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Jerid Verges
Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.04.04 09:10:00 -
[1]
I know this idea has been discussed to death, most Miners hate the idea of an ingame mining captcha to combat macroers.
I am however unfamiliar with how effective macroers can be to beat the system. And was wondering if anybody knows if a good macro can beat an ingame captcha? I mean, it is one issue if Miners don't want captchas just because they are lazy, but it is another issue entirely if they would just be useless anyways.
Because really, if Captchas could defeat macroers, there is really no reason to complain against them. I have heard players whine that it descriminates against afk miners. But, as a Miner, I know that a player has to check back with their Barge at least every 3 minutes, 6 if you want to push it. (Time to finish an unbonused cycle time x2) To either move ore to can/orca/etc or even just to check for belt rats. If you didn't have to respond to a captcha for at least 10 minutes even afk miners should be able to do it easy.
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Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2010.04.04 11:02:00 -
[2]
There is a concept in video game construction that was taught to me under the name of "flow".
When someone is in the flow, they are completely immersed in the game, and hence enjoying it. There are few better ways to make a successful game then to make a game that gets people in the flow.
Flow is not quite the same as immersion, however. You can be in flow, and not be thinking "I'm a gallente miner for real". Its not quite the same thing as trying to convince an RPG player they really ARE a sword wielding hero. A better word then immersion might be focus.
If someone is unable to get into flow, its a dodgy game, but still a playable one perhaps, if the mechanics are good enough. But if you break someone out of flow once they are in flow, its a bad feeling. If you took someone who was high on weed, and zapped it out of their system, it would be a similar effect.
I assure you, there are few better ways to break someone out of flow then to suddenly and for no reason pop a huge captcha window into their face. Such an object doesn't even pretend to be part of the game and it would cop so much critical flack it wouldn't be funny. Since mining is what most new players do to earn money, it would be a terminal move for CCP to implement mining captcha's, which is why they have not done so and never will.
TL;DR idea wont work, come up with something that wont break people out of flow.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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shady trader
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Posted - 2010.04.04 11:33:00 -
[3]
A while ago there was a web article looking at macro's used to spam web comments. They were talking in excesses of 60% success on first try.
Also a lot of the so called macros are someone running 10 accounts in a sweet shop, so there will be someone able to manually solve the catcha.
If you do a search, this whole area has been discussed to death a number of times. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Jerid Verges
Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.04.04 15:22:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
TL;DR idea wont work, come up with something that wont break people out of flow.
Lolwhut? I can already tell you this 'Flow' thing is BS. Anybody wasting their time mining (And doing it right) hits Alt+Tab quite a lot and if you think that is any more immersion breaking then a dumb captcha I don't know what is. Most newbs move on to other things after mining when they realize it is boring.
By the way. Any true miner wouldn't care about a captcha since if it stops bots it boosts mineral prices and makes us get more profit.
But thanks dude for explaining the Macro thing. Didn't know if they'd get through it so I guess it is folly anyways. Thnx.
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Javaholic
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Posted - 2010.04.05 12:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Jerid Verges I know this idea has been discussed to death, most Miners hate the idea of an ingame mining captcha to combat macroers.
I am however unfamiliar with how effective macroers can be to beat the system. And was wondering if anybody knows if a good macro can beat an ingame captcha? I mean, it is one issue if Miners don't want captchas just because they are lazy, but it is another issue entirely if they would just be useless anyways.
Because really, if Captchas could defeat macroers, there is really no reason to complain against them. I have heard players whine that it descriminates against afk miners. But, as a Miner, I know that a player has to check back with their Barge at least every 3 minutes, 6 if you want to push it. (Time to finish an unbonused cycle time x2) To either move ore to can/orca/etc or even just to check for belt rats. If you didn't have to respond to a captcha for at least 10 minutes even afk miners should be able to do it easy.
I donÆt know every time I see a macro post, I think how WoW and Blizzard were able to drop the hammer on it. They embedded additional software in the game called warden, they update it to detect commercial bots/macroÆs.
Instead of banning accounts like blizzard, remove the accountÆs industrial SPÆs first time caught, 2nd time caught û ban the account, repeat offender same IP address û ban the IP.
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Kara Sharalien
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Posted - 2010.04.05 12:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jerid Verges
Originally by: Kara Sharalien
TL;DR idea wont work, come up with something that wont break people out of flow.
