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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.27 10:07:00 -
[391]
well as we still got dominion and not tyrannis, of course it still works on TQ. try it on sisi maybe.
for more see http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1286760
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Marcus Gillian
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Posted - 2010.04.27 10:32:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Abbot Laarkin
Originally by: AnarConn omg.. id say a insult but you prolly just enjoy it. anyways, back on topic. All i try to do is make eve life more intresting, but clearly you like sitting cloaked for hours and hours and hours and hours doing nothing. if your not mature enough to fight without your cloak then go troll another thread
Scenario 1: I'm in a cov ops frig. I have almost no offensive capability whatsoever. I'm sitting cloaked for hours on end (AT the keyboard) gathering Intel on you, your corp, your ships, what pos might be around, your active/ inactive times etc.
To do this I am sacrificing a considerable amount of game-time in order to gain an advantage over you. I have taken the time and made the effort to increase my in-game and out-of-game skills in order to do this as effectively as possible. This is in the nature of the game, the advantage goes to those willing to work for it. I am not an (immediate) threat to you, so I should not be a problem (yet). If you are too lazy/ careless or indeed "immature" to understand this and deal with it, then possibly you/ your corp/ your alliance are not ready for null-sec life.
Scenario 2:
I'm in a Bomber/ recon. The number of valid targets is limited by my ship choice. I am also required to make a decision whenever I do see a valid target as to whether or not it is bait. Setting up a trap for a solo bomber/ recon is actually rather easy. All you require is a little skill, determination and decent corp-mates. If you do not meet these requirements then possibly you/ your corp/ your alliance are not ready for null-sec life.
In conclusion:
If I am AFK I am no threat to you whatsoever. I can not harm you in any way, shape or form.
If I am AT the keyboard then I am only a limited threat at worst. With a little skill and determination on your part that threat can be mitigated almost completely, in fact one little slip-up on my part buys me a one-way ticket to my next clone.
If I am scouting for my Alliance (scenario 1) then you have a far bigger problem than one little cloaker.
Dealing with a cloaker in system is not impossible, it's not even that hard tbh. With just a minimal input of effort, and maybe a minor change in the day-to-day running of your corp activities, you can learn to handle the situation as a mature person might Rather than coming here to whine about something that any self respecting null-sec corp would consider a minor inconvenience.
This is not a troll, null-sec is not for everyone. If AFK cloakers really are that much of an issue to you then you have a nasty shock in store when something truly dangerous happens to you.
Peace.
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Marcus Gillian
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Posted - 2010.04.27 10:38:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Abbot Laarkin
Originally by: AnarConn omg.. id say a insult but you prolly just enjoy it. anyways, back on topic. All i try to do is make eve life more intresting, but clearly you like sitting cloaked for hours and hours and hours and hours doing nothing. if your not mature enough to fight without your cloak then go troll another thread
Scenario 1: I'm in a cov ops frig. I have almost no offensive capability whatsoever. I'm sitting cloaked for hours on end (AT the keyboard) gathering Intel on you, your corp, your ships, what pos might be around, your active/ inactive times etc.
To do this I am sacrificing a considerable amount of game-time in order to gain an advantage over you. I have taken the time and made the effort to increase my in-game and out-of-game skills in order to do this as effectively as possible. This is in the nature of the game, the advantage goes to those willing to work for it. I am not an (immediate) threat to you, so I should not be a problem (yet). If you are too lazy/ careless or indeed "immature" to understand this and deal with it, then possibly you/ your corp/ your alliance are not ready for null-sec life.
Scenario 2:
I'm in a Bomber/ recon. The number of valid targets is limited by my ship choice. I am also required to make a decision whenever I do see a valid target as to whether or not it is bait. Setting up a trap for a solo bomber/ recon is actually rather easy. All you require is a little skill, determination and decent corp-mates. If you do not meet these requirements then possibly you/ your corp/ your alliance are not ready for null-sec life.
