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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
163
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Posted - 2012.07.11 07:35:00 -
[91] - Quote
Torps work fine.....on big ships, or webbed down BCs with their mwd.
Believe it or not, this is much like large turrets. If you have ever tried to use 800mm repeaters or any large pile on smaller hulls its generally a pain unsupported.
The T2 penalties are bullshit, but the DPS delay is the reason you don't see more BS sized missile. You can warp a fleet out before a slow ass cruise missile crosses 80km. |
Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
11
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Posted - 2012.07.11 07:44:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote: The 'phoon is fine, just that you can't use Torpedoes on it. It is a design flaw of Torpedoes rather than the ship.
What? It uses them just fine if you fit a painter. Torpedoes are why it's so awesome after all. Shortrange yes, but it is a good shortrange BS. It does great DPS to any BS or BC.
Rage torps are only situationally useful, even with painter, though.
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Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
283
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Posted - 2012.07.11 07:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
Yoshite McLulzypants wrote:jesus **** boys just use faction ammo like everyone else and stop crying.
I think this post pretty much summed up T2 Missiles.
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
163
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Posted - 2012.07.11 08:06:00 -
[94] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Yoshite McLulzypants wrote:jesus **** boys just use faction ammo like everyone else and stop crying. I think this post pretty much summed up T2 Missiles.
Indeed.
To be fair it was pretty much all T2 ammo sans scortch and barrage till recently. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
543
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Posted - 2012.07.11 08:29:00 -
[95] - Quote
I use Fury HMLs and Rage rockets. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
201
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Posted - 2012.07.11 14:52:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote: The 'phoon is fine, just that you can't use Torpedoes on it. It is a design flaw of Torpedoes rather than the ship. You can only use Torpedoes on ships designed for it, rest have to use Cruise Missiles.
So yeah, in addition to the stupid ship penalties on T2 ammo, there is some staggering design problems with "Large" Missiles.
Torps are fine, just that the phoon isn't very good with them (even though it totally is). When you say "ships designed to use them" you're undoubtedly referring to the raven hulls and the stealth bombers, and I'm guessing that the ships that aren't "designed" to use them are the phoon and the...RF phoon? That sounds like a problem with those ships rather than the weapons in question, assuming there is in fact a problem (there isn't).
It's probably also worth noting that the drawbacks aren't that big a deal with the phoon anyway, you're in a BS so your sig radius is already huge, and while a phoon loading jav torps will, for example, be slower than a megathron (800m/s vs 900 with a MWD running, assuming 2 plates and 3 trimarks) it's also faster than the mega with anything else loaded (990 vs 900) and I don't see mega pilots complaining about it.
Mfume Apocal wrote:I use Fury HMLs and Rage rockets. And I go out of my way to ensure my stealth bombers have t2 launchers because of how useful t2 torps have proven to be on roams. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
167
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Posted - 2012.07.12 00:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:
A more eloquent balancing solution would be to remove all "ship based" penalties from T2 missiles. {FULL STOP}
Then, if you still think T2 missiles are too good and/or out of balance tinker with their range, explosion velocity or explosion radius. Keeping punishing ship based penalties on one class of weapon system is not balanced and nothing you have said refutes that.
That's all that really needs to be said about this, honestly. Ship based penalties make zero sense for ammunition. Although, to be completely frank, the damage formulas in this game are pretty abysmal no matter which way you slice it so they're what needs fixing first. Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
12
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Posted - 2012.07.13 07:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:What's with the rather severe penalties applied to T2 Missiles? There is no penalty on T2 Turret ammo. Hardly seems fair.
The penalties are there so you don't stick with one cookie-cutter ammo. Missiles are fine - well, Fury are, Precisions are usually replaced by T1 or faction ammo instead.
Cambarus wrote:[quote=Tor Gungnir]When you say "ships designed to use them" you're undoubtedly referring to the raven hulls
Tbh, the only raven hull "designed for torpedoes" is the marauder, Golem. Using them on CNR is a big no-no, while a normal raven with torps is passable, but usually only used in pvp. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
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Posted - 2012.07.13 10:49:00 -
[99] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Tbh, the only raven hull "designed for torpedoes" is the marauder, Golem. Using them on CNR is a big no-no, while a normal raven with torps is passable, but usually only used in pvp.
