than 1 exit pr station... but that's just me. and will prolly never happen
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.05 01:11:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/04/2010 01:12:56
Originally by: Taxesarebad your forgeting with the scramber doing this comes with the overview being available while docked...
Aha, which massively helps vs cloaked ships, and so on and on.
Besides, it really means undocking is a complete gamble as soon as there is someone else docked in station with you. Yay! You can now station camp from within if you want.
What fun gameplay.
Plus with the awesome part how stations don't really decide to dock you right away all the time, but sometimes decide to randomly wait for a few seconds, really awesome.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
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Posted - 2010.04.05 06:11:00 -
[8]
Anyone know why scramblers were picked? I think it makes more sense to make you unable to dock with a web. To simulate your ship unable to get the the hanger.
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Snabbik Shigen
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Posted - 2010.04.07 15:35:00 -
[9]
I'd rather see stations that kick you out to a random distance of 10-50km when you undock. Or multiple ingress/egress ports depending on the station type. And/or stations that require you to navigate around to within 5km of a docking beacon before you dock.
Different stations could have different layouts, with inbound ports being in different locations then outbound ports.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.04.07 17:28:00 -
[10]
There is no real problem with the current setup. If you don't like docking games don't camp stations. It takes two parties to play docking games.
From my perspective it would be nice if CCP would spend time making sure that your ship actually docks when you click dock. Or that your ship warps when you click warp etc.
At least for me, I do amarr fw. We are about 3/4 the size of our opposing milita, the Minmatar. So if this gets changed it will mean I will never log off in a station. If I do the next time I log in I may find I am camped and be unlikely to get enough people in a reasonable amount of time to help bail me out. Which just means no eve for me that day.
So Ok I have to log off in space all the time. I usually don't do this now. I'm not sure of the log-offski mechanics, like how long after I log off can someone who may have probed my ship come and kill me? But I suppose that will become required reading.
That said there may be some pluses to this. It may lead to good fights on stations and add to the strategy of eve by giving strategic benefits to holding npc stations. Station fights will definitely become a much larger part of eve pvp if this change is made.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.07 21:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cearain
So Ok I have to log off in space all the time. I usually don't do this now. I'm not sure of the log-offski mechanics, like how long after I log off can someone who may have probed my ship come and kill me? But I suppose that will become required reading.
Your ship dissapears in 1 minute if you have no aggro prior to logging off, or 15 minutes if you do, so logging off without aggro in something with a reasonable amount of EHP is generally OK (you're unlikely to get probed and jumped that fast after all) and safe if you're more or less alone in system or doing it in a deep safe.
Logging off with aggro, of course, is a huge gamble.
I am not sure if shooting something which belongs to you (a can) still gives you aggro however.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.04.07 22:08:00 -
[12]
we used to have an interesting alternative solution to docking games: nano ship bumping
Before the Great Nano Nerf, a 7km/s Mach could eject aggro'ed ships out of dock range even on fairly large stations. It was pretty tricky and the defender could avoid direct hit with various maneuvers. Sometimes, even carriers could be inched a few km from dock range.
But now all that is pretty much gone and we are stuck with more limited boring game. Why not bring it back?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.07 22:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ephemeron we used to have an interesting alternative solution to docking games: nano ship bumping
Before the Great Nano Nerf, a 7km/s Mach could eject aggro'ed ships out of dock range even on fairly large stations. It was pretty tricky and the defender could avoid direct hit with various maneuvers. Sometimes, even carriers could be inched a few km from dock range.
But now all that is pretty much gone and we are stuck with more limited boring game. Why not bring it back?
machariels are still nice for bumping stuff out of docking range. also cyclones/fleet stabber with 100mn mwds ;)
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Zarch AlDain
GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.11 10:38:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Drake Draconis Whats to stop me from rotating various negative effect modules to keep stacking more time?
Your idea is Swiss cheesed a few areas.
Because when you turn off the negative effect module then it would lose that penalty. i.e. each 5 seconds the docking system would check how long you've been trying to dock, count the number of hostile effects at that time, then either dock or not dock.
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Ephemeron we used to have an interesting alternative solution to docking games: nano ship bumping
Before the Great Nano Nerf, a 7km/s Mach could eject aggro'ed ships out of dock range even on fairly large stations. It was pretty tricky and the defender could avoid direct hit with various maneuvers. Sometimes, even carriers could be inched a few km from dock range.
But now all that is pretty much gone and we are stuck with more limited boring game. Why not bring it back?
machariels are still nice for bumping stuff out of docking range. also cyclones/fleet stabber with 100mn mwds ;)
Yep, we bump stuff off stations all the time. It's ok on most stations but some (particularly some of the caldari and one of the gallente ones) have rediculous undocks. I was looking at one the other day where you could be 20km from the undock point and still in docking range.
Personally I'm ok with the current situation although I do think it could be improved. What I am not ok with though is the proposed change to have scrams block docking - which I think is an incredibly bad idea.
That's why I've made some proposals for much more balanced responses.
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Zikka
GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.11 11:01:00 -
[15]
Anything is better than scram blocking docking!
