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Apostate Lucius
The Plebian Republic
12
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:17:00 -
[241] - Quote
Vellen Thoss wrote:
Empires rise and fall.
Even in Star Wars, the Empire had all the iskies, had all the death stars and people and millions of laser cannon fodder (TIE Fighters) but a rag tag group with probably less than 2 full fleets managed to take them down.
Just because CFC and TEST are populous and possess numerous assets, does not make them unstoppable.
Changing game mechanics is not the way to go. Let the people sort out their own problems.
Kinda how I raise my kids. For better or worse, this game is a pure sandbox and (ideally) CCP keeps their hand out of the gears as much as possible.
This isn't Star Wars. The economy of Star Wars never came into play, thus all the satire you see on YouTube concerning building Death Star Mk II. Quite frankly, had the Emperor used GSF tactics, the Rebellion would have been a cloud of discombobulated atoms free floating in space. Star Wars was for entertainment purposes only, not a How-To guide to fighting wars. Anyone who uses it as such...well...let's just say that I would have no pity for them as they got their ticket punched repeatedly.
I agree that GSF should NOT have anything taken from them that they already possess, it is their possessions, they did whatever they did to put it in their hangars and wallets, and ships. If CCP were to go and take the material and Isk made from it, they would be violating the spirit of Eve Online. Anyone who loves the game would fight against such an extreme action, no matter your loyalties or alliegances. Anyone who did not fight to stop something like that from happening would deserve to have it happen to them too.
That being said, I believe that Tech should be removed from the game, with nothing taking its place at all. As tinfoil-y as what the OP says really sounds, there are some valid points being made. The unadulterated amount of money, coupled with the combat doctrine and pure firepower that the GSF possesses would make dislodging them close to impossible on any timetable measured in less than years. It can be done, do not mistake what I am saying. The only expedient route would be an internal strife ending with the total dissolution of GSF and it's satellite corps/alliances. Otherwise, someone is going to have to want what they have more than they do.
I stand on the GSF's side of the line on this though. If CCP tried to take their money and material, that would be a violation of the game and the players. Quite frankly, OP, you should be ashamed to have even suggested that CCP take anything from them, let alone an amount that they might consider reasonable. The only reasonable amount is zero. Let Caesar never forget, though he may rule with the authority of the gods, he is allowed to rule by the whim of the people. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
336
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:21:00 -
[242] - Quote
fact is, income leven is the main driver for any corp or alliance. fact is that income driver on the most top level of eve is ****** an horrible disbalanced. im not saying it should be balanced 100% but i have to agree with the OP. this unhealty income situation is going to affect all of us as whole eve is connected in a hugh butterfly affect. add this upcomming devswarm public image and i can say for 100% guarantied that eve will not gain extra active players this year.... and i really wonder why that is... seems to me CCP has proven over and over they dont really care about the game and its growth or are stuck in this imaginairy fantasie game that only exist to shoot red crosses on the overview, anyhow.. bye CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS |
Lord Zim
1002
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:21:00 -
[243] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Goons' fault, duh. Sorry I didn't bother to read the posts. What crime are you goons confessing to now? All of them. |
SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
117
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:29:00 -
[244] - Quote
lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars
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Bolow Santosi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:29:00 -
[245] - Quote
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:fact is, income level is the main driver for any corp or alliance. fact is that income driver on the most top level of eve is ****** an horrible disbalanced. im not saying it should be balanced 100% but i have to agree with the OP. this unhealty income situation is going to affect all of us as whole eve is connected in a hugh butterfly affect. add this upcomming devswarm public image and i can say for 100% guarantied that eve will not gain extra active players this year.... and i really wonder why that is... seems to me CCP has proven over and over they dont really care about the game and its growth or are stuck in this imaginairy fantasie game that only exist to shoot red crosses on the overview, anyhow.. bye
You know I always wondered what's the renter income like down in the south? It's not insignificant. Maybe not quite as good as tech but it's still good. If only your leaders weren't wasting that income on poorly FC'd T3 fleets or personal super capitals, you quality of life down there might be better.
Just sayin
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
343
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:30:00 -
[246] - Quote
SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars
Not just HS Forum Warriors. -A- Forum warriors too. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
343
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:31:00 -
[247] - Quote
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote: add this upcomming devswarm public image and i can say for 100% guarantied that eve will not gain extra active players this year.... and i really wonder why that is...
Last available numbers, EvE's up more than 10k Subs from December. 361k in May vs 350k in December. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Jonah Gravenstein
588
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:48:00 -
[248] - Quote
SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars
I resemble that remark, but I'm firmly on the side of Goons on this one, they took it, they get to keep it, until such time that others can take it from them. Like I said in my earlier post, if people don't like the OTEC thingy then they should get off their collective backsides, find like minded others and actually try and take the tech away from its current controllers, instead they ask CCP to fix something that isn't broken. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Andrey Wartooth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
66
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:32:00 -
[249] - Quote
Apostate Lucius wrote:Anyone who loves the game would fight against such an extreme action, no matter your loyalties or allegiances.