In conclusion:
If I am AFK I am no threat to you whatsoever. I can not harm you in any way, shape or form.
If I am AT the keyboard then I am only a limited threat at worst. With a little skill and determination on your part that threat can be mitigated almost completely, in fact one little slip-up on my part buys me a one-way ticket to my next clone.
If I am scouting for my Alliance (scenario 1) then you have a far bigger problem than one little cloaker.
Dealing with a cloaker in system is not impossible, it's not even that hard tbh. With just a minimal input of effort, and maybe a minor change in the day-to-day running of your corp activities, you can learn to handle the situation as a mature person might Rather than coming here to whine about something that any self respecting null-sec corp would consider a minor inconvenience.
This is not a troll, null-sec is not for everyone. If AFK cloakers really are that much of an issue to you then you have a nasty shock in store when something truly dangerous happens to you.
Peace.
Wonderfully and eloquently put. In truth there is no balance in the world (or EVE) at all but the constant ebb and flow from one extreme to another. This particular world is NOT static and probably will never be. As was said in the previous post, you have a lot more to worry about than one lone cloaked ship.................
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Kidzior
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Posted - 2010.04.27 11:48:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Kidzior on 27/04/2010 11:49:16
Originally by: darius mclever well as we still got dominion and not tyrannis, of course it still works on TQ. try it on sisi maybe.
for more see http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1286760
hmmm - ok. Sry than man - I didnt see that in official patch-note - there are only some crap about long-range bookmarks removing and things like that.
Btw - the most funny is that they removed long-range bookmarks just to cut number of bookmars done by players - but everybody who are living in null have at last 3 bookmarks (and some ss'es) near each gate in each system they live/gank/roam - they have to have them just to check if the gate is clear of bubbles ;p
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.27 13:33:00 -
[395]
Edited by: Torothanax on 27/04/2010 13:33:37
Originally by: Marcus Gillian Wonderfully and eloquently put. In truth there is no balance in the world (or EVE) at all but the constant ebb and flow from one extreme to another. This particular world is NOT static and probably will never be. As was said in the previous post, you have a lot more to worry about than one lone cloaked ship.................
And you had to double post that for some reason? You're right, the game isn't static, it's been improving slowly but constantly. They have been systematically fixing every overpowered, onesided, or unconterable mechanic in game over the years. The nerf bat cometh. It's just a matter of when.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.27 14:00:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Torothanax They have been systematically fixing every overpowered, onesided, or unconterable mechanic in game over the years. The nerf bat cometh. It's just a matter of when.
I feel your anger and enjoy it :-) Cloaks are fine.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.27 23:46:00 -
[397]
LOL so you've completely given up on even trying to sound intellegent, logical, or even rational. I complement CCP on doing a good job improving Eve over the years and you pretend to go all hardcore, "I enjoy your tears, blah blah blah..." Um what? Just stop, it's embarrasing to watch. You aren't even trying to diguise your trolling now.
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Hannibal Ord
Minmatar Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2010.04.27 23:57:00 -
[398]
I have a solution.
When you cloak, make it cycle and use cap like any normal module. Not a lot, but enough.
When you cloak, stop cap recharging. Maybe even make it use a chunk of cap as well when you activate it.
So you cloak, you no longer cap recharge, your cloak uses up cap in the capacitor - when it runs out the cloak switches off and the ship will have to sit in space for a bit and recharge, then it can cloak again.
Oh and remove local.
This could possibly not apply to recon ships and covert ops/blackops.
This means someone has to be there when the ship decloaks and let the cap recharge and then cloak again.
I don't agree with being able to probe them out. The whole point of the cloak is being sneaky sneaky.
Only other solution is make a new destroyer class that can possibly detect them ON grid only and is the only ship capable of doing so.