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.04.11 13:42:00 -
[16]
Supported fully.
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Khah Nij
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Posted - 2010.04.12 19:12:00 -
[17]
Support is good :)
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.04.12 22:36:00 -
[18]
Quote: Yep, we bump stuff off stations all the time. It's ok on most stations but some (particularly some of the caldari and one of the gallente ones) have rediculous undocks. I was looking at one the other day where you could be 20km from the undock point and still in docking range.
I remember one time I was roaming Venal (Caldari stations) and there was a Raven at the undock point. I was in my 7km/s Mach, he started to aggro me, so I MWD'ed out 30km from him and then MWD'ed toward him, bumped him square in the face - and then had 2nd bump in the direction. By then he was 20km out and had me dual webbed (90% webs) but we were both rolling on inertia and stopped 40km out of station. And as all that was going on, he had a friend in Moros undock right after I bumped into the Raven. If it wasn't for the successful bump, they would have killed me easy with the Moros drones and blasters (dual web). But at 40km the Moros drones needed time to fly to me and blasters barely did any damage. I killed the Raven and escaped.
Now that was excitement - all gone. Impossible now after the nerfs
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.13 05:31:00 -
[19]
OP brings up very good points. Yikes...
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
md5oogle
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.13 21:05:00 -
[20]
Only support scrams preventing docking if the pilot has aggressed. Should last for duration of last aggression (15m) or until the scram has been lost.
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Archtype
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:35:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Archtype on 15/04/2010 14:35:18 Supporting :)
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debbie harrio
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Posted - 2010.04.16 16:25:00 -
[22]
At last a decent idea for station games, the warp scram stopping you from docking was ridiculous and to think the CSM suggested it.
+1 from me
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.16 17:00:00 -
[23]
Put windows on the station so people can see if the undock is clear and I could care less whether or not scrams would prevent docking.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Eva Glentis
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Posted - 2010.04.16 17:22:00 -
[24]
Why are you guys making this so complicated. Where do station/docking games happen?
At stations with 50km docking range.
Fix - just change the station docking ranges. its not hard for a 3d modeler to change this invisible mesh.
Base the distance on BS subwarp speeds and the 15 second timer. 15 seconds at 90m/s. so docking point will be 1.5km away from where the ship undocks. hence a plated BS will be on the 0 docking point, making it a rush for seconds for a ship to bump the ship off docking point. cruisers and frigates which are more agile. will travel further out from docking point(as they are faster) and will have to try to burn back to docking range. put due to their agility might be able to warp. that way it all comes down to player skill. for attacters and for defenders.
my 2 cents. I've been a Merc for a long while in high sec and these docking ranges drove me out of high sec to 0.0
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Huan CK
GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.19 05:55:00 -
[25]
I'm in favour of removing timers once and for all and to do the docking sphere thingy!
Pilot skill >> stupid timers ;)
Bumping ships out of docking ranges and making docking ranges small is far better and more fun pvp ---------
My videos: Watch on youtube. |
Kilmatar
GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.19 07:34:00 -
[26]
i think the docking range of all stations should be around 500m, that will basiclly make all stations in to a kick out station. but knowing ccp that probablly wont happen so that makes Zarch's idea a good one imo
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Dogfighter
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Posted - 2010.04.19 12:21:00 -
[27]
No support at all. Docking is ok as it is now.
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Zarch AlDain
GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.20 17:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dogfighter No support at all. Docking is ok as it is now.
TBH I'm fine with it as it is now. That's not what sparked this proposal.
This proposal was sparked by a serious CSM proposal (that I gather got as far as CCP) that Warp Scrams should flat-out block docking. Something that might have just about been ok if you removed aggression timers (so you can kill/jam tacklers and then dock) but tbh would be sort-of-sucky even then.
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.04.20 18:24:00 -
[29]
Quote: This proposal was sparked by a serious CSM proposal (that I gather got as far as CCP) that Warp Scrams should flat-out block docking.
How could that be seriously considered by intelligent people who understand the game?
I'd expect that sort of thing from noobs or the regular crazies.
Even if someone seriously believes that docking should be limited by a module, it would go without saying that new scouting tool would have to be added - to allow docked people to check for campers outside the station. Failure to recognize such a simple common sense thing would be a sign that the person is not qualified for design decision making.
If we get past that, there's still a big question whether warp scrambler is the right module for the job. Logically it doesn't make sense, but may be seriously considered for lack of better options. Following that, other modules should be seriously considered, such as stasis web. Logically it makes more sense. From game balance it would also be a better idea since web has become the "lesser" tackle module since the great nerf, with warp scramble and disruptor taking primary roles.
Having said that, I'm against modifying docking mechanism at this time. But I would be understanding of the change if I could see it was done by people who show clear understanding of the game. I just hate seeing people in charge show bad judgment and lack of understanding on things they are supposed to be good at.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.04.20 21:57:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Quote: This proposal was sparked by a serious CSM proposal (that I gather got as far as CCP) that Warp Scrams should flat-out block docking.
How could that be seriously considered by intelligent people who understand the game?
It obviously was not considered by intelligent people who understand the game, then.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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