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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.11 22:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Poses
same for the scimi plox (and maybe a little more cap and pg so you can cram that 4th transfer on there with an MWD and lse)
or instead, 125m^3 drone bay with 50m^3 band width and a 10% bonus to drone dmg and hit points
(i think i came a little)
I dunno - the scimitar is fast, agile, and has a useful small gang bonus (shield transporter). The Oneiros is kinda left in the cold in this way. I'd be +1 to moving the tracking link bonus to something else - but probably not drone based. Maybe sig radius?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Poses
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Posted - 2010.04.11 23:11:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I dunno - the scimitar is fast, agile, and has a useful small gang bonus (shield transporter). The Oneiros is kinda left in the cold in this way. I'd be +1 to moving the tracking link bonus to something else - but probably not drone based. Maybe sig radius?
-Liang
i agree to this, finally an ab scimi can have a smaller sig radius then a frig. i approve this message
(in all seriousness i'd settle for a little more cap and pg on the scimi and a speed/agility boost on the oneros)
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.12 00:39:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Diomidis on 12/04/2010 00:40:09
Originally by: Poses
Originally by: Liang Nuren I dunno - the scimitar is fast, agile, and has a useful small gang bonus (shield transporter). The Oneiros is kinda left in the cold in this way. I'd be +1 to moving the tracking link bonus to something else - but probably not drone based. Maybe sig radius?
-Liang
i agree to this, finally an ab scimi can have a smaller sig radius then a frig. i approve this message
(in all seriousness i'd settle for a little more cap and pg on the scimi and a speed/agility boost on the oneros)
Well, the Logistic T2 versions of T1 hulls kinda have that bonus already build-in compared to their T1 hulls, so what you ask is already there...
Double sig radius bonuses are unlike to happen, unless something else is nerfed...
Also cap wise, the Scimitar is crazy, so i wouldn't push my lack arguing against that either...
Probably you should argue for a tracking link boost or change instead...would make a lot more sense. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Azeroth Uluntil
Caldari Problematique Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.12 01:27:00 -
[34]
Logistics are fine. If you are having problems with them, you don't know how to use them beyond stupid empire games.
Also, oneiros the worst? Not likely.
Basilisk is a scimitar on steroids when you pair it with another. As is the guardian when compared to the oneiros.
Tracking links are highly undervalued.
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Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.12 09:40:00 -
[35]
I say they're all prettty good in their seperate ways.
If you are looking at pure logistics potential the scimitar comes in last but that's a minmatar aspect we can't focus in exchange for having nano & flexibility. A lot of minmatar ships are like this it's not just a minor imbalance it's racial balance, of course you can argue that this isn't the best way to do things (like I do) but complaining about indvidual ships aint quite right. And at least for the scimitar things seem to be working out pretty much in it's favour.
Pls note I've never flown oneires so I got nfi about it, it might need some love and some drones would be perfect gallente need their drone strength worked into more of their ships I think.
Lastly as a crazy inventor I came up with an idea to boost the scimi/Oneir change the secondary bonus to:
10% bonus to remote ECCM, remote sensor boosters and remote tracking links per level.
Range bonus adjusted as well...... of course this could lead to hic's having the lock speed of intercepters and the sensor strength of carriers but don't let that stop you.
------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 09:53:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Logistics are fine. If you are having problems with them, you don't know how to use them beyond stupid empire games.
Also, oneiros the worst? Not likely.
Basilisk is a scimitar on steroids when you pair it with another. As is the guardian when compared to the oneiros.
Tracking links are highly undervalued.
So you're saying that the other three are very good but oneiros isn't the worst? Also i would like to see examples of fights where tracking links made an actual difference.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.04.12 10:07:00 -
[37]
Tracking links are horrible. ---
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Azeroth Uluntil
Caldari Problematique Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.12 11:29:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Logistics are fine. If you are having problems with them, you don't know how to use them beyond stupid empire games.
Also, oneiros the worst? Not likely.
Basilisk is a scimitar on steroids when you pair it with another. As is the guardian when compared to the oneiros.
Tracking links are highly undervalued.
So you're saying that the other three are very good but oneiros isn't the worst? Also i would like to see examples of fights where tracking links made an actual difference.
I personally believe the scimitar is a piece of crap, especially when compared to its caldari counterpart(LOL, caldari better than minmatar)
The unfortunate thing about tracking links is that their bonus is hard to notice unless you are shooting at smaller ships. We usually tracking link zealots if we use oneiros over guardians. Definately prevents tackle from getting to us.
I'll post some links to fights later, but I'm sure you've seen some of the videos made by halsoy or lopez. If not, well, your loss.
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Baneken
Gallente Aseveljet Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.04.12 14:17:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Baneken on 12/04/2010 14:17:45 What oneiros needs is ability to field 5 heavies for repping ofc. you wouldn't field 5 ogre II/garde II from a logistics if you could or would you ? Would also give a nice little twist for those tracking link bonuses in oneiros...