Lolwhut? I can already tell you this 'Flow' thing is BS. Anybody wasting their time mining (And doing it right) hits Alt+Tab quite a lot and if you think that is any more immersion breaking then a dumb captcha I don't know what is.
Except that alt-tabbing is a decision by the player. Suspending flow or voluntarily leaving it is not the same as having it shattered at random intervals.
Originally by: Jerid Verges By the way. Any true miner wouldn't care about a captcha since if it stops bots it boosts mineral prices and makes us get more profit.[/quote
By the way. Any true miner would know a captcha would not have that effect since the market will still be flooded by recycled minerals from t1 mission loot, and thats having a much worse effect on the market then macros could ever hope to.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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shady trader
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Posted - 2010.04.05 14:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Javaholic
I donÆt know every time I see a macro post, I think how WoW and Blizzard were able to drop the hammer on it. They embedded additional software in the game called warden, they update it to detect commercial bots/macroÆs.
Instead of banning accounts like blizzard, remove the accountÆs industrial SPÆs first time caught, 2nd time caught û ban the account, repeat offender same IP address û ban the IP.
While I agree with the sentiment, banning on IP address is not practical. In the UK for example the majority of IP address used by homes are dynamic, so you cannot be sure that you are banning people involved. Also so places like university's use gateway's so eve only sees one IP address for every player on that network.
Much better to do something based on the windows id, that they you can kill all the account on that machine and the macro runner needs to reinstall or reimage the machine before rebuilding their macro operation.
I think the most effective way to deal with macro farmers is much simpler. find the people buying and kill their accounts. With no demand the supply of farmed isk will start to dry up. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2010.04.05 14:15:00 -
[8]
I'm sure that this has been beaten to death all over the forums, but is it possible to detect these through monitoring commands to the server? Since its a program these things have to be operating on some kind of a pattern, right? To keep down server load it could be tied to a command like the report spam function. So you report the person you think is the macroer and their server activity is monitored for a short while until it can be determined that there is or isn't a pattern. "Aghast the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is." |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.05 14:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: KaiserSoze434 I'm sure that this has been beaten to death all over the forums, but is it possible to detect these through monitoring commands to the server? Since its a program these things have to be operating on some kind of a pattern, right? To keep down server load it could be tied to a command like the report spam function. So you report the person you think is the macroer and their server activity is monitored for a short while until it can be determined that there is or isn't a pattern.
if the bot author is half way competent, this gets very hard.
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Istvann
Minmatar Order Reliance and Belonging
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Posted - 2010.04.05 17:21:00 -
[10]
Quote: Much better to do something based on the windows id, that they you can kill all the account on that machine and the macro runner needs to reinstall or reimage the machine before rebuilding their macro operation.
This would open up CCP to legal action as they cannot manipulate or disable the OS in anyway. Sony tried similar things in the past with Everquest and had to reverse that.
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shady trader
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Posted - 2010.04.05 19:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Istvann
Quote: Much better to do something based on the windows id, that they you can kill all the account on that machine and the macro runner needs to reinstall or reimage the machine before rebuilding their macro operation.
This would open up CCP to legal action as they cannot manipulate or disable the OS in anyway. Sony tried similar things in the past with Everquest and had to reverse that.
I meant that CCP would black list the ID not alter the OS at all. The macro miners would have to reinstall to get a themselves a new ID. Macrointel, the place were the nature order of the universe does not hold sway. Pirates and ore thief's are congratulated by carebears for the actions. |
Elzon1
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Posted - 2010.04.05 19:20:00 -
[12]
I think the real question we should be asking ourselves is what sort of in-game mechanism could be used that would drain the macro programs resources so much as to not be profitable? Of course such a mechanism needs to be applied as a feature requiring player activity during mining and should give a bonus.... say like, 8 times faster mining possible when using the feature. Of course you wouldn't want to affect the mineral markets so while adding this feature the overall mining yield/speed could be reduced based upon an average of user activity... can be adjusted over time of course. What we need is something that will slow down their computers enough to where it is no longer profitable to use the macro programs versus an active player.
Such a mechanic could also be added on to later so as to make it even harder for macroers to be profitable as well as add on even more useful components for the active player. LetÆs say selective mining of asteroids so as to mine more of the most profitable mineral in that rock. This mechanic could be modified somewhat for mining ice and gases.
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