Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Xina Tutor
Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2010.04.19 21:36:00 -
[31]
Ushra'Khan is an NBSI alliance and has been so for a very long time. I don't understand why anyone would expect them to become a NRDS alliance.
It was always clear that Providence would be closed under this new management. And There will be always slaves for Ushra'Khan to use as a crutch.
If not then perhaps they will launch a 'save the cattle' campaign....
|
Maggot
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.19 21:55:00 -
[32]
Maggot listened to the old receiver in his quarters. These days no-one used these frequencies. As has he turned the dial he heard whistling, rhythmic pulses, bursts of static and occasional shrieks that caused the speakers in the unit to pop. None of it made any sense, but Maggot somehow found it comforting that these sounds were always there. |
Forlorn Wongraven
Universal Army Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.19 22:17:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven on 19/04/2010 22:17:41 When running out of pod pilots only words remain. I expect more words from Merdaneth. ____________________
Lord Makk > I swear to god if there is a saviour, his name is Forlorn.
|
Chav Queen
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2010.04.19 22:50:00 -
[34]
Your excuses for shooting nuetrals are about as lame as your excuses for making war. Fact is you dont have any real excuses for anything. UK has lost any purpose and ideals and sold them all down the road.
Your only excuse for doing anything now is because you want too,rather than some kind idealogical or political reason. Quite simply you have become just another run of the mill 00 space holding alliance. Freedom? You dont even know the meaning of the word.
|
Jonathan Ryaul
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.19 23:27:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Jonathan Ryaul on 19/04/2010 23:31:24 So shoot us.
|
Black Necris
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 00:18:00 -
[36]
Why do everyone think they can say what followers of the New and Improved Church of Providence (NICHUP) should or shouldn't do?
As the new and only Archbishop of Providence i can tell you that UK is a NRDS alliance, with an NBSI policy in the regions of Catch and Providence, and this has been said over and over again. Will UK change their policies back to NRDS in providence? Yes. When? When we see fit. Why? Because we choose to, the free will is one of the beautiful things that come with liberty, and we are free to decide.
Most Eminent and Enlightened Highness Lord Black Necris Archbishop for the New and Improved Church of Providence (NICHUP)
"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." |
Tizian Enel
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 01:10:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Merdaneth I believe I am keeping slaves for their own good. Do you believe you are shooting neutrals in Providence for their own good?
Since most of the drivel coming at us on IGS is designed to make us look bad, let's consider what happened if we went NRDS right now.
There would be a summit post about how Ushra'Khans NRDS policy is foolish and only results in neutrals entering a warzone and dying, thus the fault lies directly upon Ushra'Khan. Surely they wouldn't have entered without Ushra'Khans NRDS policy. Then the thread will go on for a bit with straws grasped and eventually when no more straws are found, someone summons another capsuleer alliance to it and the thread can be derailed while still keeping the mud slinging aspect intact. If you throw enough mud, some of it will stick, right?
As to Merdaneth not being part of the slaver provibloc.. oh give me a break. He may technically not be in the alliances that belonged but ideologically is as close as one can get.
|
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 01:30:00 -
[38]
You are NRDS except where you actually have territory.
You free slaves except if they belong to your allies.
You purport indifference to others' perceptions of you, yet refute every accusation (even when forcing you into being at odds with your own statements elsewhere) and/or suggest a violent solution in response.
As stated right here in this thread, anyone a U'K member kills deserved it in some way, either through unstated (or proven) threat of their presence, demonstration of ignorance, or perhaps just holds a belief that U'K doesn't like (or whatever other rationale needs to be manufactured).
In this thread, we're lead to believe that the state of the war is such that security must remain high, yet in other threads, we're lead to believe that the CVA resistance is so pathetic that effectively no war even exists.
I'm beginning to lose count of the number of ways that Ushra wants to have it both ways. There was something admirable about the unapologetic abolitionist stance, this new one strikes me as just plain narcissistic chest-beating and posturing.
|
Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 01:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Syyl'ara I'm beginning to lose count of the number of ways that Ushra wants to have it both ways. There was something admirable about the unapologetic abolitionist stance, this new one strikes me as just plain narcissistic chest-beating and posturing.