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Cinori Aluben
Minmatar Gladiators of Rage Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.04.28 00:09:00 -
[399]
I live in 0.0 atm, love cloaking, and use CovOps/Recon all the time; to travel, to scout, to spy... Cloaking is a fun way of playing the game. New T3 covops/interdiction nullifier fits are pretty sweet too for the things they allow you to. I've never been killed by a system cloaker, and we have groups in system that have each others' backs if an SB or cloaker decides to play around.
However, the 23hr straight cloak (without ever uncloaking)(afk or not) in system is pretty ridiculous. And I can assure you from speaking with loads of serious long-time 0.0 players PvP & carebear who know what they're doing, it annoys a significant base of 0.0'rs, even though they're not worried about losses from it. (& btw most 0.0 players care less about the forums)
It's not cloaking that's the problem, as I said before. It's cloaking for hours and hours continuously without ever decloaking, afk or not.
We've brainstormed some interesting ideas regarding this, ideas that would not change the way cloaking is used 95% of the time, but would potentially address this. At the least, bringing the topic up to CCP is never a bad idea.
For those of you interested, I encourage you to review my campaign for CSM this term, as this is one of the plethora "Little Things First" I'm putting out. For those uninterested, don't worry about.
Cinori Aluben CS5 2010Fix the Little Things First! ------- Cinori Aluben -- CSM 2010!! "Fix the Little Things First!" --- www.littlethingsfirst.com |
ULTImatio
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Posted - 2010.04.28 07:57:00 -
[400]
Yup, Cloaking it self is not the issue but the time they do it.
IDEA: Ad some sort of fuel for cloaking modules.
When the cloaking modules are changed to modules that use something then the time they can cloak up is based on there ships statistics, bonuses and the size of the cargo bay.
By this concept cloakers can only cloak for like a few hours and then need to go to some place to refuel.
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N0N
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Posted - 2010.04.28 08:17:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Cinori Aluben And I can assure you from speaking with loads of serious long-time 0.0 players PvP & carebear who know what they're doing, it annoys a significant base of 0.0'rs, even though they're not worried about losses from it. (& btw most 0.0 players care less about the forums) I've heard many call it a "Plague on 0.0."
So you want to nerf cloaking, because some are annoyed? Isn't that why they do it? Sounds like it's working as intended.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.28 09:54:00 -
[402]
Originally by: N0N So you want to nerf cloaking, because some are annoyed? Isn't that why they do it? Sounds like it's working as intended.
So they do it to harrass and annoy? Hm. Sounds like griefing to me. I guess CCP should fix that.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.28 09:54:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Torothanax LOL so you've completely given up on even trying to sound intellegent, logical, or even rational. I complement CCP on doing a good job improving Eve over the years and you pretend to go all hardcore, "I enjoy your tears, blah blah blah..." Um what? Just stop, it's embarrasing to watch. You aren't even trying to diguise your trolling now.
yes, because you and this thread begins annoying me
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Daenosa
Pineal Squeegee
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Posted - 2010.04.28 09:55:00 -
[404]
Edited by: Daenosa on 28/04/2010 09:56:15
Originally by: Cinori Aluben Edited by: Cinori Aluben on 28/04/2010 02:15:48 Edited by: Cinori Aluben on 28/04/2010 00:29:38 I live in 0.0 atm, love cloaking, and use CovOps/Recon all the time; to travel, to scout, to spy... Cloaking is a fun way of playing the game, and adds an excellent dynamic. . New T3 covops/interdiction nullifier fits are pretty sweet too for the things they allow you to. I've never been killed by a system cloaker, and we have groups in system that have each others' backs if an SB or cloaker decides to play around.
However, the 23hr straight cloak (without ever uncloaking)(afk or not) in system is pretty ridiculous. And I can assure you from speaking with loads of serious long-time 0.0 players PvP & carebear who know what they're doing, it annoys a significant base of 0.0'rs, even though they're not worried about losses from it. (& btw most 0.0 players care less about the forums) I've heard many call it a "Plague on 0.0."