This right here is the key sticking point. All these people who are demanding a tech nerf because they don't have any pretty much don't love eve.
Meanwhile, the people who do have Tech who have been demanding from the start that Tech needs to be fixed probably love eve and want to see it grow. |
Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness
177
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:36:00 -
[250] - Quote
SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud. |
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Andrey Wartooth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
66
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:40:00 -
[251] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud.
Income really doesn't win a war, dude. It can help, or make things easier, but you can win a war with a minimum of funds if you are smart.
But Goons started in the game with Supercaps and Tech Moons. They certainly didn't start with Rifters and a few friends. |
SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
117
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:49:00 -
[252] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud.
Tell us more about nullsec warfare, noted nullsec expert marlona sky.
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Marconus Orion
Massive PVPness
177
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Posted - 2012.07.10 02:27:00 -
[253] - Quote
Hahaha. Please keep coming with these replies. They are golden! |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
344
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Posted - 2012.07.10 02:52:00 -
[254] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:Hahaha. Please keep coming with these replies. They are golden!
So are you saying that they're right, or that you can't come up with new lies to try to counter their points? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Garreth Vlox
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.07.10 02:54:00 -
[255] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud.
I like how you downplay the importance of people actually logging in and getting in fleet and waiting for hours for a fight that never happens, and then log in the next day and do it all over again. Money is meaningless without a fleet to back it up. |
Andrey Wartooth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.07.10 02:57:00 -
[256] - Quote
Garreth Vlox wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud. I like how you downplay the importance of people actually logging in and getting in fleet and waiting for hours for a fight that never happens, and then log in the next day and do it all over again. Money is meaningless without a fleet to back it up.
It's true., fleets win fights. Isk has almost nothing to do with it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
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Posted - 2012.07.10 03:45:00 -
[257] - Quote
Andrey Wartooth wrote:Garreth Vlox wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud. I like how you downplay the importance of people actually logging in and getting in fleet and waiting for hours for a fight that never happens, and then log in the next day and do it all over again. Money is meaningless without a fleet to back it up. It's true., fleets win fights. Isk has almost nothing to do with it. But they're breaking our morale, what will our isk for for us then? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
538
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Posted - 2012.07.10 03:56:00 -
[258] - Quote
Marconus Orion wrote:SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud.
When was the last time a sov war was lost because one side had money problems?
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Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
344
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Posted - 2012.07.10 04:05:00 -
[259] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud. When was the last time a sov war was lost because one side had money problems?
Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems? -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1293
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Posted - 2012.07.10 04:11:00 -
[260] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:Marconus Orion wrote:SetrakDark wrote:lol hisec forum warriors still think income wins wars I like how you downplay how important money is when it comes to wars. Made me laugh out loud. When was the last time a sov war was lost because one side had money problems? Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems?
No, just an absentee directorate. a rogue goon |
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SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
119
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Posted - 2012.07.10 04:13:00 -
[261] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems?
Not having the ISK in the right wallet doesn't exactly qualify as an "income issue" in my mind.
:P
Quite literally I cannot think of one occasion in the three years I have followed nullsec wars where income played a role worth mentioning.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
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Posted - 2012.07.10 04:17:00 -
[262] - Quote
Richard Desturned wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems? No, just an absentee directorate. Never not forget to pay sov bills. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
344
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 04:19:00 -
[263] - Quote
SetrakDark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems? Not having the ISK in the right wallet doesn't exactly qualify as an "income issue" in my mind. :P Quite literally I cannot think of one occasion in the three years I have followed nullsec wars where income played a role worth mentioning.
Never said income problem, I said "Money Problem" Just happens to be a funny little sidenote showing that Goons are just as bad at the game as they claim. (and another, similar, sidenote where LAWN just has bad luck)
But yeah, I can't think of any occasion where a war was lost because the defense (or offense, for that matter) ran out of money either.
Ran out of will, Ran into someone with more people, Ran out of friends, sure. But never because they Ran out of money. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
SetrakDark
DarkCorp Capital Group DarkCorp Imperium
119
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Posted - 2012.07.10 04:27:00 -
[264] - Quote
Heck, just look at the current war in the South. The supposedly poor techless alliances are throwing away t3 fleets almost daily and losing, while the supposedly wealthy tech alliances are mainly using drakes and winning.
The closest example I can think of was actually in terms of smart resource and logistics use, where WN had an entire backup supercap fleet waiting to go in POS in the drone regions, which was pretty decisive in finally stemming the NC advances in Geminate and turning the tide of the war. That had nothing to do with an income disparity though, and everything to do with the DRF spending their income wisely while the NC pissed it away on stations, JBs, and jammers in every system.