Really? It comes across to me more as honest efforts to adjust to changed circumstances, with a pack of frankly partisan (one way or another) entities pounding on them for every perceived slip.
It reminds me a lot of the spot CVA was in, actually.
|
Kazzzi
Amarr Iniquitous Technologies Deep Space Engineering
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 01:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Syyl'ara You are NRDS except where you actually have territory.
U'K was NRDS in Curse when they lived in Curse despite the challenges it posed, but that was a lil bit before your time.
To U'K, since your ROE is sooo interesting to the universe, you guys should post it in big bright letters on a galnet page and simply link it every time some twit pretends they don't grasp it. Then again, even if you post it in 16 languages and on audio format, you will still have twits pretending not to understand just so they can throw mud. Price of glory I suppose. |
|
Keve Treadwell
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 03:15:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Merdaneth I have sincere doubts about their commitment to Freespace or NRDS.
Who cares what this guy has doubts about? Seriously, why do we care what he thinks?
|
Tizian Enel
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 03:32:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Tizian Enel on 20/04/2010 03:32:19
Originally by: Keve Treadwell
Originally by: Merdaneth I have sincere doubts about their commitment to Freespace or NRDS.
Who cares what this guy has doubts about? Seriously, why do we care what he thinks?
We care enough to respond because we're not confident everyone can sift through the inconsistencies in logic or avoid the sway of propaganda and spin. We'd rather have those people not join the enemy as puppets ...for in space it's a numbers game and the winner isn't always the most righteous.
|
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 16:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Aria Jenneth Really? It comes across to me more as honest efforts to adjust to changed circumstances, with a pack of frankly partisan (one way or another) entities pounding on them for every perceived slip.
It reminds me a lot of the spot CVA was in, actually.
Partisan certainly applies to both sides, not just the detractors, I've seen plenty of tortured logic paraded out in U'K's defense just as much as I've seen pointless mud-flinging in their direction.
Also, you say CVA and U'K's circumstances are similar, yet CVA was able to continue as NRDS while U'K cannot seem to bring itself to do so (and offering 20 different excuses for why, half of which contradict other given reasons).
Originally by: Kazzzi U'K was NRDS in Curse when they lived in Curse despite the challenges it posed, but that was a lil bit before your time.
Which means what right now? If anything this again proves that entities are capable of maintaining NRDS despite high levels of anxiety/security alert.
So apparently U'K can't hack it like CVA, or SF, or like they could in their ealier years?
This isn't an unheard of trend, U'K wanted to have a bigger tent...naturally with that comes dilution of core principles.
Quote: To U'K, since your ROE is sooo interesting to the universe, you guys should post it in big bright letters on a galnet page and simply link it every time some twit pretends they don't grasp it. Then again, even if you post it in 16 languages and on audio format, you will still have twits pretending not to understand just so they can throw mud. Price of glory I suppose.
Well, maybe its twits pretending not to understand, or maybe its U'K being twits and pretending not to understand the response to their continued at-odds-with-themselves statements and being as intentionally obfuscating as possible in a desperate attempt not to say what most everyone seems to already know.
|
Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 16:04:00 -
[44]
For the hard of understanding, current UK RoE is that if you are red, you will be shot. If you are neutral and in providence or catch you are considered hostile for the time being, neutrals elsewhere will not be attacked unless in self defense.
Blues will not be shot at. |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 16:12:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 20/04/2010 16:12:03
Originally by: Xennith For the hard of understanding, current UK RoE is that if you are red, you will be shot. If you are neutral and in providence or catch you are considered hostile for the time being, neutrals elsewhere will not be attacked unless in self defense.
Blues will not be shot at.
RYWBSNiPCHNEAOiSD
got it.
|
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 16:18:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 20/04/2010 16:19:19
Originally by: Syyl'ara Also, you say CVA and U'K's circumstances are similar, yet CVA was able to continue as NRDS while U'K cannot seem to bring itself to do so (and offering 20 different excuses for why, half of which contradict other given reasons).