It's not cloaking that's the problem, as I said before. It's cloaking for hours and hours continuously without ever decloaking, afk or not.
We've brainstormed some interesting ideas regarding this, ideas that would not change the way cloaking is used 95% of the time, but would potentially address this. At the least, bringing the topic up to CCP is never a bad idea.
For those of you interested, I encourage you to review my campaign for CSM this term, as this is one of the plethora "Little Things First" I'm putting out. For those uninterested, don't worry about.
Cinori Aluben CSM5 2010Fix the Little Things First!
EDITs 1&2: grammar
I hear what your saying but if they are not concerned about losing ships then what are they concerned about? a 23hr cloaker is obviously afk and is as harmful as a roid
Anyway out interest how long would it be ok to cloak for?
@Torothanax, half of eve is about harassing and annoying. You really wanna take all that away?
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Laurew
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Posted - 2010.04.28 11:18:00 -
[405]
Originally by: ULTImatio Yup, Cloaking it self is not the issue but the time they do it.
IDEA: Ad some sort of fuel for cloaking modules.
When the cloaking modules are changed to modules that use something then the time they can cloak up is based on there ships statistics, bonuses and the size of the cargo bay.
By this concept cloakers can only cloak for like a few hours and then need to go to some place to refuel.
terrible idea.
cloaking is fine for cov ops, nerf it for non covert ships aka cloaking macro ravens.
geez enough already
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Pax Ratlin
Gallente Serenity Ascension On the Rocks
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Posted - 2010.04.28 11:43:00 -
[406]
Originally by: ULTImatio IDEA: Ad some sort of fuel for cloaking modules.
Bad idea, cloakers (at the keyboard) are fine we don't need to limit their cloaks, we need to limit the cloaks of AFK cloakers.
So again my idea is, every cycle of a cloak produces 'toxic fumes' in the cargohold once the cargohold is full the ship decloaks.
Therefore periodically the cloaker has to uncloak, jetcan the fumes and move to a new safe spot to cloak up again. The afk cloaker who's not at the keyboard to do this can be scanned down and killed.
Originally by: Daenosa I hear what your saying but if they are not concerned about losing ships then what are they concerned about? a 23hr cloaker is obviously afk and is as harmful as a roid.
I love how you keep saying this even though it has been show to be otherwise again and again.
I'd like to say that eventually you'll take your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting lalalalalalalala and reaslise if there was not advantage to being an AFK cloaker they would just log off and not sit cloaked 23/7, but i honestly don't think you ever will. Keep the faith baby, keep the faith LOL.
One or two of them might have RL issues that needs them to go AFK for 6 or more hours .... but all of em????
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.28 11:58:00 -
[407]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 28/04/2010 12:00:13
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
I'd like to say that eventually you'll take your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting lalalalalalalala and reaslise if there was not advantage to being an AFK cloaker they would just log off and not sit cloaked 23/7, but i honestly don't think you ever will. Keep the faith baby, keep the faith LOL.
One or two of them might have RL issues that needs them to go AFK for 6 or more hours .... but all of em????
local would show your enemy you're active by log off/log on, to prevent this, afk cloaking is required. Removing the logon/logoff events takes the enemy the possibility of detection your activity.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.04.28 12:49:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Mark Hadden Edited by: Mark Hadden on 28/04/2010 12:00:13
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
I'd like to say that eventually you'll take your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting lalalalalalalala and reaslise if there was not advantage to being an AFK cloaker they would just log off and not sit cloaked 23/7, but i honestly don't think you ever will. Keep the faith baby, keep the faith LOL.
One or two of them might have RL issues that needs them to go AFK for 6 or more hours .... but all of em????
local would show your enemy you're active by log off/log on, to prevent this, afk cloaking is required. Removing the logon/logoff events takes the enemy the possibility of detection your activity.
This is exactly right. Logging off reveals your ship during the safety warp. This gives intel (ship type), and exposes the possibility of being probed during the minute before the ship vanishes. Worse, the exact same intel reveal and risk occur when logging back in.
