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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.26 20:20:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Mark Hadden cloaking is an official gameplay mechanic as local, so while you considering cloaking as unfair, I'm ready to state the local is unfair, so making it partially useless by afk cloaking in a system is all right and requred to circumvent local as intel.
Cloaking is an official gameplay mechanic. AFK cloaking is not. I am not saying its exploitative, just pointing out how hilarious it is that you are making the claim that you're using it to circumvent game mechanics and achieve advantages that are not intended. --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
Guy Verhofstadt
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Posted - 2010.04.26 20:31:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Mark Hadden cloaking is an official gameplay mechanic as local, so while you considering cloaking as unfair, I'm ready to state the local is unfair, so making it partially useless by afk cloaking in a system is all right and requred to circumvent local as intel.
Cloaking is an official gameplay mechanic. AFK cloaking is not. I am not saying its exploitative, just pointing out how hilarious it is that you are making the claim that you're using it to circumvent game mechanics and achieve advantages that are not intended.
What exactly is not intended?
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.26 20:36:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Guy Verhofstadt What exactly is not intended?
That local by asymmetrical. --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
Daenosa
Pineal Squeegee
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Posted - 2010.04.26 21:25:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Goumindong
Cloaking is an official gameplay mechanic. AFK cloaking is not. I am not saying its exploitative, just pointing out how hilarious it is that you are making the claim that you're using it to circumvent game mechanics and achieve advantages that are not intended.
Im pretty sure CCP realised some people would use cloaks to sit AFK with when they were implemented, saying it was never intended is pushing it a bit. CCP has however mentioned they are looking into cloaks and ways they could limit AFK cloaking (check fan fest videos)
I think however this topic was about cloaking and how it makes you "invincible" and that cloaks should be probe able, that i disagree with
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.26 21:57:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Daenosa I think however this topic was about cloaking and how it makes you "invincible" and that cloaks should be probe able, that i disagree with
Disagree with what? That cloaking makes you invincible, or that cloaks should be probable?
Because arguing with the first one is pretty hilarious. You can't be probed or even targeted while cloaked. --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.04.26 22:34:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Goumindong Cloaking is an official gameplay mechanic. AFK cloaking is not. I am not saying its exploitative, just pointing out how hilarious it is that you are making the claim that you're using it to circumvent game mechanics and achieve advantages that are not intended.
I know it's pointless asking (and I'll most likely regret it), but since when did get put in charge, of what is and what isn't official in this game?
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.26 23:05:00 -
[367]
Just repeating dev statements/making inferences from dev actions --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.04.26 23:15:00 -
[368]
Link?
Not saying it's not true, just interested in reading the source or sources.
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.27 00:05:00 -
[369]
Originally by: Mag's Link?
Not saying it's not true, just interested in reading the source or sources.
Not sure which ones you would want to look at even if i could find them. --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.27 00:06:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Goumindong Not sure which ones you would want to look at even if i could find them.
Just post them all. some facts to the table please!
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.27 03:49:00 -
[371]
Man you guys like to twist everything into somthing it's not. Spin much?
The dudes just saying that if you put forward the arguement: "AFK Cloaking is used to defeat local as and intel gathering device", then you are trying to bypass game mechanics. Bypassing game mechanics is against the rules. CCP has also said, like it or not, until they come up with a better system, local is a valid intel gathering mechanic. There's not much they can do about it.
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Helixios
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Posted - 2010.04.27 05:37:00 -
[372]
Your mistake was assuming these guys are smart... Or that they knew how to hold a logic based argument...
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.04.27 05:42:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Torothanax Man you guys like to twist everything into somthing it's not. Spin much?
The dudes just saying that if you put forward the arguement: "AFK Cloaking is used to defeat local as and intel gathering device", then you are trying to bypass game mechanics. Bypassing game mechanics is against the rules. CCP has also said, like it or not, until they come up with a better system, local is a valid intel gathering mechanic. There's not much they can do about it.