I would caution you against buying too deeply into the mythology that the CVA "NRDS" was in any way close to SF or prior UK "NRDS". The CVA were standings enclosurists to the core and their take on NRDS only worked because they dominated the standings regimes of all entities in their territory. There was literally no freedom amongst the pets and residents of Providence and the moment anyone moved against CVA politically they were -10 to all.
Its better to understand CVA in the context of a restrictive NBSI state really. If you were not a supporter/collaborator in Amarrian Imperialism and slavery you were set red. NSSI (Not slaver shoot it) perhaps.
At its height the regime in CVA providence was quite capable of lying and bullying to get particular entities set red on the preference of Aralis alone while turning a blind eye to pirates and ransomers and extortion outfits using Providence as a safe haven to conduct raids against "neutrals" elsewhere.
On balance using "NRDS" as a bulk term to describe CVA policies in Providence is so vague and inaccurate as to be unhelpful and positively misleading.
We had many years experience of how CVA standings enclosurism worked and it wasn't anything like the kind of NRDS freespace Star Fraction practise and nothing like how we expect a future Ushra'khan NRDS based standings policy in Providence to function either.
True Knowledge |
Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 16:23:00 -
[47]
Is our ROE really that hard to comprehend for you "enlightened" Amarrians?
Now if only you spent half the energy you use to whine and complain like children to actually do something...
Quote: CCP Mindstar > Sorry - I've completely messed all that up. lets try again
|
Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 16:39:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Lykouleon Is our ROE really that hard to comprehend for you "enlightened" Amarrians?
Now if only you spent half the energy you use to whine and complain like children to actually do something...
Given how often complaints about it crop up, I guess its pretty hard to grasp. If our pilots can be made to sit down for long enough to grasp the concept it must be willful ignorance on the part of the slaver bloc. |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 17:11:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Jade Constantine I would caution you against buying too deeply into the mythology that the CVA "NRDS" was in any way close to SF or prior UK "NRDS". The CVA were standings enclosurists to the core and their take on NRDS only worked because they dominated the standings regimes of all entities in their territory. There was literally no freedom amongst the pets and residents of Providence and the moment anyone moved against CVA politically they were -10 to all.
Its better to understand CVA in the context of a restrictive NBSI state really. If you were not a supporter/collaborator in Amarrian Imperialism and slavery you were set red. NSSI (Not slaver shoot it) perhaps.
I've seen it put forward that any visitor contributing to the economy of providence under CVA is technically a supporter/collaborator of imperialism and slavery. U'K has a different orientation of beliefs, but their demand for conformity is just as apparent as those they replace.
Quote: At its height the regime in CVA providence was quite capable of lying and bullying to get particular entities set red on the preference of Aralis alone while turning a blind eye to pirates and ransomers and extortion outfits using Providence as a safe haven to conduct raids against "neutrals" elsewhere.
I'm weighing U'K's current policy against their own continuously ambiguous position that they'll some day maybe have something resembling NRDS again. At the current time, given the intentions -A- has for the region, it does not appear that allies will be discouraged from roaming for neutrals. It seems to come down to an outlook of "how is this any better than before?" being responded to with "it certainly isn't any worse, is it?" This is the fallacy of pointing to another wrong, a distraction from the forward-looking concerns by arguing over what the specifics of the past were (not that I dismiss the importance of learning from history).
Quote: On balance using "NRDS" as a bulk term to describe CVA policies in Providence is so vague and inaccurate as to be unhelpful and positively misleading.
We had many years experience of how CVA standings enclosurism worked and it wasn't anything like the kind of NRDS freespace Star Fraction practise and nothing like how we expect a future Ushra'khan NRDS based standings policy in Providence to function either.
More ambiguity, "we expect", "future Ushra'Khan", and "NRDS-based".
