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Radix Salvilines
The Gummy Bears
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Posted - 2010.04.10 17:27:00 -
[31]
[i]
a very sad day...
the world today is very different compared to the world as it was yesterday...
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:25:00 -
[32]
I do not believe in coincidence.
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Capsuleers of Doom
Opticon Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:28:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Vai Aaxone
ps. Smolensk airport doesn't have ILS system.
/tinfoil status: crumpled. 
No Zeba, but you see the pilot was sympathetic to Putin because
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Malaclypse Muscaria
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Posted - 2010.04.10 18:57:00 -
[34]
Kaczynski was one of the main eurosceptic political figures in Europe (that is, he opposed further European integration, among other things). Thus, if anything, his position in this regard was in accordance to Russia's interests and the anti-NWO conspiranoid nuts, who don't want to see a unified, strong and centralized Europe, and much less when it comes to former communist block countries.
But then, you are wasting your time if you are looking for rational congruency in tin-foil hattery.
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 19:41:00 -
[35]
Whether or not Russia actually was behind this atrocity will never be clear. Conveniently, it happened on Russian soil therefore they control the flow of information. The Russians will give their version of the event and there will be no way to verify it, and the only people who could dispute it are now dead.
To those who claim that Russia 'would never' do something like this: Get real. History is clear on this point. Putin uses any and all tools at his disposal to advance Russian interests, up to and including open warfare against much smaller nations. The Russian government is certainly capable of assassination on this scale - to think otherwise is naive at best.
And Russia was very displeased with Polish cooperation with the US Govt on the Midcourse Missile Defense system.
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Warhead K
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.10 19:42:00 -
[36]
That crash was a tragedy. It's shocking. Too many people, too many people that everyone took for granted they'd see in TV for the next couple of years to come, dead all of a sudden. One of the dead was a friend of my family to boot. :(
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Lt Forge
Pilots From Honour
Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 19:46:00 -
[37]
1: RIP and condolences.
2: Polish/Russian muslims 
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.10 20:20:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Irida Mershkov
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Vai Aaxone
ps. Smolensk airport doesn't have ILS system.
/tinfoil status: crumpled.
No Zeba, but you see the pilot was sympathetic to Putin because
Oh I only meant that the ILS tinfoil was foiled. Things are just a little too coincedental for my inquireing mind. I'm sure intelligence agencys across the globe are like minded and currently pulling in all the intel jockeys they can wake up and get to the computer. One thing will probably be certain though is that if it does end up being something tinfoiley it will be someone with a grudge against poland and/or russia who is the culprit. Putin is ambitious and dangerous but not nearly stupid enough to do something like this. Or it was just pilot error. Sadly if it does end up being a conspiracy then we will never know about it until the documents are dug out of an archive half a century or moar from now.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist
Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
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Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 20:52:00 -
[39]
I'm not Polish. But if I was, I'd be hacked.
Never buy into that 'time of mourning' nonsense. Thats liberal-speak for have a good cry and turn the other cheek, until they slap you again.
Its time to get angry. Get out there and burn some Russian flags tomorrow, or better yet burn a Putin effigy. Make some headlines. Its democracy in action - elect a militantly anti-Russian government that won't give Russia the time of day. Isolate them completely.
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no! Arab cities burned, and old Sadam danced on the end of a rope.
Yes, Poland is <<<<< weaker than Russia, but that doesn't mean they have to grin and bear it when Russia is stepping on their necks.
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Zions Child
Caldari
Carthage Industries
Consortium.
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Posted - 2010.04.10 20:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
I'm not Polish. But if I was, I'd be hacked.
Never buy into that 'time of mourning' nonsense. Thats liberal-speak for have a good cry and turn the other cheek, until they slap you again.
Its time to get angry. Get out there and burn some Russian flags tomorrow, or better yet burn a Putin effigy. Make some headlines. Its democracy in action - elect a militantly anti-Russian government that won't give Russia the time of day. Isolate them completely.
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no! Arab cities burned, and old Sadam danced on the end of a rope.
Yes, Poland is <<<<< weaker than Russia, but that doesn't mean they have to grin and bear it when Russia is stepping on their necks.
*sigh* and burning the Arab cities was of course, the correct course of action.
Either way, I hope Poland can move past this, and that Russia was not involved in any way beyond being a place of coincidence. If it was Russia's fault then they need to be dealt with, but reactionary violence never helps anything...
