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Scheulagh Santorine
Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.17 15:51:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Scheulagh Santorine on 19/04/2010 05:28:59
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Just dropping by to say this is awesome.
Thanks, Zymurgist. I'm just glad that this stuff didn't excite your EULA alarms, and that the community can get into it...
A few notes at this point: 1 - To recognize community feedback that is helping me to refine these notes, I have made a contributors/acknowledgments section in the introductory knol page. Thanks to those who have helped so far, and keep the reviews and thoughts coming.
2 - The tracking chapter will not be done for a very long time, but I will be finishing off the sections that are labeled 'under construction.' I also have some speculative appendices in the works that will explain my extensions to the orbit model and delve into what I have glossed over in the main chapter.
S. Santorine
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2010.04.19 11:09:00 -
[32]
This is awesome, and gave me the inspiration to make this demotivator. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Gunner77
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Posted - 2010.04.19 23:28:00 -
[33]
If I wanted to figure out how far my BS could bump a sieged dread, I need:
Quote: x(t->∞) = (2v1m1 / m1+m2) * (m2 I2)
I understand the equation just fine, I just cannot figure out how I would derive 'I' for a ship that has a Vmax of 0. Excuse my fail if I just suck at reading/math.
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Zackalwe
Gallente Rodents of Unusual Size
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Posted - 2010.04.21 11:55:00 -
[34]
Maybe its time to take a look at the Dramiel... _
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Dal'thiron
Gallente Best Path Inc. Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.21 14:38:00 -
[35]
Sometimes, late at night, when I cannot sleep, I login and ask Santorine to whisper maths to me. I am usually out within a couple of minutes. Faster than the bottle of Ambien that now collects dust on my nightstand.
♥ SS
-Dal
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Scheulagh Santorine
Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.21 16:23:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Gunner77 If I wanted to figure out how far my BS could bump a sieged dread, I need:
Quote: x(t->∞) = (2v1m1 / m1+m2) * (m2 I2)
I understand the equation just fine, I just cannot figure out how I would derive 'I' for a ship that has a Vmax of 0. Excuse my fail if I just suck at reading/math.
No deriving needed. The discussion in the bumping section explains this, that his max velocity being zero means he can not accelerate his dread while sieged. You, on the other hand can, and the usual rules should apply.
So, the inertia (or drag factor) for dreads is available in their info. Alternatively, you can just board yours and take a look at the fitting screen. I also summarized the average, all-skills-at-5 inertia factor in the table in the Capital bumping section ~ 0.029.
Instead of using, x(t->∞) = (2v1m1 / m1+m2) * (m2 I2) just approximate the whole thing (because your BS is 1/8th the weight of a dread), x(t->∞) = 2 v1 m1 I2
I think with a good overloaded bump and some run-up room, you should be able to launch his ass about 6-10km, but you'd do better in a 100mn stabber.
S. Santorine
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Gunner77
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Posted - 2010.04.21 21:10:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Gunner77 on 21/04/2010 21:25:30 If I did everything right, a snaked 100mn Vagabond getting gang bonuses will bump a sieged Rev 40km!?!?!?! It bumps him out at 195 m/s, every time he has to switch ammo cause hes drifting soo far away, is less dps on your fleet. Kinda interesting as dreads have terrible tracking, and if they have close range weapons fit, they would have to swap to long range ammo to hit the target.
*the numbers I used just to check on me math* Vaga = 20,000 m/s (!!!), 61590000 kg Rev = 0.03071 s/Mkg, 12375000000 kg (siege mode adds mass now)
I got ~40km when I ran it through the equation. Can someone smarter than me check to see if it really is possible to bump a dread that far?
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.04.22 07:19:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 22/04/2010 07:22:34 Very well done.
One thing about orbit - there is an advantage in the automatic orbit. It moves the direction continuously, therefore minimizing the variance in your movement. You miss this in your analysis because you consider the instantaneous speed, if I got it right (it's been quite a while since I dabbled with multidimensional derivatives).