The game mechanics that local provide is to give reliable information about who is is the system. AFK-cloaking does not in any way, shape or form bypass this functionality.
I think AFK-cloaking primarily was devised as a way to blur the correlation between someones presence in local and being under imminent threat from that presence.
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.27 06:10:00 -
[374]
Someone who is not playing the game is in the system as much as someone who is logged off is in the system --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
Kidzior
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Posted - 2010.04.27 06:34:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Helixios Your mistake was assuming these guys are smart... Or that they knew how to hold a logic based argument...
LOL :D
SIGNED!!
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Space Pinata
Amarr Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2010.04.27 06:42:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Torothanax Man you guys like to twist everything into somthing it's not. Spin much?
The dudes just saying that if you put forward the arguement: "AFK Cloaking is used to defeat local as and intel gathering device", then you are trying to bypass game mechanics. Bypassing game mechanics is against the rules. CCP has also said, like it or not, until they come up with a better system, local is a valid intel gathering mechanic. There's not much they can do about it.
I have also heard that using ECM to stop ships from locking is bypassing lock mechanics, and thus against the rules.
If you use neuts you are bypassing cap mechanics, which is against the rules.
Quote: Everyone says this is a fix for AFK cloakers. No one addresses the fact that, if probeable, cloaks do LITERALLY NOTHING for your ship. In fact, if cloaks could be probed, you'd be disadvantaged by fitting one, since you couldn't bounce safes or pre-align. In other words: you'd make the module do absolutely, literally, 100%, not a damn thing. "But it's hard to probe out" doesn't hold water, unless you let even prototype/improved cloaks warp while cloaked.
Please continue to ignore this and only quote/argue against the weakest argument you can find. It's easy to win when you simply ignore any of the valid counterpoints. |
Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.04.27 07:08:00 -
[377]
I bet there are thousands that are logged in but not actively playing, or afk-traveling/running missions. Local has never been able to differentiate between those actively playing and those browsing the interweb, making dinner or going on a hike, all while being logged into the game.
Other MMOGs disconnects players that goes inactive (no client input in certain time-frame). That would be the easy fix for AFK-cloaking. One could argue that as long as the reason for staying logged into the game is to try to influence other entities in the game, you are in fact playing. Personally, I have no problem with AFK-cloaking.
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Giakom
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Posted - 2010.04.27 08:08:00 -
[378]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard I bet there are thousands that are logged in but not actively playing, or afk-traveling/running missions. Local has never been able to differentiate between those actively playing and those browsing the interweb, making dinner or going on a hike, all while being logged into the game.
Other MMOGs disconnects players that goes inactive (no client input in certain time-frame). That would be the easy fix for AFK-cloaking. One could argue that as long as the reason for staying logged into the game is to try to influence other entities in the game, you are in fact playing. Personally, I have no problem with AFK-cloaking.
If you playing against others going afk is disturbing enemy activity (more or less) and there's no counter for that - and thats lame. But true is that CCP will do nothing with that because they focused on DUST stuff, look at old problems with POS for instance, or newest ones which appear (mostly) after Dominion - lag wich didnt appear in Apocrypha but are always in Dominion (in simillar fleet's fighting). The only the CCP is care is x-box and playStation players - eve ones? They used to play this game for years - it's not worth to care about ppl who are complaining but paying month by month ;p Or even double-logowsky? does CCP do something with that? Or typical trick (not a cheat - because it's accepted by CCP and it's trick so far ;p) - when you jumping through the gate, (enemy fleet is jumping after you) - you aligning to some celestial - w8 for "warp" message and push ctrl+q? Your ship will be staying near the gate, enemy could target it, shot to it - but it will dissapear after few sec (it's checked couple a times - and russian ppl are using it as much as they can because it's not a cheat according to official answer we got - and they using it with logistic because it's primary) - enemy are loosing their primary - think that enemy was died but... he is appear 1mln km from gate and he can go back into fight ;p All POS, LAG, Tricks issues are known but the most important is to care about dust - and to give some crap from time to time to eve ppl just to show some activity ;p Why they should do something with cloak'ed ****ers? they have no interest with that ;p
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.27 08:11:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Torothanax Man you guys like to twist everything into somthing it's not. Spin much?
The dudes just saying that if you put forward the arguement: "AFK Cloaking is used to defeat local as and intel gathering device", then you are trying to bypass game mechanics. Bypassing game mechanics is against the rules. CCP has also said, like it or not, until they come up with a better system, local is a valid intel gathering mechanic. There's not much they can do about it.
This was Mark Hadden's arguement, not mine. You all are the one's who tried to run with it. Originally by: Space Pinata I have also heard that using ECM to stop ships from locking is bypassing lock mechanics, and thus against the rules.
If you use neuts you are bypassing cap mechanics, which is against the rules.
Wow. I mean really... just wow. The only thing I can think to reply to this is: you're an idiot. Seriously wtf are you smoking? You should probably quit.
Originally by: Space Pinata Everyone says this is a fix for AFK cloakers. No one addresses the fact that, if probeable, cloaks do LITERALLY NOTHING for your ship. In fact, if cloaks could be probed, you'd be disadvantaged by fitting one, since you couldn't bounce safes or pre-align. In other words: you'd make the module do absolutely, literally, 100%, not a damn thing. "But it's hard to probe out" doesn't hold water, unless you let even prototype/improved cloaks warp while cloaked.
Please continue to ignore this and only quote/argue against the weakest argument you can find. It's easy to win when you simply ignore any of the valid counterpoints.
Hmmm let me see. If you are cloaked, no one can lock you, you don't show up on the overview or directional scanners, if you are on grid, no one know's exactly were you are. Wow, I mean even if someone did manage to probe you down and warp to you, it's not like they land close enough to decloak you. So how exactly would probes make cloaks do "LITERALLY NOTHING"?
Are you seriously dumb enough to not take covert ops cloaks and warping cloaked into account? That you can't figure out you can drop cloak and warp then recloak if have a normal cloak? That if you are pre aligned you don't even need a cloak because you can warp to the next SS or where ever instantly?
But hey, having a handicapped way of trying to track down a cloaked ship would make cloaks "do absolutely, litterally, 100%, not a damn thing." So is that what you were tryin to get across to the rest of us?
I'm pretty sure the only reason we were ignoring you, was because we've already covered this. I'm also pretty sure you're using standard "desperation" tactics and playing stupid to keep the debate going. At least I hope so. BTW the more attention this gets, the faster it gets seriously looked at. Please, by all means, continue.
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Bawidamek
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Posted - 2010.04.27 08:20:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Giakom
Originally by: Jack Icegaard I bet there are thousands that are logged in but not actively playing, or afk-traveling/running missions. Local has never been able to differentiate between those actively playing and those browsing the interweb, making dinner or going on a hike, all while being logged into the game.
Other MMOGs disconnects players that goes inactive (no client input in certain time-frame). That would be the easy fix for AFK-cloaking. One could argue that as long as the reason for staying logged into the game is to try to influence other entities in the game, you are in fact playing. Personally, I have no problem with AFK-cloaking.
