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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.14 00:20:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: Grarr Dexx What effort is there in anchoring a module to disrupt it? Isn't the effort placing camps and guards throughout the region so the cloaker can't get to the important parts of space?
How do you stop a recon or a cov ops from running even a bubbled gate camp?
competent ceptor pilots.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.14 00:29:00 -
[62]
You sure like to hear yourself talk don't you? It's pretty clear you've never lived in null sec. Raided there maybe, but never claimed any space. I shouldn't even respond to you after that nonsence about not needing indutrial players.
How about you actually quote me correctly? Let me fix that for you. Originally by: Mark Hadden
Originally by: Torothanax I believe there is an old saying: He that guards everything protects nothing. If you spread your defences everywhere at once, you don't have enough force to properly defend anything. This is what afk cloaking forces. You have waste time and effort to defend any and all non combat ops going on in that system, or risk losses. A (maybe) completely inactive player forcing active responce.
yes. Then your space is too big if you cant protect it properly.
No, it's an economic issue, not a space issue. One miner or industrialist doesn't make enough to support 2 or 3 extra players full time. If every working in the US or where ever you are from needed one or two guards each it would put a HUGE dent in GNP.
Eve is most definately a multi player game, but most isk grinding is done solo. Ratting, missions, production, invention, trading, market specualtion, most exploration, mining. All done solo for the most part. Even if it's one person dual or triple boxing, it's still solo. Welcome to Eve.
It's not possible to guard everyone all the time. So you run combat gangs to patrol your space. Combat patrols can't do jack **** to a cloaker.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.14 00:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Torothanax How do you stop a recon or a cov ops from running even a bubbled gate camp?
competent ceptor pilots.
BS. Catching a recon or covert ops in a bubble is the exception, not the rule. I've seen it happen only a hand full of times, and I've been pvping for three and a half years. First up, you have to have a bubbled camp up. BTW gate camping sucks. Sucks long, sucks hard. Most people won't do it for more then an hour. Easy enough for a cloaker to wait out while he afk's for lunch, or plays with his market alt in high sec. Then you have to get very lucky. Granted the more people you have on a gate the easier it is, but there again, one person wasting the time of lots of people with little to no chance of success.
No bubble, no way. Unless they do something stupid, you will never, ever catch a CovOps/Recon on a gate.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.14 00:45:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Torothanax You sure like to hear yourself talk don't you? It's pretty clear you've never lived in null sec. Raided there maybe, but never claimed any space. I shouldn't even respond to you after that nonsence about not needing indutrial players.
you mean me? I actually live in 0.0. but thank you for asking.
Originally by: Torothanax Eve is most definately a multi player game, but most isk grinding is done solo. Ratting, missions, production, invention, trading, market specualtion, most exploration, mining. All done solo for the most part. Even if it's one person dual or triple boxing, it's still solo.
and here is where your failure comes in. you can rat faster together, you can run missions faster together. if you work as a group for production you are waaaay more efficient. (infact most people claiming that production is not profitable are hindering them self with "i want to do it solo") also exploration is way more fun when doing in a group.
Quote: It's not possible to guard everyone all the time. So you run combat gangs to patrol your space. Combat patrols can't do jack **** to a cloaker.
Well ... if you get rid of the thought of ratting/plexing solo ... then suddenly you are not an as juicy target anymore. good corps/alliances have policies that disallow solo ratting/plexing. bad alliances cry on the forums about cloakers.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.14 01:19:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Torothanax on 14/04/2010 01:22:18
Originally by: darius mclever you mean me? I actually live in 0.0. but thank you for asking.
Nope. I meant Mark Hadden. I thought that was pretty clear. Ego much? Originally by: darius mclever and here is where your failure comes in. you can rat faster together, you can run missions faster together. if you work as a group for production you are waaaay more efficient. (infact most people claiming that production is not profitable are hindering them self with "i want to do it solo") also exploration is way more fun when doing in a group.
Exploration is absolutely more fun and usually more profitable as a group. Espescially WH exploration. You'd all be in combat ships though and need no guards. Production and supply lines are way easier and possibly more profitable in a small group. Guards start cutting into profits, and no one likes baby sitting a freighter or industrial all day. Ratting? More interesting maybe, but not more profitable. You're splitting the loot. Could be just as profittable, but who want's to constantly schedule and work out groups, just for ratting? Mining you can definately make more IF everyone is mining. Add a couple scouts that aren't alts or some combat guards and it's not more profitable anymore. Again though, who wants to be bored on guard duty when they could be out making more ratting?
Alts never count as multi player. It's still one player. Two players running 3 accounts each isn't exactly multi player. Originally by: darius mclever Well ... if you get rid of the thought of ratting/plexing solo ... then suddenly you are not an as juicy target anymore. good corps/alliances have policies that disallow solo ratting/plexing. bad alliances cry on the forums about cloakers.
Funny. I spent quite a while in Atlas when they lived in the drone regions. Everyone I knew ratted solo, usually with a hauler alt. Course that was back when nano gangs were all the rage. Afk cloaking hadn't caught on yet. As far as I know, solo isk earning is still the norm.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.14 07:48:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 14/04/2010 07:53:13
Originally by: Torothanax No, it's an economic issue, not a space issue. One miner or industrialist doesn't make enough to support 2 or 3 extra players full time.
lol what are you actually whining about?? How hard the live of space claiming alliances is because of cloakers? The alliance money is done from moon minerals, if noone cares about your fat ratter or miner ass farming for your own wallet and you cant handle cloakers it's your own fault. Living in 0.0 means always living in a threat and learning to deal with it, you have no claim of absolute safety even in claimed space.
Originally by: Torothanax If every working in the US or where ever you are from needed one or two guards each it would put a HUGE dent in GNP.
RL analogies *sigh* they dont apply in eve.
Originally by: Torothanax
It's not possible to guard everyone all the time. So you run combat gangs to patrol your space. Combat patrols can't do jack **** to a cloaker.
no because they're coverts and recons. Its fine as it is, would be sad if coverts could not do their job because of upset miners and ratters feeling disturbed in their carebear activities.
Go to high sec if you cant deal with cloakers or just die.
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr GK inc. Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.04.14 10:27:00 -
[67]
I've caught plenty of bombers and recons with my sexy little sabre Can't help it that you're just a complete dimwit. ___
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.14 13:44:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 14/04/2010 13:45:11 you know, 0.0 carebears have mostly skilled for hulk, drake and raven; sometimes industrial for hauling loot, nothing what could be helpful for catching cloakers, nobody protect them, so the only they can do is opening whine threads about their poor situation and cloaky imbalance.
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Helixios
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Posted - 2010.04.14 23:26:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Helixios on 14/04/2010 23:28:20 I honestly hope these aren't the sort of people I expect to be fighting in the coming time. The arguments and ignorance here hardly give me reason to think this war will be interesting at all... Rather simply a nearly endless battle of internet ego to see who's more stubborn.
You're not impressing anyone by tossing out these carebear insults, so why don't you try using some of those dimly flickering brain cells to put up a viable argument, rather than proving how unbelievably dense you are.
-sigh-
The topic discussion is regarding cloaking. While to your seemingly primitive mind, it might read "come here to trash talk for the coming war", it really... doesn't. So either leave or give some valueable insight as to why cloaking doesn't need to be balanced other than "lulz, you suxorz, and i'm going to spam this topic because i don't leik yoo".
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.14 23:30:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Helixios I honestly hope these aren't the sort of people I expect to be fighting in the coming time. The arguments and ignorance here hardly give me reason to think this war will be interesting at all... Rather simply a nearly endless battle of internet ego to see who's more stubborn.
You're not impressing anyone by tossing out these carebear insults, so why don't you try using some of those dimly flickering brain cells to put up a viable argument, rather than proving how unbelievably dense you are.
-sigh-
The topic discussion is regarding cloaking. While to your seemingly primitive mind, it might read "come here to trash talk for the coming war", it really... doesn't. So either leave or give some valueable insight as to why cloaking isn't balanced other than "lulz, you suxorz, and i'm going to spam this topic because I don't leik yoo".
hehe the fight is coming to you, no? arent you living in NC space? i mean pure blind is fun for sure with all the SC next door. Looking at all the killboards it seems there are plenty fights.
See you in space^^
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.14 23:39:00 -
[71]
Originally by: darius mclever lol. many pvpers use afk cloaking to catch targets. especially in wormholes :) but hey it is always easier to attack people personally than to bring arguments. right?
This is impossible. AFK cloakers can't hurt anything.
Isn't this argument usually presented by the pro-cloaking crowd?
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.15 02:50:00 -
[72]
How about we get back on topic?
Cloaks have no counter. A cloaked ship is completely safe unless they choose to be otherwise. Nano was the same way. There should be no "I can't lose" mechanics in eve.
Cloaked ships can and do kill people.
An afk player, in space, should never be safe. AFK at your own risk, not with impunity.
(BTW eve is based on a fictional version of real life. You get too "out there", you lose your audience. Rule one of sci-fi. RL analogies do apply.)
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Naomi Wildfire
Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.04.15 02:56:00 -
[73]
Its not the cloak, the problem are the ships you can cloak. Only specced cloaker ships should be able to fit a cloak.
Like i said before, stealth bombers are overpowered due to the cov ops cloak.
It should look morel like
Covert Ops Cloak: T3s with Cov Ops mod Recons Covert Ops
T1 and T2 Cloak: Stealth Bombers Black Ops
thats it, no other cloakies.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.15 03:15:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Mark Hadden Originally by: Torothanax If every working in the US or where ever you are from needed one or two guards each it would put a HUGE dent in GNP.
RL analogies *sigh* they dont apply in eve.
It's not an analogy, it's basic math. If you have 3 average players being supported (payed) by one average player's work, they each make 1/3 of thier potential. Most activities in Eve will not reasonably support idle players. Originally by: Torothanax Its fine as it is, would be sad if coverts could not do their job because of upset miners and ratters feeling disturbed in their carebear activities.
No solution CCP would ever implement would prevent COs/Recons from doing thier job. Thier job however, is not perma-afk.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.04.15 03:51:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Misanthra on 15/04/2010 03:52:05
Originally by: Torothanax How about we get back on topic?
Cloaks have no counter. A cloaked ship is completely safe unless they choose to be otherwise. Nano was the same way. There should be no "I can't lose" mechanics in eve.
Cloaked ships can and do kill people.
An afk player, in space, should never be safe. AFK at your own risk, not with impunity.
(BTW eve is based on a fictional version of real life. You get too "out there", you lose your audience. Rule one of sci-fi. RL analogies do apply.)
There are several ways to catch cloakers, and they have been brought up in this and the other daily threads for this.
Its starts at the gate. Trust me, ceptors work. Been the ceptor pilot, been the guy found by ceptor pilot.
Take a dps hit on one ship in the crew. It is very possible to make a quick locker that can even catch an sb in that 1.236878949 seconds from the time they hit warp to spam cloak.
read your intel. Don't even need have to 2000 dictors bubble 100 systems for this. Cloaky is moving through your pipe, pick a system he may hit and wait. One dictor one gate and hope you catch your fish for the day. If he sits and waits in a system...broadcast in you intel channels. Player checks in, asks how the pipe is...tell them a cloaky in blah - blah system.
If past gate...bring friends. Eve an mmo, enjoy the company of fellow gamers. If an idiot solo ratter with anything other than blue in system...you earned your podding, and the butt chewing from your ceo and corp mates screwing with you. I am a nice guy, if ship spinning and a ratting bs needs an escort...tell em I am inbound. My corpmates, would do the same for me. If you can't get a friend or 2 to buddy up through a system with an AFK cloaky with you...that is a corp personnel issue not game mechanics.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.15 05:02:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Torothanax on 15/04/2010 05:05:45
Originally by: Misanthra There are several ways to catch cloakers, and they have been brought up in this and the other daily threads for this.
Its starts at the gate. Trust me, ceptors work. Been the ceptor pilot, been the guy found by ceptor pilot.
Take a dps hit on one ship in the crew. It is very possible to make a quick locker that can even catch an sb in that 1.236878949 seconds from the time they hit warp to spam cloak.
read your intel. Don't even need have to 2000 dictors bubble 100 systems for this. Cloaky is moving through your pipe, pick a system he may hit and wait. One dictor one gate and hope you catch your fish for the day. If he sits and waits in a system...broadcast in you intel channels. Player checks in, asks how the pipe is...tell them a cloaky in blah - blah system.
If past gate...bring friends. Eve an mmo, enjoy the company of fellow gamers. If an idiot solo ratter with anything other than blue in system...you earned your podding, and the butt chewing from your ceo and corp mates screwing with you. I am a nice guy, if ship spinning and a ratting bs needs an escort...tell em I am inbound. My corpmates, would do the same for me. If you can't get a friend or 2 to buddy up through a system with an AFK cloaky with you...that is a corp personnel issue not game mechanics.
I've caught cloakies myself by burning toward them. Not even close to reliable. I used to slip past gate camps ALL the time in null. Never lost a ship. I've yet to lose a CovOps in all the time I've been playing. I have lost recons, but only in combat, and very rarely. A smart pilot will have book marks to the sides of gates. Warp in, slow boat it to the gate. OR, sit 300-500 km off the gate and wait for the bubble to drop or the defenders to leave.
A cloaker is 100% safe, unless he chooses to be otherwise.
As for catching a cloaker as he decloaks from the gate. Must have been lag. There's no way it should ever happen. You can't even catch a shuttle comming off a gate. They are in warp before they drop cloak. Same with cloaked ships. The cloak activates before the gate cloak drops. Sure you "See" them in the overview, but you can't even begin to target them. You get the "not a vailid target" or "interference prevents you from locking" or whatever msg.
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.04.15 06:37:00 -
[77]
granted its not 100% effective...but better than nothing.
Sort of like decloak cans on outbound gates maybe mixed with drag bubble. Would be nice if they were 100% effective for campers...till you are cloaky that runs into them lol. Both methods require some skill...mostly luck imo.
Has to be a game for both parties. Or else be no point to having the covert ops cloaks. then people would just upgrade to T3 bubble nullified. Those are way more annoying than co/sb/recon. rather have buzzards, hounds and arazu's preferred enemy disruption vehicles personally. Got lucky and killed an afk T3 once....once. Don't know how many have slipped through gate cause all you can do is say...maybe we'll get lucky and doesn't have bubble nullifier....nope, he is gone :( .
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.15 08:21:00 -
[78]
I just want cloaks to not be 100% safe, espescially for someone who's afk.
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Yldrad
The Dandy KillerS
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Posted - 2010.04.15 08:22:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Yldrad on 15/04/2010 08:22:26 CCP already made this change in 2007. Proof:
Quote: Scan probes will now be able to detect cloaked ships. This update will be testable on Singularity when it next gets updated (probably on Tuesday since this is a holiday weekend here).
Unfortunately it's wasn't working as intended. It'll come in the "near future". Proof: Quote: Unfortunately it seems that the cloaking changes won't make it in for the next patch. The code changes have already been made, but got rolled back today because the system didn't work out as intended. However, we still plan to address cloaks in a patch in the near future (without nerfing covert ops of course).
We only have to wait...
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.15 09:30:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 15/04/2010 09:35:31
Quote: However, we still plan to address cloaks in a patch in the near future (without nerfing covert ops of course).
yesssss, make cloaky ravens probable. No ratter should be 100% safe due to cloaks.
Originally by: Torothanax I just want cloaks to not be 100% safe, espescially for someone who's afk.
why?? Docked or in a POS you're 100% safe also, so 100% safety cant be an issue as such.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.15 09:41:00 -
[81]
Oh yes, the problem which has been chewed on for a long time...
Make cloacks burn fuel - cov ops cloacks next to no fuel to stay afk for days even with a full cargo. Normal cloacks - loads of expensive fuel.
Balanced.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.15 10:41:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Mark Hadden yesssss, make cloaky ravens probable. No ratter should be 100% safe due to cloaks.
Originally by: Torothanax I just want cloaks to not be 100% safe, espescially for someone who's afk.
Hey look, we have the same idea. Originally by: Mark Hadden why?? Docked or in a POS you're 100% safe also, so 100% safety cant be an issue as such.
You sound alot like "I'm rock. Scissors is fine, nerf paper." The only place your are 100% safe is a station, as you should be. There have to be some completely safe places in Eve. POSs will keep you safe for a day and a half from a determined enemy.
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.15 11:12:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Mark Hadden on 15/04/2010 11:15:12
Originally by: Torothanax You sound alot like "I'm rock. Scissors is fine, nerf paper." The only place your are 100% safe is a station, as you should be.
tell me more about it why a dedicated covert ship should not be safe in space. Because of lacking counters? So there are no counters against being in a POS or station as well. This cant be a problem. Cosider cloaking as docking for coverts in a hostile space. It is completely fine. I could imagine nerfing cloaks for undedicated ships like battleships, carrier, titans or something but coverts and recons should be safe when cloaked.
Originally by: Torothanax
There have to be some completely safe places in Eve. POSs will keep you safe for a day and a half from a determined enemy.
POS = close to 100% safety in most cases. Probability of dying in a POS FF (only during a war) is the same as if somebody bumps into you accidentally on a SS and decloak you while afking.