The fact is it's Local that's the problem, not the cloak. If local didn't reveal that someone was in system, people wouldn't be looking for them, and they could log off with little concern.
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Pax Ratlin
Gallente Serenity Ascension On the Rocks
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Posted - 2010.04.28 12:54:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Mark Hadden Edited by: Mark Hadden on 28/04/2010 12:00:13
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
I'd like to say that eventually you'll take your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting lalalalalalalala and reaslise if there was not advantage to being an AFK cloaker they would just log off and not sit cloaked 23/7, but i honestly don't think you ever will. Keep the faith baby, keep the faith LOL.
One or two of them might have RL issues that needs them to go AFK for 6 or more hours .... but all of em????
local would show your enemy you're active by log off/log on, to prevent this, afk cloaking is required. Removing the logon/logoff events takes the enemy the possibility of detection your activity.
Thank you for proving my point exactly, unless there was an advantage to sitting in a system afk for long periods of time then there wouldn't be a problem with showing if your active or not ... i.e. loggin off.
AFK cloaking and datacore collection are the only 2 things i can honestly think of where your rewarded for not playing the game, and both of them should be dealt with.
AFK cloaking is not required, all the benefits of being afk cloaked can be achieved by being at the keyboard like everyone else in EVE.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.28 13:16:00 -
[410]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 28/04/2010 13:21:50
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
AFK cloaking and datacore collection are the only 2 things i can honestly think of where your rewarded for not playing the game, and both of them should be dealt with.
AFK cloaking is not required, all the benefits of being afk cloaked can be achieved by being at the keyboard like everyone else in EVE.
not quite. There are plenties of activities which are done afk - its actually the fundamental of eve online, which was designed for not activily farming XP but skilling afk instead, only to mention the basical one, everybody seems to ignore for some reason. Furthermore, you earn ISK afk, you gather info afk and so you avoid getting f*cked by local afk, its all fine.
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Marli Khan
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Posted - 2010.04.28 14:58:00 -
[411]
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
Originally by: Mark Hadden Edited by: Mark Hadden on 28/04/2010 12:00:13
Originally by: Pax Ratlin
I'd like to say that eventually you'll take your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting lalalalalalalala and reaslise if there was not advantage to being an AFK cloaker they would just log off and not sit cloaked 23/7, but i honestly don't think you ever will. Keep the faith baby, keep the faith LOL.
One or two of them might have RL issues that needs them to go AFK for 6 or more hours .... but all of em????
local would show your enemy you're active by log off/log on, to prevent this, afk cloaking is required. Removing the logon/logoff events takes the enemy the possibility of detection your activity.
Thank you for proving my point exactly, unless there was an advantage to sitting in a system afk for long periods of time then there wouldn't be a problem with showing if your active or not ... i.e. loggin off.
AFK cloaking and datacore collection are the only 2 things i can honestly think of where your rewarded for not playing the game, and both of them should be dealt with.
AFK cloaking is not required, all the benefits of being afk cloaked can be achieved by being at the keyboard like everyone else in EVE.
What benefit does an AFK cloaker get that he would not enjoy were he at the keyboard?
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.28 20:10:00 -
[412]
Originally by: Marli Khan What benefit does an AFK cloaker get that he would not enjoy were he at the keyboard?
Until you are able to grasp the strategic situation that each player is faced with, or until you are willing to admit it you will never understand the advantage that it confers. Unless you are beyond foolish or are being willfully blind to this point there is almost no way that you could have not grasped this.
Being in local is a credible threat and the ability to make them while not at risk is one of the strongest abilities in the game. This threat does not go away when local is gone, rather it exists without anyone's presence, so that is clearly not a solution. Rather, the solution is the ability to go after the target the same way everyone else goes after any other target. Via probing. This does not create any undue burden on players who have ships that have bonuses to cloaking, they will be long gone by the time a prober lands unless they're actively engaged. --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.28 21:12:00 -
[413]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 28/04/2010 21:13:33
Originally by: Goumindong Rather, the solution is the ability to go after the target the same way everyone else goes after any other target. Via probing.
you cant hunt all targets. Specifically, you can not do this when: 1) target is in a POS bubble 2) target is docked 3) target is cloaked
These are cases, where you cant and should not be able to hunt them.
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Kidzior
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Posted - 2010.04.28 22:17:00 -
[414]
Edited by: Kidzior on 28/04/2010 22:19:28
Originally by: Mark Hadden Edited by: Mark Hadden on 28/04/2010 21:13:33
Originally by: Goumindong Rather, the solution is the ability to go after the target the same way everyone else goes after any other target. Via probing.
you cant hunt all targets. Specifically, you can not do this when: 1) target is in a POS bubble 2) target is docked 3) target is cloaked
These are cases, where you cant and should not be able to hunt them.
1 you can take down his POS 2 he cannot attack you - you know where he is and you can w8 for him or no 3 you can do NOTHING ;p - you dont know where he is, he can attack you whenever he wish to, he can fit covert-cyno ;p, he can capture you (SB) and w8 few sec when rats would kill you ;p
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.28 22:22:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Kidzior
1 you can take down his POS
dummy argument
Originally by: Kidzior
2 he cannot attack you - you know where he is and you can w8 for him or no
if one is cloaked he cannot attack you too and you know where he is. Cloaked. As the cloaker decloaks or a docked guy undocks, they both can engage you.
Originally by: Kidzior
3 you can do NOTHING ;p
exactly as if one is docked or in a POS
but you derailed my reply, which was related to when a target can be hunted and when not.
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.28 23:56:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Mark Hadden dummy argument
What do you mean "dummy argument". Grow some balls and attack the POS. Hell you might get a fight out of it. Quote:
if one is cloaked he cannot attack you too and you know where he is
Please message me this magical module and method to to this. Quote: but you derailed my reply, which was related to when a target can be hunted and when not.
You can't hunt people who are cloaked. you can hunt people who are everywhere else. If its sov, you can even take their station. --
Did you get that thing i sent you? |
Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.29 00:02:00 -
[417]
you should bring some more than dummies.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.04.29 00:03:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Mark Hadden dummy argument
What do you mean "dummy argument". Grow some balls and attack the POS. Hell you might get a fight out of it. Quote:
if one is cloaked he cannot attack you too and you know where he is
Please message me this magical module and method to to this. Quote: but you derailed my reply, which was related to when a target can be hunted and when not.
You can't hunt people who are cloaked. you can hunt people who are everywhere else. If its sov, you can even take their station.
It amazes me that the anti-cloakers are willing to suggest going through the logistics and effort to siege a POS and/or take a sov station, both of which require lots of teamwork, time, and coordination - but the substantially smaller effort required to out-think / bait / ambush / out-wait a cloaked ship is unacceptable.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.29 00:11:00 -
[419]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 29/04/2010 00:14:49
those are only dummies.
They would never siege/remove a pos or capture a station for getting a person, because it requires insane amount of resources and doesnt even achieve the goal, POS guy would simply go away and the station dude would still stay docked as long as he likes to.
But, if you ask me, they shall make cloakers probeable, as long as it would require the same efforts than removing a POS or conquering a station. LOL
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Atrei Capital
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Posted - 2010.04.29 00:29:00 -
[420]
Bad ideas get implemented because of this.
Post a good idea, thread ends in five posts.
Troll the entire forum, and you get a 15 page rage argument.
I can't tell if the anticloakers are trolls or if they really are that clueless. I'm going with trolls to preserve my faith in humanity.
"Everything should have a counter. But when people counter me, they need a nerf."
Rewarding impatience and blobs would be the death of EVE. Blobs have it easy enough already without nerfing the last tool available to small gangs.
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