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Mnement'h
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.14 07:10:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Pimpertron One of the biggest alliances in EVE crushes a few smaller entities and you come here chest beating? You should be hanging your heads in shame. Did you know there is a real war going on up north? while the other super powers are slugging it out your down in Providance playing the big fish in a small pond.
Your like a grown up on the school playground who is scared of going out and facing people in the big bad world.
It's called being thorough and keeping true to threats made. We said we wouldn't stop until CVA is out of providence ... we held our word and now we can have fun in regions where the enemy actually fights with more than hollow words. BTW at the start of the conflict the provi block had a few thousand pilots more than we had ... too bad they hadn't thought about what it takes to keep those pilots in ships before they took us on.
Big kudos to U'K ... they might not have the same firepower as -A- but they have the same determination and willpower to see Provi purged of CVA too proud for it's own good. In my book U'K was a very equal entity in this operation and all the folks dissing them could learn a thing or two from them. Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ... |
Mnement'h
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.14 19:35:00 -
[2]
All those crying about the loss of the only 'noob-friendly' region in EvE might want to think back and ask them selves why that same regions 'holders' decided to expand into the only space they knew was gonna bring them nothing but pain.
You can spin this any way you want but the bottom line is CVA and the Holders pulled the first punch and they lost that fight. A looser doesn't decide the terms of the peace offer that is made after the fight. They chose to sacrifice the entire region to uphold their 'zealot pride'. CVA / LFA hit first and -A- bloodied their nose in D-G and offered them to run while they still have legs to run on ... CVA decided to 'be proud and make a stand against the big bad bully (-B-) kid' by shoving all the other kids at him and his friends while they them selves ran as fast and as far away from the fight as they could, yelling "we'll be back when you get bored of our playground!". Some of the kids fought valiantly, some scattered, some got beaten to a pulp, and some screamed "don't hit us please we are not with them any more!".
When someone has a go at you, you make sure he never ever gets the opportunity to do so again. If you think otherwise you are not fit to be in the .0 playground in the first place. So suck it up and go with the flow.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ... |
Mnement'h
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.14 21:06:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Mnement'h
You can spin this any way you want but the bottom line is CVA and the Holders pulled the first punch
Unless you count -A-'s regular raids into Providence or their support of the CVA's oldest enemy.
Oh I guess all those Paxton, Sev3rance, CVA etc. fleets you could see in HED and GE- on almost a daily basis were just friendly sightseeing tours. The Provi vs. -A- skirmish has lasted for years, even before U'K was blue to -A- or had any stations in Catch.
Get of the high horse and smell the really bad excuse for a failed expansionist campaign that backfired and dragged the entire region into a conflict everyone knew was going to end this way.
People keep saying CVA had no choice ... noone would take them serious if they accepted the peace offer ... Who would take -A- serious if we let an invasion attempt just slide without repercussions ? One that was publicly announced with all the e-peen Aralis could muster into words.
Starting the SOV game was entirely CVA's fault and all the holders payed for it. It's that simple. And now Providence has new residents and they all know what happens if you play the SOV game in catch / providence.
Eve is a sandbox ... and sometimes the big kid will step on your castle and there is nothing you can do about it but complain how unfair it all is on Galnet ... but not everyone will agree with you ... especially the thousands of pilots who now have a new home in Providence. Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ... |
Mnement'h
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.14 22:00:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Xina Tutor
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Mnement'h
You can spin this any way you want but the bottom line is CVA and the Holders pulled the first punch
Unless you count -A-'s regular raids into Providence or their support of the CVA's oldest enemy.
Well neven more than that really. It was -A- who first attacked sovreignty. CVA never actually attacked sovreignty in any legally registered -A- system. All rather humorous really, all the chest beating and ego and false calls for peace.
And we know from a long history that -A- wanted to fight, nothing more.
Another lame attempt at spinning words rather than seriously acknowledging what happened ... If this was just an attempt to expand a little by LFA and gain a few systems for new Holders, then you might have a point. Unfortunately Aralis's page-long post about conquering -A- space just doesn't fit into the whole 'it wasn't an attack on -A- sov' excuse.
Go drop a few TCU's into non-sov systems in Delve and see what happens ... I'm sure IT (just an example but applicable to any large space-holding alliance) will understand that you are not really attacking their space, just merely expanding into non-claimed territory ...
as for -A- wanting to fight I quite distinctly remember being in 49-U fighting Goons with almost the entire alliance and friends there when LFA started dropping the TCU's ... funny way of fighting with our ships 25+ jumps from where LFA was at the time.
Goebels type propaganda where you repeat one thing over and over again until people start to believe it's actually true just doesn't work any more. Especially when you just lost the war.
As for the ant farm ... you say there are enclosures ... true ... the only -A- imposed rule for providence is "NO SOV WARFARE" ... how is this different from what CVA used to have ? You had a unified blue list ... which means you can only attack whoever CVA decides can be attacked ... which means no sov warfare unless CVA allowed it ... unlike CVA tho we do not impose the inner relations of the inhabitants of Providence. They can blue / neut / red whoever they want. They can individually implement NBSI, NRDS or whatever other ROE they want to. They can be slavers or they can be freedom-fighters (see developments in SF vs. Daisho conflict). They can support noob corps that want to come to .0 or they can shoot them at will ... the point is as long as they don't go SOV they can do whatever the frack they want to ... they pay rent to noone, they have no blue list restrictions, they have no anti-piracy laws, they can set access to their station they way they want to and they can fight over resources in any way they see fit.
Yes the new sandbox might be contained from expanding but it sure as hell isn't as restricted as it used to be.
Oh and remember ... they were INVITED to providence ... not forced or planted ... why would anyone in their right mind come to Providence if it wasn't a place where they can prosper ? Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ... |
Mnement'h
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.14 22:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Xina Tutor
For some reason -A- seems to need to feel that they were defending their space to make them feel better. It's all very strange.
It is also odd how there was no reaction to other moves into catch earlier. 2J was settled much earlier and there was no reaction. There were always holder alliances claiming various unclaimed systems in catch.
And odd how -A- could ever feel threatened but such a relatively small group of alliances. There does seem to be some issues of insecurity here, and we can only guess that the great empire is not as stable within as it may appear on the surface.
Oh, and the comparisons to CVA. I will grant some simularities, however the sovreignty was self imposed and negotiated internally within the alliances rather from without as is now the case. As far as New Providence is concerned they are walls imposed by an outside force. If you look at the greater region as say, the '-A- block' then is is perhaps more similar, although I doubt the ants have much say in the matter.
And that said. -A- now claim to be the same as CVA. How interesting.
'When facts fail do an ad hominem' ... that approach works on CAOD but if you want to have a proper discussion without basing your arguments on the presupposed needs and feels of the adversary then it's just not a debate any more but use of logical fallacies to justify what has been proven to be wrong.
The systems LFA attacked were, unlike some other systems previously claimed, in spitting distance of HED ... and unlike Providence that has 3 entry points from empire -A- space only has one ... letting a hostile entity expand to within walking distance of your most valuable strategic asset is lunacy at the least ...
You say -A- is threatened by a small group of alliances ... at the moment the conflict started, the Provi bloc counted just over 6300 pilots ... that is hardly a 'small group of alliances'. Point of fact is the Provibloc used to be the 6th largest entity in the EvE universe ... just below -A- and friends who take no.5 ...
Comparing -A- to CVA is absurd since -A- has no direct influence over what goes on inside providence beyond projecting the force to keep it in the same SOV structure it is now. CVA on the other hand regulated station access, docking fees, standings lists, intel channels, jumpbridge network access, moon mining rights to just name a few ... If you look at the broader picture -A- and it's known projected power has had the same unwritten arrangement with providence even before the conflict, just on a inter-regional rather than intra-regional scale. Everyone knew that if you expand towards -A- space you will be dealing with repercussions you are not able to handle unless you are a powerbloc. That is exactly what the New Providence inhabitants know now too. -A- didn't meddle into affairs inside provi and neither does it now, but the threat is as real now (just more demonstrable by the recent events) as it was in the CVA days.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ... |
Mnement'h
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.15 00:00:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Xina Tutor
stuff ...
I was referring to this line when I spoke of your comparison of -A- and CVA:
Quote: And that said. -A- now claim to be the same as CVA. How interesting.
you say we claim to be the same and I claim we are nothing of the sort ... which is why I brought up all the comparisons ...
When summarizing everything you said in your previous posts I come to the conclusion that you believe -A- overreacted ? Am I reading this correct?
What do you believe would have been the proper response to the incursion into catch so close to our most valuable system ? Should we have stopped after D-G and pretend nothing happened and stay confident that as soon as we went (for instance north or to goon owned delve) that Aralis wouldn't make good on his promise to never stop until we are removed from holy land ? Maybe we should have waited until we were fully engaged in Delve against the then still existing Goons to find out there were SBU's onlining in HED ?