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Originally by: CCP Shadow
This thread has been emasculated. *click*
Originally by: CCP Shadow
*snip* Castration successful. Shadow.
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frsd
Caldari
Kleinrock Heavy Industries
The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:05:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
I'm not Polish. But if I was, I'd be hacked.
Never buy into that 'time of mourning' nonsense. Thats liberal-speak for have a good cry and turn the other cheek, until they slap you again.
Its time to get angry. Get out there and burn some Russian flags tomorrow, or better yet burn a Putin effigy. Make some headlines. Its democracy in action - elect a militantly anti-Russian government that won't give Russia the time of day. Isolate them completely.
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no! Arab cities burned, and old Sadam danced on the end of a rope.
Yes, Poland is <<<<< weaker than Russia, but that doesn't mean they have to grin and bear it when Russia is stepping on their necks.
I think ive seen this somewhere before. 
Sharing is a nice gesture. Stupid but nice... |
Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:07:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Zions Child
If it was Russia's fault then they need to be dealt with, but reactionary violence never helps anything...
With the exception of Haliburtons stock value of course.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Haruhiists - Redeclaring open warfare on Out of Pod since 2010. |
Tallaran Kouros
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:16:00 -
[43]
I have lots of Polish friends and they are in shock over this :(
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:20:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Did the US turn the other cheek when Muslim terrorists toppled the World Trade Center? Hell no!
Not to mention the Gulf of Tonkin!
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:30:00 -
[45]
Oh FFS, enough with the tinfoil hattery. Russia had nothing to do with this, it was 100% pilot error.
IFR Approaches 101, for the non-pilot: instrument approaches have a minimum safe altitude. You do NOT descend below this altitude unless you can see the runway, because below it you are no longer guaranteed to be clear of obstacles on the ground. You might get lucky sometimes (since the minimum altitude does have a margin of error), but it's ****ing stupid and often ends in a smoking crater off the end of the runway.
This altitude depends on the type of IFR approaches. ILS approaches can have fairly low minimum safe altitudes (even allowing the autopilot to fly the plane all the way to the ground, at a properly-equipped airport) because the ILS gives you vertical guidance. Non-ILS approaches only give you horizontal guidance, so the minimum safe altitude is set well above the surface. IOW, a non-ILS approach can get you through the clouds and down to a point where you break out of the clouds and can see the runway, but it doesn't get you all the way there.
Now, here's the important thing: the airport in question did not have an ILS approach, which means that the pilot should not have been anywhere near the ground without the runway visible out the window. There is nothing the Russians could have done to cause him to crash.
What we have in this case is a textbook screwup by the pilot that is far too common:
1) Pilot flies the instrument approach down to the minimum safe altitude, but doesn't see the runway yet.
2) Pilot for some reason (perhaps his passengers really want to get to their political event on time) decides that he MUST land there, and continues to descend instead of aborting the approach and diverting to an alternate airport.
3) Pilot discovers why the minimum safe altitude exists, and maybe has just enough time to scream "OH ****" as the crash site finally becomes visible out the window.
The fact that the pilot not only refused the suggestion of alternate airports before landing, but made multiple attempts to fly the same approach instead of diverting after the first failure is a pretty strong suggestion that this is exactly what happened.
Unless the pilot was a Russian suicide agent (and in that case, it's just as "reasonable" to think that the pilot was a Polish suicide agent trying to create anger at Russia), this was nothing more than a ****ing idiot killing himself and all of his passengers.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:42:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, enough with the tinfoil hattery. Russia had nothing to do with this, it was 100% pilot error.
IFR Approaches 101, for the non-pilot: instrument approaches have a minimum safe altitude. You do NOT descend below this altitude unless you can see the runway, because below it you are no longer guaranteed to be clear of obstacles on the ground. You might get lucky sometimes (since the minimum altitude does have a margin of error), but it's ****ing stupid and often ends in a smoking crater off the end of the runway.
This altitude depends on the type of IFR approaches. ILS approaches can have fairly low minimum safe altitudes (even allowing the autopilot to fly the plane all the way to the ground, at a properly-equipped airport) because the ILS gives you vertical guidance. Non-ILS approaches only give you horizontal guidance, so the minimum safe altitude is set well above the surface. IOW, a non-ILS approach can get you through the clouds and down to a point where you break out of the clouds and can see the runway, but it doesn't get you all the way there.