If you playing against others going afk is disturbing enemy activity (more or less) and there's no counter for that - and thats lame. But true is that CCP will do nothing with that because they focused on DUST stuff, look at old problems with POS for instance, or newest ones which appear (mostly) after Dominion - lag wich didnt appear in Apocrypha but are always in Dominion (in simillar fleet's fighting). The only the CCP is care is x-box and playStation players - eve ones? They used to play this game for years - it's not worth to care about ppl who are complaining but paying month by month ;p Or even double-logowsky? does CCP do something with that? Or typical trick (not a cheat - because it's accepted by CCP and it's trick so far ;p) - when you jumping through the gate, (enemy fleet is jumping after you) - you aligning to some celestial - w8 for "warp" message and push ctrl+q? Your ship will be staying near the gate, enemy could target it, shot to it - but it will dissapear after few sec (it's checked couple a times - and russian ppl are using it as much as they can because it's not a cheat according to official answer we got - and they using it with logistic because it's primary) - enemy are loosing their primary - think that enemy was died but... he is appear 1mln km from gate and he can go back into fight ;p All POS, LAG, Tricks issues are known but the most important is to care about dust - and to give some crap from time to time to eve ppl just to show some activity ;p Why they should do something with cloak'ed ****ers? they have no interest with that ;p
:( -> true :(
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Daenosa
Pineal Squeegee
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Posted - 2010.04.27 08:33:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Torothanax
So you would be quite happy to probe out a cloaker and land 10km away from? I hope you see how pointless that would be? You would have to spend all day, warping to the cloaker and travelling different routes. If you want to spend that much time finding just 1 cloaker then you need a new hobby
But yeah i actually wouldn't be against that if you landed close but not to close enough to decloak a ship. As the who was cloaked would only have to warp to another safespot.
I dont think many people would be bothered to spend time hunting for a cloaked ship on the off chance that they are there and pointing and laughing at your attempts to find them But still if it keeps you happy then it must be worth it
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Bawidamek
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Posted - 2010.04.27 08:39:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Daenosa
Originally by: Torothanax
So you would be quite happy to probe out a cloaker and land 10km away from? I hope you see how pointless that would be? You would have to spend all day, warping to the cloaker and travelling different routes. If you want to spend that much time finding just 1 cloaker then you need a new hobby
But yeah i actually wouldn't be against that if you landed close but not to close enough to decloak a ship. As the who was cloaked would only have to warp to another safespot.
I dont think many people would be bothered to spend time hunting for a cloaked ship on the off chance that they are there and pointing and laughing at your attempts to find them But still if it keeps you happy then it must be worth it
it wouldnt be a pointless - because if you are hunting some cloaked guy he always can set speed to max and you'll land 10km from him - but please note that if he's afk you can probe him after few min - and when you'll be able to warp on him you'll be sure that he's >150km from you. After warp - you will be aligned at the same direction he is - decloak - max speed, drones out - and you have your chance to decloak him. As you can see even with probes it wouldn't be easy but you got a chance to search and destroy - of course only if he is afk ;p and if he would be afk - he deserve for that :D
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.27 08:51:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Daenosa So you would be quite happy to probe out a cloaker and land 10km away from? I hope you see how pointless that would be? You would have to spend all day, warping to the cloaker and travelling different routes. If you want to spend that much time finding just 1 cloaker then you need a new hobby
And this would be different from current non cloaking mechanics how? The only way you ever catch someone at a safe spot is if they are stupid, not paying attention, or afk. So yeah 10 km or so would be fine to me.
I said handicapped, not "blindly searching for a cloaked ship". But then you also don't want every ship out there tracking down cloakers, so I'd also sugest a special ship class of some type that had a bonus to allow it to fit a module for tracking down cloaked ships on grid. Say an area scanner that gives distance to target but no direction, and maybe ship type. Hot and cold anyone? Any number of other ideas would work too. Just as long as cloakers have at least somthing to worry about besides just looking for targets.
As I said, I've never been for making cloaks useless. I just want somthing that makes they not entirely invunerable. It's got to at least be viable though. Current mechanics and methods are not. (Oh and as far as I know, spamming cans to decloak people is an exploit.)
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:05:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Torothanax Bypassing game mechanics is against the rules.
There is no bypassing of game rules, otherwise it would be an exploit and a bannable offence, which is clearly not.
There is no real counter for local, so there is no real counter to cloak, which mitigates the presence of local, so stop whining and get over it.
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Kidzior
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:07:00 -
[385]
Originally by: Giakom
Originally by: Jack Icegaard I bet there are thousands that are logged in but not actively playing, or afk-traveling/running missions. Local has never been able to differentiate between those actively playing and those browsing the interweb, making dinner or going on a hike, all while being logged into the game.