Again, the entire idea is so laughably wrong based on verifiable nullsec warfare history that only someone as clueless as marlona sky would champion it. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 04:33:00 -
[265] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:But yeah, I can't think of any occasion where a war was lost because the defense (or offense, for that matter) ran out of money either.
Ran out of will, Ran into someone with more people, Ran out of friends, sure. But never because they Ran out of money. Yeah, it seems attrition war is based on chasing away their pets/renters and grinding their morale down until they don't undock or log in.
Speaking of not undocking though. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Abel Merkabah
TIMELINE Industries
42
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Posted - 2012.07.10 05:38:00 -
[266] - Quote
SetrakDark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems? Not having the ISK in the right wallet doesn't exactly qualify as an "income issue" in my mind. :P Quite literally I cannot think of one occasion in the three years I have followed nullsec wars where income played a role worth mentioning.
Doesn't this kind of point to a problem? That the resources of all these alliances are so vast that depletion of your opponents funds is not a viable strategy? Should wars be more destructive? Perhaps the ability to destroy stations and the stock piled contents stored with in.
I'll be honest, no experience with null, but I do intend to move to null when I can (helping RL friends in their corp first), so this is a legitimate question hoping for experienced players' opinions. "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." |
Pipa Porto
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
349
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Posted - 2012.07.10 05:41:00 -
[267] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote:SetrakDark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems? Not having the ISK in the right wallet doesn't exactly qualify as an "income issue" in my mind. :P Quite literally I cannot think of one occasion in the three years I have followed nullsec wars where income played a role worth mentioning. Doesn't this kind of point to a problem? That the resources of all these alliances are so vast that depletion of your opponents funds is not a viable strategy? Should wars be more destructive? Perhaps the ability to destroy stations and the stock piled contents stored with in. I'll be honest, no experience with null, but I do intend to move to null when I can (helping RL friends in their corp first), so this is a legitimate question hoping for experienced players' opinions.
Alliances with High Morale but no money win because their members do have money and are willing to spend it. It doesn't take much for an individual to be able to field Drakes to a Drakefleet. -RubyPorto
IB4TS |
Abel Merkabah
TIMELINE Industries
42
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Posted - 2012.07.10 05:53:00 -
[268] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Abel Merkabah wrote:SetrakDark wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Didn't the GSF lose Delve due to money problems? Not having the ISK in the right wallet doesn't exactly qualify as an "income issue" in my mind. :P Quite literally I cannot think of one occasion in the three years I have followed nullsec wars where income played a role worth mentioning. Doesn't this kind of point to a problem? That the resources of all these alliances are so vast that depletion of your opponents funds is not a viable strategy? Should wars be more destructive? Perhaps the ability to destroy stations and the stock piled contents stored with in. I'll be honest, no experience with null, but I do intend to move to null when I can (helping RL friends in their corp first), so this is a legitimate question hoping for experienced players' opinions. Alliances with High Morale but no money win because their members do have money and are willing to spend it. It doesn't take much for an individual to be able to field Drakes to a Drakefleet.
I can see the truth in that. I suppose if everyone is flying what they can afford to lose, it shouldn't be too hard to cover costs.
Kind of depressing though. In my mind I always pictured nullsec wars having drastic consequences. Although I suppose if your alliance would lose all sov, that would be a fairly drastic consequence. "The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vacuuming systems." |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
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Posted - 2012.07.10 06:10:00 -
[269] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Alliances with High Morale but no money win because their members do have money and are willing to spend it. It doesn't take much for an individual to be able to field Drakes to a Drakefleet. I can see the truth in that. I suppose if everyone is flying what they can afford to lose, it shouldn't be too hard to cover costs. Kind of depressing though. In my mind I always pictured nullsec wars having drastic consequences. Although I suppose if your alliance would lose all sov, that would be a fairly drastic consequence. Morale is the real resource. Clearly having isk sitting somewhere but no pilots is ...
But pilots can get ships if they don't have em. Right now, to replace the reimbursements we get, I think a drake is half an hour of work, and a scorpion is about an hour. A hound is like 15 minutes. A blackbird is a few minutes.
My scorpion went out once in Delve and shot a few cruise missiles at a SBU. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
139
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Posted - 2012.07.10 06:15:00 -
[270] - Quote
Abel Merkabah wrote: Doesn't this kind of point to a problem? That the resources of all these alliances are so vast that depletion of your opponents funds is not a viable strategy? Should wars be more destructive? Perhaps the ability to destroy stations and the stock piled contents stored with in.
I'll be honest, no experience with null, but I do intend to move to null when I can (helping RL friends in their corp first), so this is a legitimate question hoping for experienced players' opinions.
Rule one in Eve; Never fly what you can't afford to loose.
Two hours running anomalies/L4s will get you enough money for a well fit drake, a few assault frigates, lots of cruisers, or a huge pile of rifters. There is almost no way to interdict individual income streams, and as stated before, if morale remains high, people will log in and fight with their own money if they are motivated enough. "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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