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Haytrid
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Posted - 2010.04.15 12:13:00 -
[84]
First off, I'm a PvP'er and I would absolutely love the elimination of local as a tool for intel, people care-bearing in system should have to keep their own probes out to stay safe just like we have to use our probes to find them.
That being said.
Being cloaked and afk should also not be allowed to be a tool to subvert activities in a system. I do think it's ridiculous that this is the only game in the world without an inactivity timer that logs you out.
I would also love to see a cloak "decay" over time and able to begin to be picked up by probes, difficult at first then easier the more it decays.
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Laurew
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Posted - 2010.04.15 13:56:00 -
[85]
so lets say that ccp listen to all your carebear whines and nerfs cloaks. whats to then stop a person entering your system with a dramiel and perma MWD in the system for 12hrs while he/she is asleep? will have the same effect, you wont be able to probe it out.
then ccp will nerf the dram, so people will start using the next fastest ship.
point is, people will always find a way to disrupt your carebear activities in 0.0. cry all you like, if you cant handle one simple afk cloaker in your system then you should stay in empire.
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:30:00 -
[86]
Nerf docking!
A docked ship is 100% safe, and in Eve that just isn't right! I mean.. they could be AFK.. but they might NOT be. They could undock at any minute and attack someone!
It should like.. cost fuel to stay docked, or maybe there's some kinda undocking bomb we could use to blow them out of there!! Yeah!
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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:50:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Mark Hadden
tell me more about it why a dedicated covert ship should not be safe in space. Because of lacking counters? So there are no counters against being in a POS or station as well. This cant be a problem. Cosider cloaking as docking for coverts in a hostile space. It is completely fine. I could imagine nerfing cloaks for undedicated ships like battleships, carrier, titans or something but coverts and recons should be safe when cloaked.
Take the station, siege the POS.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.04.15 14:59:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Laurew so lets say that ccp listen to all your carebear whines and nerfs cloaks. whats to then stop a person entering your system with a dramiel and perma MWD in the system for 12hrs while he/she is asleep? will have the same effect, you wont be able to probe it out.
then ccp will nerf the dram, so people will start using the next fastest ship.
point is, people will always find a way to disrupt your carebear activities in 0.0. cry all you like, if you cant handle one simple afk cloaker in your system then you should stay in empire.
stiletto with 2 ECCM and a ladar backup array in the lows 8) have fun probing it ;)
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Mark Hadden
Amarr Intergalactic Serenity Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.04.15 15:42:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Goumindong
Take the station, siege the POS.
LMAO yeah
Requires almost the same efforts as protecting a carebear from a cloaker, right?
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.16 02:50:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Mark Hadden tell me more about it why a dedicated covert ship should not be safe in space. Because of lacking counters? So there are no counters against being in a POS or station as well. This cant be a problem. Cosider cloaking as docking for coverts in a hostile space. It is completely fine. I could imagine nerfing cloaks for undedicated ships like battleships, carrier, titans or something but coverts and recons should be safe when cloaked.
Because there never has been and never will be a completely infalable "stealth" anything. Recons are based on modern submarines. Difficult to detect. Very hard to pin down. Not impossible. Originally by: Mark Hadden POS = close to 100% safety in most cases. Probability of dying in a POS FF (only during a war) is the same as if somebody bumps into you accidentally on a SS and decloak you while afking.
A pos takes fuel and planning and time to set up. Think of it as a home court advantage for someone who has prepared before hand. At least you can remove it if you like. A cloaker gets complete immunity to everything any time and any place he likes. No work or preperation required.
Originally by: Laurew so lets say that ccp listen to all your carebear whines and nerfs cloaks. whats to then stop a person entering your system with a dramiel and perma MWD in the system for 12hrs while he/she is asleep? will have the same effect, you wont be able to probe it out.
then ccp will nerf the dram, so people will start using the next fastest ship.
point is, people will always find a way to disrupt your carebear activities in 0.0. cry all you like, if you cant handle one simple afk cloaker in your system then you should stay in empire.
At least you know the ship type and location. You can counter it or take apropriate steps to minimize risk. A single Dram, for instance, won't get the benifit of a speed boosing gang link. You can probe it down, get within 100-200km and then run it down. Even if you couldn't catch him, at least you can probe him at any time and verify that he's still just MWDing in a straight line and not setting up to gank someone. Same thing with a docked ship. It's a known threat.
A cloaked ship on the other hand is a complete unknown, unless he reveals himself.
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