I think the legitimate concern here (admittedly drowned out by partisan posturing) is on the part of a number of industrialists (Matari included, mind you) who can't help but be disappointed at the prospect of a region with such rich infrastructure development and trade opportunities becoming a capsuleer gladiatorial arena and ****-fighting ring.
|
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 17:17:00 -
[50]
How much do you think we really care about a bunch of the more cowardly industrialist capsuleers compared to the fates of innumerable slaves saved from servitude to expansionist Amarrian pilots? Our priorities differ from yours.
|
|
Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 17:23:00 -
[51]
Ms. Constantine, repeating untruths doesn't make them true.
Suppose you are a lone wolf in Providence, and you are settings your standings completely independent of outside influence and pressure, you tend to act quite simple:
- You set to pilots/organizations that open fire on you to hostile - You set pilots/organizations that never open fire on you and even help you to blue.
If you went into CVA Providence and followed these two simple common sense rules, you would end up with a KOS list that would largely match the KOS list of CVA. No external pressure needed at all, simply a result of applying common sense rules which were reflected in the CVA rules for Providence.
It seems to me that you are desperately attacking this because CVA they managed to built a FreeSpace region attractive to neutrals, something you were never able to do able to.
If we look at the present, we see that Star Fraction FreeSpace ideal has them making friends with neighbouring NBSI entities, practically forcing any lone wolves to ally themselves with those entities as well if they want to freely make use of Star Fraction space.
Example: if you live in the middle of a alley and befriend the armed gangs that control access to the street while knowing they will try to shoot and rob people trying to enter the alley, you would be a very, very poor host to invite anyone over to your house. An invite from you would be tantamount to setting people up for a robbery. In fact, you wouldn't even lift a finger if your mugger friends attacked and killed your other friends! To make it worse, you would even admonish them when you stand at their graves for not being more self-reliant and able to defend themselves. You have some gall, I'll give you that. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 17:24:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Merdaneth Ms. Constantine, repeating untruths doesn't make them true.
Go away you pathetic little man.
True Knowledge |
Tizian Enel
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 18:13:00 -
[53]
Anyone still remember what I mentioned about NRDS just a short while ago? I expected it to be used against Ushra'Khan but it got used against Star Fraction first.
I hope I didn't give Merdaneth the idea..
|
Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 18:22:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Syyl'ara I think the legitimate concern here (admittedly drowned out by partisan posturing) is on the part of a number of industrialists (Matari included, mind you) who can't help but be disappointed at the prospect of a region with such rich infrastructure development and trade opportunities becoming a capsuleer gladiatorial arena and ****-fighting ring.
To restate Borza Slavak's point in slightly less, ah, aggressive terms, pilot, U'K didn't oppose CVA in order to promote trade. For U'K, Providence was a bazaar run by a child-eating devil.
For U'K, the idea of peace for the sake of prosperity is morally absurd. We'll see whether CVA adopts the same attitude once (and if) U'K gets its own bazaar up and running.
|
Xyla Vulchanus
Amarr Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 18:27:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Xina Tutor
The simple answer is that Ushra'Khan are an NBSI alliance. They have been for many years and no doubt like it that way. It's a much easier path to follow and it allows their pilots to shoot at will at any they choose to.
They have made claims of being NRDS, but in words only. They have certainly not practiced this in a very long time. And that is indeed their own business, I just think it odd that thy make the false claims about their RoE rather than just use the RoE they want and openly embrace NBSI completely.
They appear to need an 'excuse' to be NBSI, but they are rapidly running out of excuses.
You are quite ridiculous!
We Come For Our People (and your systems) |
Aria Jenneth
Caldari Kumiho's Smile
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 19:21:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 20/04/2010 19:23:58
Merdaneth:
Even though I do agree that there was a certain irony to the Fraction's hostility towards an NRDS "safe haven" within nullsec, it's also disingenuous to call CVA Providence "freespace."
As usual, I'll assume the Fraction will cheerfully correct me if I get some part of its policies wrong.
CVA, by its own many-times-repeated statement, was attempting to establish an extension of the Amarr Empire, and had hopes of eventually acquiring official recognition. To this end, it attempted to mimic Empire travel policy as much as possible.