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Amarr Supremacist
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Posted - 2010.04.12 14:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Logistics are fine. If you are having problems with them, you don't know how to use them beyond stupid empire games.
Also, oneiros the worst? Not likely.
Basilisk is a scimitar on steroids when you pair it with another. As is the guardian when compared to the oneiros.
Tracking links are highly undervalued.
So you're saying that the other three are very good but oneiros isn't the worst? Also i would like to see examples of fights where tracking links made an actual difference.
I personally believe the scimitar is a piece of crap, especially when compared to its caldari counterpart(LOL, caldari better than minmatar)
The unfortunate thing about tracking links is that their bonus is hard to notice unless you are shooting at smaller ships. We usually tracking link zealots if we use oneiros over guardians. Definately prevents tackle from getting to us.
I'll post some links to fights later, but I'm sure you've seen some of the videos made by halsoy or lopez. If not, well, your loss.
He said "made an actual difference" - tackle would not have reached you regardless. There's no need for tracking links. The reason Oneiros and Scimitar are still viable ships is not the tracking bonus, as most PvP'ers would know. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet! |
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 15:55:00 -
[41]
Exactly, as it stands there are a dozen other mods that you can fit instead of a tracking link that will help out more. No doubt some people fit them but they'd generally be better off with a remote sensor booster or god forbid, a target painter. (which helps tracking a target, incidentally)
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Poses
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Posted - 2010.04.12 16:07:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil I personally believe the scimitar is a piece of crap, especially when compared to its caldari counterpart(LOL, caldari better than minmatar)
really? i find that hard to believe.. unless you run RR shield fleets i don't see how this is possible. The simple fact is I've never heard an FC when asking for people to join a roam ask for bassi before scimi.
Scimi is fast, and more agile. This combined with keeping 3 reppers running and an MWD while out running around 95% of the ships IN THE GAME. Makes it bad ass, nearly impossible to kill and better then the bassi.
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Amarr Supremacist
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Posted - 2010.04.12 16:20:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Poses
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil I personally believe the scimitar is a piece of crap, especially when compared to its caldari counterpart(LOL, caldari better than minmatar)
really? i find that hard to believe.. unless you run RR shield fleets i don't see how this is possible. The simple fact is I've never heard an FC when asking for people to join a roam ask for bassi before scimi.
Scimi is fast, and more agile. This combined with keeping 3 reppers running and an MWD while out running around 95% of the ships IN THE GAME. Makes it bad ass, nearly impossible to kill and better then the bassi.
...yeah...no.
Look - it depends entirely on the kind of gang you are running. When we ran Drake gangs in TRI the call was often out for Basilisks over Scimitars simply because they rep far more. If you are running a Cynabal / Mach gang and all your ships go 3k+ with you constantly warping and repositioning then you will most likely ask for Scimitars. It depends entirely on your gang setup and what you intend to do with said gang, every logistics ship has their own role.
If you have never heard a call of Basilisks over Scimitars then you probably don't have very much PvP experience.
This entire thread is a bit of a waste. ____________ Intigo - go visit www.eve-arena.com for the best Battleclinic killboard replacement yet! |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.12 16:45:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist If you have never heard a call of Basilisks over Scimitars then you probably don't have very much PvP experience.
More pure arrogance, courtesy of Intigo. About the only time that I personally see calls for Basilisks is when someone wants a POS repped or they're going in a "heavy" Shield BS gang (lol?). That doesn't stem from a lack of experience - just perhaps from having a different idea of what is "fun" in Eve. I tend to want to fly in a gang with less than 10 people, but when I was flying with Tri we'd see 50 man nano gangs touted as "small gang". Just a totally different idea of how to play Eve.
IMO, Basilisks and Guardians are more "do or die" since they aren't very mobile. You get in, set up your logistics circle jerk, and pray you win. The Scimitar and Oneiros are both built on the idea of mobility and possibly having to GTFO. GTFO is really important in a flimsy T2 logistics.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Noisrevbus
Caldari Breams Gone Wild
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Posted - 2010.04.12 17:33:00 -
[45]
It's pretty amusing that between all the smacking, the whole balance has already been outlined.
Scimi and Guardian remain more popular because the gangs or situations where they shine are more frequent.
Scimi: Mobility, cap stability, small sig - fast shield (-HAC) gangs. Guardian: More lows for tanking, cap transfer, more highs for reps - heavy armor gangs.
The Basilisk and Oneiros are less popular, and gangs or situations where they are adopted are less common.
Basilisk: Cap transfer, more highs for reps (though no tanking slot advantage) - heavy shield gangs (Drake and up). Oneiros: Cap stability, mobility, more mids for electronic utility (R-ECCM, R-SB etc) - smaller armor (-HAC) gangs.