Now, here's the important thing: the airport in question did not have an ILS approach, which means that the pilot should not have been anywhere near the ground without the runway visible out the window. There is nothing the Russians could have done to cause him to crash.
What we have in this case is a textbook screwup by the pilot that is far too common:
1) Pilot flies the instrument approach down to the minimum safe altitude, but doesn't see the runway yet.
2) Pilot for some reason (perhaps his passengers really want to get to their political event on time) decides that he MUST land there, and continues to descend instead of aborting the approach and diverting to an alternate airport.
3) Pilot discovers why the minimum safe altitude exists, and maybe has just enough time to scream "OH ****" as the crash site finally becomes visible out the window.
The fact that the pilot not only refused the suggestion of alternate airports before landing, but made multiple attempts to fly the same approach instead of diverting after the first failure is a pretty strong suggestion that this is exactly what happened.
Unless the pilot was a Russian suicide agent (and in that case, it's just as "reasonable" to think that the pilot was a Polish suicide agent trying to create anger at Russia), this was nothing more than a ****ing idiot killing himself and all of his passengers.
I love you sometimes Merin. This is one of those times.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
WIP
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Reyold Bengali
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.10 21:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, enough with the tinfoil hattery. Russia had nothing to do with this, it was 100% pilot error.
IFR Approaches 101, for the non-pilot: instrument approaches have a minimum safe altitude. You do NOT descend below this altitude unless you can see the runway, because below it you are no longer guaranteed to be clear of obstacles on the ground. You might get lucky sometimes (since the minimum altitude does have a margin of error), but it's ****ing stupid and often ends in a smoking crater off the end of the runway.
This altitude depends on the type of IFR approaches. ILS approaches can have fairly low minimum safe altitudes (even allowing the autopilot to fly the plane all the way to the ground, at a properly-equipped airport) because the ILS gives you vertical guidance. Non-ILS approaches only give you horizontal guidance, so the minimum safe altitude is set well above the surface. IOW, a non-ILS approach can get you through the clouds and down to a point where you break out of the clouds and can see the runway, but it doesn't get you all the way there.
Now, here's the important thing: the airport in question did not have an ILS approach, which means that the pilot should not have been anywhere near the ground without the runway visible out the window. There is nothing the Russians could have done to cause him to crash.
What we have in this case is a textbook screwup by the pilot that is far too common:
1) Pilot flies the instrument approach down to the minimum safe altitude, but doesn't see the runway yet.
2) Pilot for some reason (perhaps his passengers really want to get to their political event on time) decides that he MUST land there, and continues to descend instead of aborting the approach and diverting to an alternate airport.
3) Pilot discovers why the minimum safe altitude exists, and maybe has just enough time to scream "OH ****" as the crash site finally becomes visible out the window.
The fact that the pilot not only refused the suggestion of alternate airports before landing, but made multiple attempts to fly the same approach instead of diverting after the first failure is a pretty strong suggestion that this is exactly what happened.
Unless the pilot was a Russian suicide agent (and in that case, it's just as "reasonable" to think that the pilot was a Polish suicide agent trying to create anger at Russia), this was nothing more than a ****ing idiot killing himself and all of his passengers.
Could have been coming in on PAR as well (if the airfield in question was so equipped).
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Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
Herr Wilkus
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:05:00 -
[48]
Another news flash:
Says here that none other than Vladimir Putin himself will be leading the crash investigation. I'm sure millions are relieved to hear he is taking personal responsibility for fact finding in this matter. I'm sure within a few days they'll be able to tell us exactly how many lines of ******* Polish pilot did before this flight and demand Polish reparations for damaging their forest.
Looking forward to more croc tears and hearing from more Russian apologists.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:06:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/04/2010 22:07:35
Originally by: Reyold Bengali
Could have been coming in on PAR as well (if the airfield in question was so equipped).
True, I forgot to mention that one since it's so rare. However:
1) PAR approaches still have a minimum safe altitude. Since the altimeter is inside the airplane, there is nothing the Russians could have done to prevent the pilot from breaking off the approach (as he should) once he reached that altitude without seeing the runway.
2) Even if the controller somehow wanted to kill the pilot by giving bad instructions, and the pilot somehow didn't notice that he had passed the minimum safe altitude, why would it take multiple approaches? Standard procedure would be to divert to an alternate airport after the first missed approach, so you still have the pilot screwing up and being too focused on landing at the primary airport at all costs.
Originally by: Herr Wilkus
Another news flash:
Says here that none other than Vladimir Putin himself will be leading the crash investigation. I'm sure millions are relieved to hear he is taking personal responsibility for fact finding in this matter. I'm sure within a few days they'll be able to tell us exactly how many lines of ******* Polish pilot did before this flight and demand Polish reparations for damaging their forest.
Looking forward to more croc tears and hearing from more Russian apologists.
Oh FFS, before you keep ranting on about "Russian apologists", please read my posts explaining how instrument approaches and then explain how the Russians could have caused this accident without the Polish pilot screwing up.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:15:00 -
[50]
My condolences to the people of Poland.
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Malaclypse Muscaria
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, before you keep ranting on about "Russian apologists", please read my posts explaining how instrument approaches and then explain how the Russians could have caused this accident without the Polish pilot screwing up.
The same way the Russians also spawned the thick fog that "coincidentally" was covering the area: Grand Magus Rasputin's awesome psychic powers of doom. And btw, notice another funny "coincidence"? Rasputin...
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:19:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Malaclypse Muscaria
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Oh FFS, before you keep ranting on about "Russian apologists", please read my posts explaining how instrument approaches and then explain how the Russians could have caused this accident without the Polish pilot screwing up.
The same way the Russians also spawned the thick fog that "coincidentally" was covering the area: Grand Magus Rasputin's awesome psychic powers of doom. And btw, notice another funny "coincidence"? Rasputin...
Don't forget the offending tree was planted back in the Stalin's time. Coincidence?
...
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TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari
NailorTech Industries
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:20:00 -
[53]
I can not imagine how this is going to affect russia, literally wiping out half the government in one go 
_______________________
Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Jill Xelitras
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:22:00 -
[54]
I wanted to express my sympathy to the polish people.
Poland is an integral and important part of Europe and NATO member. Trying to portray an accident as a government authorized mass killing of politicians is ridiculous in a very unfunny way.
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Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Zions Child
but I currently refuse to believe that someone would have no trouble executing about a hundred people.
I am not not jumping to any conclusions, but what world are you living in again?
Slade
:Signature Temporarily Disabled: |
Reyold Bengali
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:30:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/04/2010 22:07:35
Originally by: Reyold Bengali
Could have been coming in on PAR as well (if the airfield in question was so equipped).
True, I forgot to mention that one since it's so rare. However:
1) PAR approaches still have a minimum safe altitude. Since the altimeter is inside the airplane, there is nothing the Russians could have done to prevent the pilot from breaking off the approach (as he should) once he reached that altitude without seeing the runway.
2) Even if the controller somehow wanted to kill the pilot by giving bad instructions, and the pilot somehow didn't notice that he had passed the minimum safe altitude, why would it take multiple approaches? Standard procedure would be to divert to an alternate airport after the first missed approach, so you still have the pilot screwing up and being too focused on landing at the primary airport at all costs.
Agreed. Final responsibility is with the pilot. No way in hell he could have gone below MSA without having multiple instrument failures, which normally means both radar and barometric altimeters (each with a backup). As far as Precision Approach being rare, that holds true for civilian airfields, military fields are far more likely to have them.
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Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
Pr1ncess Alia
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:33:00 -
[57]
absolutely tragic
"A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox, and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game." |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:42:00 -
[58]
Putin, Tusk lay flowers at plane crash site near Smolensk
...
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Arianhod
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:55:00 -
[59]
Been watching this thread since it started to be honest...
And some of you guys, if you honestly beleive in the conspiracys, have a few issues you need to resolve other than just why a plane crashed. **** happens, this was a tradgedy because it was avoidable. Merin summerised it perfectly so I won't repeat it : this was a pilot ****up. Russians arent all by default ebil power hungry bastards that smack down their underlings.
That said, my condolences to the Polish people here.
Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Haruhiists - Redeclaring open warfare on Out of Pod since 2010. |
Barakkus
Caelestis Iudicium
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Posted - 2010.04.10 22:59:00 -
[60]
The AP is reporting that the pilot was told to divert b/c of conditions at the airport, he ignored the suggestion and tried to land anyways.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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