In game terms, when you have an advantage, you're probably better off - at least based on my experience - with the orbit button. For example in a rifter orbiting an arty thrasher, I want to avoid the risk that I change direction right when he shots, momentarily reducing my transversal. The automatic orbit is then safer. When you're at a disadvantage, you are probably in need of luck; then orbiting manually could save your ass if your instantaneous speed reaches its top when the enemy shots. Or could make things worse
EDIT another minor note about bumps, in the game the situations are usually rather more complex than linearly accelerating towards a static target. I find it easier to bump them with slightly bigger ships, I think because the collision will be between smaller angles, of the surfaces of the ship-bubbles.
Maybe I suck at bumping though
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Scheulagh Santorine
Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2010.04.22 18:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gunner77 Edited by: Gunner77 on 21/04/2010 21:28:57 If I did everything right, a snaked 100mn Vagabond getting gang bonuses will bump a sieged Rev 76km!?!?!?! Bumps them out at 195 m/s which is kinda interesting as dreads have terrible tracking. If they have close range weapons fit, they would have to swap to long range ammo, lowering dps.
*the numbers I used just to check on me math* Vaga = 20,000 m/s (!!!), 61590000 kg Rev = 0.03071 s/Mkg, 12375000000 kg (siege mode adds mass now)
I got ~76km when I ran it through the equation. Can someone smarter than me check to see if it really is possible to bump a dread that far?
Lets try it! I'll siege my moros on the test-server with a point reference setup, and we can bump it around. I'm eager to get better data on capital bumping. There are a few things to note about what you propose though. . .
The setup you are describing is extremely specialized. I would find it hard to believe that anyone would invest so much in bumping on Tranquility. If you are plagued by docking-games, you can get a decent bump from a couple stabbers, without resorting to a maxed out command ship. So, I will assume that you are interested in this for instructional purposes only.
Also, thank you for reminding me about the mass change for triage/siege modules. I will add this to the bump section. It is most interesting to note that, because m2 >> m1 for capital bumps, this change in mass has little effect on bumping distance. The ten-fold increase in mass, and consequently in maneuvering time-constant, is completely offset by the fact that the capital is accelerated by one-tenth the rate it is without the mass addition. And because V_{MAX} is zero in siege/triage, it has no effect on self-motion programs. Curious choice.
All the same, it would be good to try this.
S. Santorine
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Liache Lempourage
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.04.29 21:22:00 -
[40]
That is some amazing work, I hope there will be more!
Also shows how overpowered the dramiel is.
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Scheulagh Santorine
Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.02 00:33:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Liache Lempourage That is some amazing work, I hope there will be more!
Also shows how overpowered the dramiel is.
Thanks for reading. I made some updates and appendices concerning the ship maneuverability parameters which may contribute to the picture a bit:- Updated the tables with corrected numbers (somehow my code and my typing were off). I double-checked all the numbers on the tables and figures and found some errors that overstated some frigate performance.
- Added a figure (I.A-1) in Appendix A that shows decoupled maneuvering parameters. That is, my figures 1-4 and 1-5 show maximum speed and acceleration because I wanted to compare terms that correspond to what players feel when they fly the ship. The new figure in the appendix just shows V_{MAX} vs. \tau, which better represents how the parameters are grouped.
- Added three figures for cruiser motion parameters. These are cluttered with ship-names so I made some detail figures so that the reader can see the data points.
- Added the effect of training one more level of Navigation skills to the \omega_{MAX} limits table.
More updates to follow when RL isn't so busy. . .
While I wont comment in the article itself, I thought I'd put my thoughts out here on the Dramiel since many of you seem to be interested in it. First of all, using the term 'overpowered' when describing the Dramiel is not really justified by anything I have written. Yes, it is the most maneuverable ship out-of-the-box, but to show it to be 'overpowered' you would require a broad discussion of missile damage, tracking, capacitor mechanics, drones, etc... All my chapter addresses is the motion of ships. My subsequent chapters, whatever success they have at addressing these other topics will not make an effort to address any hull specifically.
I think readers should try to take a broader view of ship motion when talking about the Dramiel. When CCP undertook a speed rebalancing some years ago, they produced some blog notes on it. If you read in between the lines in their blog notes, you could see that speed itself is not the problem. So, they removed the overlapping bonuses of drugs, gang-links, and implants to speed-tank cruisers.