Beyond application or popularity, you can see that there are two things that set the Basilisk and Oneiros back a bit:
The Basilisk have main no tank slot advantage over the the Scimi. A common problem on many shield tanking ships, and even if you can slap a lowslot ECCM on there, the value of that slot is considerably lower in a 2-5-6 layout compared to a 4-5-4 layout in relation to a 5-2-6 layout. Beyond a damage control, the selection of modules for the Basilisk to fill it's second lowslot are both weaker and the selection more limited.
The Oneiros only real problem is that it doesn't measure up to the Scimi in it's base physiology. The Scimi sticks out, much like many other Minmatar ships, thanks to it's greatly improved mobility. While the Oneiros doesn't lack anything concrete, it doesn't have a nische of the same appeal to bandaid it's popularity. Whatever advantages it has is overshadowed by being dwarfed in the stats that count the most (mobility, signature etc.) without any considerable advantages in other departments.
So in the end, you could probably do something for the Basilisk and Oneiros - but they don't need anything concrete. You shouldn't balance around trend, so the only real issues you have to adress are pretty common problems, seen on most ships of the affected races. The Basilisk have some issues with slot allocation and fitting (not uncommon for Caldari, particularily the turret ships). The Oneiros have some issues with mobility-signature-tank ratios (issues present on several Gallente ships, especially the turret ships).
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:21:00 -
[46]
Liang, the speed difference between a scim and basil is actually quite small, and the basil has 6 highs so I'd call them equal for general purpose.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:32:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Sokratesz Liang, the speed difference between a scim and basil is actually quite small, and the basil has 6 highs so I'd call them equal for general purpose.
I'm going to have to call bull**** on this (no offense). Show me the Basi fit you think is (roughly) as fast and agile as a Scimitar.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2010.04.12 20:39:00 -
[48]
I'd always rated the Scimi higher than the Basilisk as well - if only because 60m signature, and more mids/lows - worse at 'pure logistics' but with more life expectancy than a wet trout.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:02:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sokratesz Liang, the speed difference between a scim and basil is actually quite small, and the basil has 6 highs so I'd call them equal for general purpose.
I'm going to have to call bull**** on this (no offense). Show me the Basi fit you think is (roughly) as fast and agile as a Scimitar.
-Liang
See for yourself :)
[Scimitar, New Setup 1] Reactor Control Unit II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Civilian Gatling Railgun, Civilian Railgun Charge
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
[Basilisk, New Setup 1] Reactor Control Unit II Power Diagnostic System II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution
Large Shield Transporter II Large Shield Transporter II Large Shield Transporter II Large Shield Transporter II Large Energy Transfer Array II Civilian Gatling Railgun, Civilian Railgun Charge
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
The basilisk fit needs to be in pairs obviously, but it aligns faster, has much more RR power and only gives in to the scimi when it comes to top speed and sig radius. If you don't care for the gun (can be a t2 light AC or w/e) in the last high, the basilisk can make modifications to fit another rr mod or cap transfer.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:04:00 -
[50]
That said, scimi is a great ship but its cap really sucks when you need to sustain RR for a longer amount of time.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:10:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sokratesz
The basilisk fit needs to be in pairs obviously, but it aligns faster, has much more RR power and only gives in to the scimi when it comes to top speed and sig radius. If you don't care for the gun (can be a t2 light AC or w/e) in the last high, the basilisk can make modifications to fit another rr mod or cap transfer.
I want so bad to say "yes, the Basilisk may appear faster and more agile if you failfit the Scimitar", but maybe that's the standard accepted Scimitar fit. If so:
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:14:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sokratesz
The basilisk fit needs to be in pairs obviously, but it aligns faster, has much more RR power and only gives in to the scimi when it comes to top speed and sig radius. If you don't care for the gun (can be a t2 light AC or w/e) in the last high, the basilisk can make modifications to fit another rr mod or cap transfer.
I want so bad to say "yes, the Basilisk may appear faster and more agile if you failfit the Scimitar", but maybe that's the standard accepted Scimitar fit. If so:
-Liang
It's what we run in groups of 4-5 to support anything shield buffered, and it works surprisingly well. How else would you fit it for that purpose?
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:15:00 -
[53]
yes scimitar is way too good compared to the others
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Azeroth Uluntil
Caldari Problematique Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:22:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Azeroth Uluntil on 12/04/2010 21:24:36 Edited by: Azeroth Uluntil on 12/04/2010 21:22:52
Originally by: Sokratesz That said, scimi is a great ship but its cap really sucks when you need to sustain RR for a longer amount of time.
Hence one of my biggest problems with it. Granted, not so much a problem if you don't need to mwd around alot, but, if you are a solo logistic, that is unlikely.