The Amarr Empire, like all of the Yulai signatories, allows broad free passage to capsuleers it doesn't consider actively hostile. However, liberal travel policies alone do not "freespace" make: the Empire is, at heart, enclosurist, laying claim to vast swaths of space and ridiculous numbers of planets-- oh, and entire ethnicities of human beings (which it seemingly intends to ultimately include all of us).
"Freespace?" No. Just enclosed space with travel-friendly management. That is what CVA's model was based on, and that is why (well, part of why) the Fraction opposed it.
|
Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 19:56:00 -
[57]
Ms. Jenneth,
I agree with your analysis. Politically speaking CVA dominated Providence wasn't anything close to FreeSpace, the CVA had no intention of working towards the FreeSpace concept as popularized by the Star Fraction. However, practically speaking, it was the nullsec region that most closely resembled the FreeSpace ideal in New Eden.
Back to the present. Star Fraction are currently, politically speaking, claiming space. However, they made a point of saying that the political name tags don't mean anything, as what matters is how you use your political claim in practice. However, in turn I cannot help but think if they were really looking at the FreeSpace concept from a practical angle, they would have lauded the CVA as the foremost promotors of FreeSpace (in practice). Instead they chose to attack the CVA for political (and likely personal) reasons and sketched CVA as one of the most important opponents of FreeSpace. Also, they try and make peace with and befriend organizations that are (politically and practically) opposed to the FreeSpace ideal like Daisho Syndicate, and continue to be friends with an organization like the Ushra Khan who are politically supportive of the FreeSpace concept, but are practically opposing it (albeit temporarily according to their statements).
Hence my continued confusion about Star Fraction goals and policies. Are they dishonest, or simply blind and confused that they are unable to see the clear contradiction I see? ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Syyl'ara
Gallente Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 20:59:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Syyl''ara on 20/04/2010 21:00:06
Originally by: Borza Slavak Edited by: Borza Slavak on 20/04/2010 17:18:44 How much do you think we really care about a bunch of the more cowardly industrialist capsuleers compared to the fates of innumerable slaves saved from servitude to expansionist Amarrian pilots? Our priorities differ from yours. Any concerned 'Matari' industrialists who wish to complain I'm sure will be welcome to a 1 isk price on their head, just like the traitor Midular.
I see you chose the typical route of attaching some negative adjectives to the affected group, dismiss their concerns as beneath you, and conclude they are "traitors". For a group that positions itself as antithetical to the CVA, you sure do seem to operate from their playbook a lot.
|
Borza Slavak
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 21:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Syyl'ara Edited by: Syyl''ara on 20/04/2010 21:00:06
Originally by: Borza Slavak Edited by: Borza Slavak on 20/04/2010 17:18:44 How much do you think we really care about a bunch of the more cowardly industrialist capsuleers compared to the fates of innumerable slaves saved from servitude to expansionist Amarrian pilots? Our priorities differ from yours. Any concerned 'Matari' industrialists who wish to complain I'm sure will be welcome to a 1 isk price on their head, just like the traitor Midular.
I see you chose the typical route of attaching some negative adjectives to the affected group, dismiss their concerns as beneath you, and conclude they are "traitors". For a group that positions itself as antithetical to the CVA, you sure do seem to operate from their playbook a lot.
Oh the irony.
If that's too suBTLE for you;
I see you chose the typical route of avoiding my point (millions of slaves being more important than a handful of pilots) by instead concentrating on the derision I express towards slavers and their supporters. You also manage to interpret this post as somehow being evidence of a similarity to our nemesis, CVA. Pretty much par for the anti-Ushra'Khan playbook.
|
Xina Tutor
Amarr Black Arrows Sev3rance
|
Posted - 2010.04.20 22:03:00 -
[60]
CVA Space: You are free to travel, rat and mine unless you are red to CVA.
SF Space: You are free to travel, rat and mine unless you are red to, well, anybody, but mostly SF.
Indeed so very different.
And before we again have the cry of 'but the slaves' we still as yet have no independent report on the use and/or treatment of slaves in Providence, especially a comparison of pre/post CVA occupation.
And we never will have that independent view, only two very opposite idealogically biased viewpoints.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |