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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.14 00:32:00 -
[1]
Looking at the Tempest as it is now... it provides an inferior damage dealing platform to the Maelstrom, with generally speaking lower EHP. As we know what it does have is free high slots and better base velocity and agility. Still, as it is, most Tempests will be used to fill a role that can often be filled better by a Maelstrom. Not to mention that without Battleships 5 the Tempest quickly falls behind the Maelstrom due to its double damage bonus. Anyway, to the suggestion.
What I propose is a 7th gun, at the cost of a damage bonus. The dropped damage bonus would be replaced by a falloff bonus. This gives the Tempest a clear niche, it would be a superior Autocannon boat to the Maelstrom at the cost of inferior maximum dps, however it would still retain the utility high slot.
What would still be left to decide ofc is which damage bonus is removed, if the RoF bonus is dropped then the Tempest could also take place as the ship capable of the highest sub capital alpha damage (on par with the machariel although with lower overall dps).
Final issues would be whether to makes fitting changes, if comitted as an auto boat then it already has enough grid to handle the extra gun, however if the option to retain the raw damage bonus would be chosen then an improvement in overall grid would be nice... seeing as it would have to be RC+ACR or two of either to make the fit work.
Anyway, these are my thoughts. Lets see how they fare.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.14 02:03:00 -
[2]
I favor making the RoF bonus apply to missles and projectiles. It's minmitarish in nature. Leave the Damage bonus as is though. I like being able to use the tempest as both sniper and close range. But that's me and I still use the tempest as is, 'cause I'm old school.
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Jerid Verges
Gallente The Society of Innovation The Last Stand
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Posted - 2010.04.14 02:52:00 -
[3]
Wait. You want to give the KING of suicide ganking ANOTHER highslot for a SEVENTH turret for a completely staggering Aplha strike?
The Tempest is fine. Plenty of people fly that ship. If anything this almost sounds like a stealth suicide ganking buff.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.04.14 03:35:00 -
[4]
They're supposedly fixing insurance, so most likely it won't be as feasible for suicide ganking.
Other then the price, the maelstrom is superior in every way. Sure it's a bit more agile and faster, but all the tier 2 battleships are compared to the tier 3. There really is no reason to fly a tempest other then flavor.
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.14 11:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Alexander Det1989 on 14/04/2010 11:56:27
Originally by: Torothanax They're supposedly fixing insurance, so most likely it won't be as feasible for suicide ganking.
Other then the price, the maelstrom is superior in every way. Sure it's a bit more agile and faster, but all the tier 2 battleships are compared to the tier 3. There really is no reason to fly a tempest other then flavor.
This, and I only suggest keeping the raw damage bonus, in terms of flat dps keeping the RoF bonus for a falloff would work out better anyway. Afterall, 7 guns with only a RoF bonus is obviously less alpha than a Mael, and a bit less alpha than currently (currently 7.5 guns effectively).
As an autocannon specialist ship it would be superior no doubt to the Maelstrom (bar those who "must" have more EFT dps) and "could" be more capable at extreme ranges thanks to the additional falloff, although Tempests have locking issues in the 200+ region without 3 sensor mods... which again favours a short/medium range specialist.
Originally by: Torothanax I favor making the RoF bonus apply to missles and projectiles. It's minmitarish in nature. Leave the Damage bonus as is though. I like being able to use the tempest as both sniper and close range. But that's me and I still use the tempest as is, 'cause I'm old school.
As much as I'm a fan of split weapon systems, this is already a niche clearly filled at battleship level by the Typhoon.
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.04.14 12:11:00 -
[6]
This, and an extra 3300 grid, and we're cool ---
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.15 12:24:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat This, and an extra 3300 grid, and we're cool
Well, gotta say that would be nice. But if it were considered an auto boat the extra grid wouldn't be necessary. This would also preserve stats balance as it were. Obviously you'd want the extra grid for an artillery fit... but well, the apoc can't go full 8 Tachyons without two grid mods either. So that might be a consideration.
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.16 00:52:00 -
[8]
Still looking for more feedback.
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.17 19:03:00 -
[9]
Bump.
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Mimiru Minahiro
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Posted - 2010.04.17 20:29:00 -
[10]
Let me get this straight...
Is the argument: a BS of a lower tier has less EHP and dmg than a tope tier BS...and so should be buffed.
OR
Is the argument: Tempest has no clear niche in comparison to its racial brethren
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Aqriue
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Posted - 2010.04.17 23:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mimiru Minahiro Let me get this straight...
Is the argument: a BS of a lower tier has less EHP and dmg than a tope tier BS...and so should be buffed.
OR
Is the argument: Tempest has no clear niche in comparison to its racial brethren
Actually, the Maelstrom needs a nerf to fit that wierd niche that is split weapon's system every T1 matar hull has bigger then a frigate. Tempest fits 6 guns in 8 highs, the Maelstrom has room for 3 launchers, but it can fit eight turrets in the eight high slots. WTF is that?
Being serious, I would like to see the tempest get a seventh turret, one less high for a mid and a falloff bonus instead of damage so it becomes an autocannon boat with a shield tank and has a clear cut defined roll. Its not like one less ship will hurt the mixed-do anything/everything shield/armor/speed tanks with mixed weapons layout for the Minmatar lines.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.18 08:26:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 18/04/2010 08:30:45
Originally by: Alexander Det1989 Looking at the Tempest as it is now... it provides an inferior damage dealing platform to the Maelstrom, with generally speaking lower EHP.
Tier 2 versus Tier 3, Working as intended. You are trying to fix a flaw that does not exist.
Would you want to see a damage+range bonus on the Apocalypse, because it has inferior damage and tank compared to the Abaddon so it is obviously in need of help
PS: Wasn't the Maelstrom designed to be the active tank, close range AC mofo of all time? Why do you want another ship that does the exact same thing?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Words to live by.
Edit:
Originally by: Aqriue Actually, the Maelstrom needs a nerf to fit that wierd niche that is split weapon's system
That is a common misconception, the fact that it has launcher slots has nothing to do with that. If one bonus was for missiles then yes, otherwise it merely adds options. The Arbitrator would be the penultimate split weapon system ship if the presence of slot allowance was the determining thing
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2010.04.18 10:51:00 -
[13]
Edited by: To mare on 18/04/2010 10:52:25 just no cutting the dps of the already lowest damaging BS (except the scorpion) isnt a good idea.
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.18 12:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Tier 2 versus Tier 3, Working as intended. You are trying to fix a flaw that does not exist.
Would you want to see a damage+range bonus on the Apocalypse, because it has inferior damage and tank compared to the Abaddon so it is obviously in need of help
More the point is that the Maelstrom outperforms the Tempest in the same role (also an answer to Mimiru). Apoc has vastly superior long ranged and cap sustainability to the Abaddon, Raven is well, the missile BS, Megathron has tracking... just makes it better up close, or in midrange. These are all clearly different from their tier3 counterparts (Mega/Hyperion would be the least distinct otherwise). So yes, give the Tempest a different role... atm it is, as i said, just an inferior version of the Maelstrom, spare highs maybe... but it's not like there's much you need two for that can't be made well with just one... especially once you consider fitting limitations.
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To mare
Amarr Advanced Technology
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Posted - 2010.04.18 12:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: To mare just no cutting the dps of the already lowest damaging BS (except the scorpion) isnt a good idea.
This rapidly becomes a dps buff as you move into medium range anyway.
still a nerf for fighting in close range. but even if it was a buff to DPS its still not worth the loss of a high slot.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.18 13:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Alexander Det1989 So yes, give the Tempest a different role... atm it is, as i said, just an inferior version of the Maelstrom ...
What role? The change you are suggesting moves it into Maelstrom territory not away from it .. you want to make it an AC boat which it already can be but is not limited to.
Originally by: Alexander Det1989 Anyway you picked a small part of my proposition that does indeed make it look like I'm making the claim you think I am.
I chose to focus on the change that would ruin the ship the most, critics prerogative .
You really want to set it apart from the Maelstrom?
- Change RoF to Damage bonus so it has a 10%/level. - Increase grid to allow full rack of big bore guns + mediocre tank (fitting mods/rigs or smaller bore needed for full fleet buffer). - Reduce capacitor size/recharge to prevent AC/Neut pwn-mobile made possible by more grid.
There is your Tempest with a clear role without being pigeon holed.
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DustiX
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Posted - 2010.04.18 13:11:00 -
[17]
Edited by: DustiX on 18/04/2010 13:13:00 when i see the tempest and its double damage bonus i think it should do more projectile dps than any minmatar BS. typhoon have drones missiles and projectiles maelstrom have projectiles + drones
imho the tempest should have its launchers hardpoints removed and its bonuses changed to 5% projectiles rof per level and 7,5 to projectile damage per level. a tiny bit more alpha than the maelstrom (wich also make sense because minmatar BS should have more alpha than another race BS with arty) and a bit more turret dps.
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.18 13:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida You really want to set it apart from the Maelstrom?
- Change RoF to Damage bonus so it has a 10%/level. - Increase grid to allow full rack of big bore guns + mediocre tank (fitting mods/rigs or smaller bore needed for full fleet buffer). - Reduce capacitor size/recharge to prevent AC/Neut pwn-mobile made possible by more grid.
There is your Tempest with a clear role without being pigeon holed.
This is actually a reasonable suggestion. However you're just looking at this the opposite way. You see the Maelstrom as the up close Auto boat already (obviously, you've stated this), therefore you think instead I should be suggesting the Tempest become the better sniper? I however see the Maelstrom as the superior sniper (which currently, it certainly is), and therefore suggest making the Tempest the superior autocannon boat.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.04.18 13:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Alexander Det1989 This is actually a reasonable suggestion. However you're just looking at this the opposite way. You see the Maelstrom as the up close Auto boat already (obviously, you've stated this), therefore you think instead I should be suggesting the Tempest become the better sniper? I however see the Maelstrom as the superior sniper (which currently, it certainly is), and therefore suggest making the Tempest the superior autocannon boat.
Most definitely, the Maelstrom makes a superb sniper. Reason why I consider it to be meant for the AC role is the insane active tanking capability it has .. as a sniper it will have to discard one bonus where the 'Pest will be using both. Except for the Caldari, the tier3's all appear to be optimized for the close range slug-fests (prior to buffering becoming the norm).
I am just trying to pre-empt the complaint that is bound to come somewhere down the road when the Minmatar realise that having 2 ships with roughly the same function makes for a boring selection. Might as well lobby for making the Maelstrom into the de-facto sniper with optimal or falloff bonus instead of the tank bonus.
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.18 13:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Might as well lobby for making the Maelstrom into the de-facto sniper with optimal or falloff bonus instead of the tank bonus.
Unfortunately such a suggestion is guaranteed to be flamed to death by those that like their active tanking beast :P. However in the end then, a falloff bonus would work as an ambiguity buff almost for the Tempest, seeing as it would both be an autocannon and artillery buff. Although in the case of artillery it would only apply to extreme range sniping, as it's not like it has Naglfar falloff which gives it pretty much optimal dps at all ranges with short range ammo :P. Anyway, that's a bit of contradiction in my proposition I guess... but I'm sticking to my guns :P.
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Seslana
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Posted - 2010.04.18 15:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Alexander Det1989 Looking at the Tempest as it is now... it provides an inferior damage dealing platform to the Maelstrom, with generally speaking lower EHP.
Tier 2 versus Tier 3, Working as intended. You are trying to fix a flaw that does not exist.
Would you want to see a damage+range bonus on the Apocalypse, because it has inferior damage and tank compared to the Abaddon so it is obviously in need of help
PS: Wasn't the Maelstrom designed to be the active tank, close range AC mofo of all time? Why do you want another ship that does the exact same thing?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Words to live by.
This is pretty much spot on. Tempest is fine as it is!
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Skyrape
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Posted - 2010.04.19 11:34:00 -
[22]
*blinks* tempest... superior to mael? where did that come from?
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Alexander Det1989
Caldari Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.19 13:09:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Sky**** *blinks* tempest... superior to mael? where did that come from?
The point was never to make it superior hands down to the Mael, but rather to give it at least one thing it can definitely do better.
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Makar Kravchenko
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Posted - 2010.04.19 13:26:00 -
[24]
I think since the projectile buff, all Minmatar ships have taken a step in the right direction. At this point, and RR A/C tempest is pretty nasty. It's also got a WTFBBQ alpha strike at a modest 152km. Falloff out past targetting Range. Its a ship that can fill more than one role. If you change it, you could break it. Please dont.
Maelstrom can whoop ass with Autocannons, and the alpha strike on a 1400 setup according to EFT anyways is more than a proper fit Sniper Tempest. Both Ships can fill the short, and close range role. Which is why we like them.
Though I do like these ships the way they are, I would certainly be happy to see all minmatar ships get rid of their missile hardpoints :).
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.04.19 16:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Alexander Det1989
Originally by: Sky**** *blinks* tempest... superior to mael? where did that come from?
The point was never to make it superior hands down to the Mael, but rather to give it at least one thing it can definitely do better.
the tempest can slaughter BC HAC and smaller target better than both the mael and the phoon
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