Other MMOGs disconnects players that goes inactive (no client input in certain time-frame). That would be the easy fix for AFK-cloaking. One could argue that as long as the reason for staying logged into the game is to try to influence other entities in the game, you are in fact playing. Personally, I have no problem with AFK-cloaking.
If you playing against others going afk is disturbing enemy activity (more or less) and there's no counter for that - and thats lame. But true is that CCP will do nothing with that because they focused on DUST stuff, look at old problems with POS for instance, or newest ones which appear (mostly) after Dominion - lag wich didnt appear in Apocrypha but are always in Dominion (in simillar fleet's fighting). The only the CCP is care is x-box and playStation players - eve ones? They used to play this game for years - it's not worth to care about ppl who are complaining but paying month by month ;p Or even double-logowsky? does CCP do something with that? Or typical trick (not a cheat - because it's accepted by CCP and it's trick so far ;p) - when you jumping through the gate, (enemy fleet is jumping after you) - you aligning to some celestial - w8 for "warp" message and push ctrl+q? Your ship will be staying near the gate, enemy could target it, shot to it - but it will dissapear after few sec (it's checked couple a times - and russian ppl are using it as much as they can because it's not a cheat according to official answer we got - and they using it with logistic because it's primary) - enemy are loosing their primary - think that enemy was died but... he is appear 1mln km from gate and he can go back into fight ;p All POS, LAG, Tricks issues are known but the most important is to care about dust - and to give some crap from time to time to eve ppl just to show some activity ;p Why they should do something with cloak'ed ****ers? they have no interest with that ;p
new trick?
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:18:00 -
[386]
Edited by: Torothanax on 27/04/2010 09:23:56
Originally by: Mark Hadden There is no bypassing of game rules, otherwise it would be an exploit and a bannable offence, which is clearly not.
There is no real counter for local, so there is no real counter to cloak, which mitigates the presence of local, so stop whining and get over it.
Why do you post? Your logic is down right painful to read. Simply atrocoius.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:46:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Helixios Your mistake was assuming these guys are smart... Or that they knew how to hold a logic based argument...
Atleast smarter than your corp mates. undocking a vindicator without backup to get ratting with hostiles in local!
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:50:00 -
[388]
Originally by: Giakom Or even double-logowsky? does CCP do something with that?
Fixed in tyrannis.
Quote: Or typical trick (not a cheat - because it's accepted by CCP and it's trick so far ;p) - when you jumping through the gate, (enemy fleet is jumping after you) - you aligning to some celestial - w8 for "warp" message and push ctrl+q?
Also fixed. you will return to the same grid when logging back in. so all they need to do is wait.
but yeah it is always nice to base your arguments an outdated/false informations.
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Laurew
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:55:00 -
[389]
*Yawns*
This whine thread still going?
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Kidzior
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Posted - 2010.04.27 09:57:00 -
[390]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Giakom Or even double-logowsky? does CCP do something with that?
Fixed in tyrannis.
Quote: Or typical trick (not a cheat - because it's accepted by CCP and it's trick so far ;p) - when you jumping through the gate, (enemy fleet is jumping after you) - you aligning to some celestial - w8 for "warp" message and push ctrl+q?
Also fixed. you will return to the same grid when logging back in. so all they need to do is wait.
but yeah it is always nice to base your arguments an outdated/false informations.
hmmm - it was worked in that way yesterday - than I dont think it's fixed but of course I'll check it just to be sure ;p
The other case it's that even if you return to the same grid - the enemies are losing their primary, then primary appear again - then primary is doing the same trick again - for me it's nice russian trick even if ship is forced to go back to the same grid - it's because for few sec (10 or less, im not sure) all dps is focuse on ship which dissapear and... then he is appear again ;p Is that fixed? NO WAY - nobody can say it was net-issue or ctrl-q ;p
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