Whether or not Provibloc was ever a threat to -A- sov is now painfully obvious, but that doesn't change the fact that no sane strategist or leader would ever expose his homeland and his base of power to a known enemy (who at that professes publicly the desire to annihilate said homeland) however small they are. -A- can field capitals in triple digits. How much of an annoyance do you think it is to fuel all those ships when you need to hop them battlefield to battlefield just because you 'had to save the best place in EvE for noobs' ? Excuse my bluntness but who decided it was up to -A- to be the guardian of nooblet-world ? Wasn't it CVA's idea ? Didn't they claim to be the Lord Holders of Providence ? In what possible way is the destruction of that system upon -A- to prevent or not bring about?
Bottom line is a conflict was initiated and as much as you would like to believe that we were bloodthirsty and wanted the fight so badly I can assure you that 30 days of grinding stations isn't seen as a fun pastime in -A-. We were quite happy slugging it out with the Goons before we got pulled back home.
You poked us knowing full well the amount of firepower we would bring and whether anyone likes it or not we brought it all to make a point. Which is exactly what this whole thread is about. Making a point. Not chest-beating or e-peen wielding, making a point. To Aralis. A point that his idea of a tired -A- not willing to do the grind was wrong just as his idea of expanding into -A- space was at the beginning of this mess.
Also on the station access thing, you say it is amusing that I mention station access restrictions ... I find that you are missing the point ... in old provi it was CVA who dictated access to most (if not all the stations) in providence by enforcing a region wide blue/red list. In new providence the station owners are the ones who decide who docks and who not. I see that as a step up in freedom not a step back. We might have decided who will live in provi for now but we are not deciding how they live.
If the new owners choose to run their own blue lists it's their prerogative but keep in mind we are talking about thousands of new pilots in providence ... not single people who own a station each and decide who docks and who doesn't. They all have friends who they can bring into providence to learn the life of .0 just like the old provi was. It might not be NRDS any more but it was never that safe a place to begin with.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ... |
Mnement'h
Amarr Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2010.04.15 01:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Xina Tutor ... This desire to keep Providence as it was is clear as they now rebuild this area in their own image. It is somehow familiar, yes so far shows the obvious signs of manufacture rather than the true dynamics on real space. In time I am sure that will change, but one is left to wonder if the resistriction imposed by -A- are not even more oppressive than the restrictions they claim CVA made upon it's holders. Restrictions I may note we rarely felt were such as an alliance.
And we all know some things happened that were beyond the control of -A- and they lost alliances from the area that they likely would have preferred remain in some form or other. Well fear not in that case as that was very unlikely in the long term.
Now a quiet peace rests upon the region and all is well. Again, good work. The goal has been achieved.
Best I can do is give you a perspective from the other side.
At the time before the conflict Fountain was falling and Delve was starting to heat up. It looked like a very long fight ahead. An assault on the homeland by Provibloc at that time seemed very ill-timed (to some even coordinated) and it drew our attention from a more important goal. For a few days we were constantly hopping catch to querios and back sometimes several times a day and the double front was making people unhappy. And then the Goons imploded. This left us with our full attention span to dedicate to the defense of Catch. The battle for D-G was plagued with unfortunate temporal disturbances. Nobody denies that. However the decision to jump the providence fleet out of the system was a poor one and if done otherwise (for example dropping the shields on the pos and engaging instead of jumping out) it would have shaped things quite differently. I remember at one point all carriers in our fleet straining to keep a titan from rapidly loosing armor. We all know what happened afterward so no point in recalling it.
Anyways after the battle an offer was made. At that time the idea of grinding through all of providence wasn't an appealing one and many pilots hoped an agreement would be reached. But the offer was refused. And refused with a veil of insult. That just couldn't stand. The idea put forward that -A- and allies didn't have the stamina to go through with an endeavor of such magnitude and would easily bore could have come only from someone who never experienced the way -A- worked on the inside. A month later the OP in this thread is the answer to the challenge.
If you look at things objectively not much has changed for -A- ... we still hold the same space, we have neutral neighbors a-plenty. The only thing that has changed for -A- is the threat that was on our borders was neutralized. Our allies have their old home back and we are very happy about it but for us it's back to the same old same old.
Yes the annihilation of Providence was an overreaction but one that could have been avoided after D-G.
Will New Providence be a new beacon of light in New Eden remains to be seen.
In any case I thank you for the exchange of opinions and the civilized manner in which it was executed.
Fly Safe. Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou are crunchy and go well with ketchup ... |
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