Edit: Your scimitar fit is fine, but the basilisk fit sucks. No point in trying to nano up a basilisk.
2nd Edit: I also believe that remote sensor boosters are nearly always a waste of a slot, as are sensor boosters on non-sniper ships/hictors. Killmail *****s irritate me.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Sokratesz It's what we run in groups of 4-5 to support anything shield buffered, and it works surprisingly well. How else would you fit it for that purpose?
With the disclaimer that I don't have EFT before me and I don't really fly the Scimitar (but I do fly the Basilisk on occasion): I'd be aiming to drop the LSE, SeBo, CPR, RCU for 2 nanos, cap recharger, and maybe something else - depending what fits. The LSE alone is almost a 50% increase in your sig radius.. which along with speed/agility is one of the few benefits a Scimitar has.
I think one thing I'd do is go look up Roemy's suggested Scimitar fit... I'm fairly sure his favorite fit had an AB and 2 nanos/overdrives. And that was back in the nano age...
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:39:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil
Hence one of my biggest problems with it. Granted, not so much a problem if you don't need to mwd around alot, but, if you are a solo logistic, that is unlikely.
Edit: Your scimitar fit is fine, but the basilisk fit sucks. No point in trying to nano up a basilisk.
2nd Edit: I also believe that remote sensor boosters are nearly always a waste of a slot, as are sensor boosters on non-sniper ships/hictors. Killmail *****s irritate me.
Yeah the basi fit isn't quite optimal. You can sacrifice some speed to get more EHP or more RR, whichever you like.
The sensorbooster is there to save your tacklers - inties, dictors are all primaried very often and require fastlock to be saved.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:41:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I think one thing I'd do is go look up Roemy's suggested Scimitar fit... I'm fairly sure his favorite fit had an AB and 2 nanos/overdrives. And that was back in the nano age...
-Liang
He uses them for quite different purposes though but his fits are good in their own right. Without an LSE, a scim just has too little buffer for what we do with them.
CSM Iceland meeting minutes - READ THEM :D |
Azeroth Uluntil
Caldari Problematique Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.12 21:53:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I think one thing I'd do is go look up Roemy's suggested Scimitar fit... I'm fairly sure his favorite fit had an AB and 2 nanos/overdrives. And that was back in the nano age...
-Liang
He uses them for quite different purposes though but his fits are good in their own right. Without an LSE, a scim just has too little buffer for what we do with them.
Quite literally the first thought I had when I saw liangs post. I'm probably more biased towards using the basilisk because it, like the guardian, can just feed cap to other ships with one of the extra transfers. That little ability has proved handy time and time again for our guardian useage. I think your alliance has run into our gangs, when we were in CH anyhow... :-)
Link: http://www.battledb.com/2009/06/17/catchhed-gp-aaa-c-suicide-squad-vs-cry-havoc-june-17-0730/
Also, oneiros for best armor assault frigate support(No tracking links)
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GavinGoodrich
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.04.13 01:00:00 -
[59]
Edited by: GavinGoodrich on 13/04/2010 01:01:12 As you can tell there's about 80 bajillion different flavors of logistic fits, for just about every kind of logistic ship.
Some things to base your fits/ship selection on:
Speed or power? Some logistics have more sustainable rep power than others (guardian/basi being able to permarun everything with cap to spare, using the spider-cap thing)
Shields or armor? (dur-hay...I know)
Are your fleet buds pretty cap stable by themselves, or will they need cap transfers on an extended fight?
How many of the peeps you usually fly with can fly guardians/basis? Is everyone there a scim pilot? Doubt you'd have much fun finding a basi partner most of the time.
Do you guys do more BC and down shield gangs or armor gangs? RR BS's? Do you have around in one spot for decent lengths of time, or do you roam pretty quickly?
I'm partial to Basis 'cause I've had a lot of close call reps before...fleet guy hitting struc...both of us overheating our reps (4 each, he would have died with a scimmy's 3 each if that was the case, right?) just barely holding out until the fight swung our way. I also HATE that I have to have a buddy to use it efficiently, and can't wait to get a scimmy for a little more independence.
On paper, yeah the bonuses dont' stack up very well, nor do the highslots. However, Oneiros/scims are pretty self-sufficient. If the spider-cap is broken from jams/neuts/death/etc...you can more or less kiss that 2nd bonus goodbye \o |
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2010.04.13 22:10:00 -
[60]
I'd like to see al logistics get more survivability. I'd like to see the scimi go a little faster, and the basi and guardian get a lot more EHP, and the oneiros get SOMETHING to make it worth flying.
It really annoys me that the logistics ships (ie those with the fewest reps on them) get the lowest amount of buffer. Thats what put me off taking my guardian out into pvp, because i've seen the damn things get instapopped. Being the obvious primary for jams and DPS, you start to feel a little hated on.
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