The Dramiel is different than the nano-ships of old for a few simple reasons:- Availability of cheap counters -- Some experimentation with Tech I cruisers may give you decent results in this area. Not perfect, but workable.
- Cost is not prohibitive -- Dramiels are free. Yes, free. I have never paid for a Dramiel and I've had as many as five. <prepare troll shield>
- Requires relatively few SP -- The number of skill-points to fly them effectively is relatively low.
- Few hit-points -- Its one thing to be whipping around the grid at 8km/s with 5,000 EHP. It is another thing entirely to be going the same speed with 40,000 EHP, irrespective of counters.
I think about these points before I get my rage on. CCP never wanted to get rid of the thrill of going fast. They wanted to get rid of a class of ships for which the only counter was the same class of ships. I hope I have outlined why the Dramiel is not currently 'overpowered' per se.
Regards,
S. Santorine
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.02 07:01:00 -
[42]
Wonderful write-up. I knew a lot of that before, but I've never seen it done anywhere even remotely as thoroughly. I especially liked the part on bumping, having some solid numbers to associate with that is very nifty. Also, I must say, I never realized just how ludicrously agile the Angel ships are until I saw them out in their own little world on those speed/agility graphs.
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Dotard
Minmatar Com-Star SOLARIS - SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2010.05.02 12:22:00 -
[43]
Holy Raptor Jesus! This just made my head explode.
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w1ndstrike
Honored By Death
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Posted - 2010.05.03 05:36:00 -
[44]
I think this might deserve some glue in the appropriate forum? (at the least a link in the ships and modules resource pages)
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Nilania Telshua
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Posted - 2010.05.04 12:30:00 -
[45]
You just my head. Need a shower and some math textbooks ;)
Great Job !
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Penny Pancakes
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Posted - 2010.05.05 14:20:00 -
[46]
This is scary. Really scary. As a non-math-player I can only say: whatever you wrote there, you should either get straight into a mental hospital or rewarded a medal.
For me, it's just blabber... but eh, all math is blabber to me :)
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Railwhore
Minmatar Advocates of Sin
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Posted - 2010.05.05 17:51:00 -
[47]
Amazing read...
Your section on Automatic Orbit Data is amazing. I look forward to more!
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Kitun
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Posted - 2010.05.06 12:59:00 -
[48]
MOTO aside, I still find it strange to put a max speed in a space game.
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Scheulagh Santorine
Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.06 13:37:00 -
[49]
Originally by: w1ndstrike I think this might deserve some glue in the appropriate forum? (at the least a link in the ships and modules resource pages)
Thank you for reading.
I'm honored that you consider it worthy of glue, although I think that this is unlikely to happen in the short term. For one thing, stickying can only be applied in these forums by CCP, so it might imply that they feel my notes are both complete and correct. You can see from the unfinished sections though that it is not complete, and I indicate in my discussion of orbit mechanics that it is not strictly speaking correct. Although I confess, I am working on an appendix that spells out the final details on orbits, there is still much more to do.
Its frustrating because I'd like to finish it but RL is busy and when I'm online I tend to like to shoot things instead. I do want to finish it, after all, a lot of guides out there focus on What is in the game -- ship, turret and module parameters. I am trying to focus instead on How the game works and what that means for piloting.
Thanks again for reading. Time will tell how this progresses. . .
S. Santorine
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Speec
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.05.06 15:43:00 -
[50]
I'd like to convert the thing into ebook format. Permission?
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Scheulagh Santorine
Best Path Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.08 02:34:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Speec I'd like to convert the thing into ebook format. Permission?
Look, when its done you can immortalize it however you wish (provided its noncommercial, links to the original, and credits me, as per the Creative Commons license). So, I'd say for now don't go all out with an e-book because the content is going to change. I have some new stuff in the works for Chapter I even. Thank you for your interest in getting it out there to more readers though.
S. Santorine
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Peter Powers
FinFleet IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.08 11:58:00 -
[52]
awesome, but i would have expected to find it in technology labs..
Northern Crusade - Daily numbers on EVE's largest current conflict |
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