Tor Gungnir wrote:
There is a problem. Not everyone flies Golems or Stealth Bombers than can sit and pretty much fire Torpedoes the same range they do Cruise Missiles. Some ships actually have to get into brawler range to use them.
He was complaining that he has to get in brawler range while having a speed penalty from his t2 torps, it's the whole reason he started this thread.
Why he'd be getting into brawler range with javelin torps is beyond me, but whatever. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
166
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Posted - 2012.07.13 11:33:00 -
[100] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote: Tbh, the only raven hull "designed for torpedoes" is the marauder, Golem. Using them on CNR is a big no-no, while a normal raven with torps is passable, but usually only used in structure grinds.
Fixed that for you.
I've only ever seen Ravens outside hisec for POS bashes. |
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Annabell Ood
Ood Mineral Resources Management
3
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Posted - 2012.07.13 13:56:00 -
[101] - Quote
@OP while I do understand your point of view and follow the validity of your arguments, I believe that you fail to consider just how OP a missle weapon system is.
The simple fact is that a low SP character can WAY out perform his/her equals in both mission running and pvp simply because they chose missles over turrets is in its self unbalanced. So yes, i believe that the T2 missile penalty is unfair compare to T2 turrets --- it is not unfair when you compair missile systems Vs turret systems.
T1 needs a BIG nerf, then buff T2 |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
296
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Posted - 2012.07.13 14:11:00 -
[102] - Quote
Annabell Ood wrote:@OP while I do understand your point of view and follow the validity of your arguments, I believe that you fail to consider just how OP a missle weapon system is.
The simple fact is that a low SP character can WAY out perform his/her equals in both mission running and pvp simply because they chose missles over turrets is in its self unbalanced. So yes, i believe that the T2 missile penalty is unfair compare to T2 turrets --- it is not unfair when you compair missile systems Vs turret systems.
T1 needs a BIG nerf, then buff T2
You think Cruise Missiles/Torpedoes are way better than Large Turrets?
I'm pretty sure you just mean Heavies/HAMs, not the entire weapon system.
If so, I'll agree with you on the fact that nerfing T2 missiles is not a good way to balance it. Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Annabell Ood
Ood Mineral Resources Management
3
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Posted - 2012.07.13 14:51:00 -
[103] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote: You think Cruise Missiles/Torpedoes are way better than Large Turrets?
I'm pretty sure you just mean Heavies/HAMs, not the entire weapon system.
If so, I'll agree with you on the fact that nerfing T2 missiles is not a good way to balance it.
Just to clarify...... you think T1 cruise missiles and Torps are not way better then T1 large Turrets? especially for a low SP character? |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
14
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Posted - 2012.07.13 15:14:00 -
[104] - Quote
Annabell Ood wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote: You think Cruise Missiles/Torpedoes are way better than Large Turrets?
I'm pretty sure you just mean Heavies/HAMs, not the entire weapon system.
If so, I'll agree with you on the fact that nerfing T2 missiles is not a good way to balance it.
Just to clarify...... you think T1 cruise missiles and Torps are not way better then T1 large Turrets? especially for a low SP character?
While there is validity there, I would like to note that most pple will be up to T2 in their respective systems within 2 months. Even low SP characters, as weapon systems is often one of the first things they train up. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
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Posted - 2012.07.13 15:59:00 -
[105] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:Annabell Ood wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote: You think Cruise Missiles/Torpedoes are way better than Large Turrets?
I'm pretty sure you just mean Heavies/HAMs, not the entire weapon system.
If so, I'll agree with you on the fact that nerfing T2 missiles is not a good way to balance it.
Just to clarify...... you think T1 cruise missiles and Torps are not way better then T1 large Turrets? especially for a low SP character? While there is validity there, I would like to note that most pple will be up to T2 in their respective systems within 2 months. Even low SP characters, as weapon systems is often one of the first things they train up. Since when? T2 large guns take a month or so to train on their own, and most new people don't think of that as a short amount of time, and the most of the newbs I've known over the years are more interested in their next ship than getting t2 guns/missiles. |
Annabell Ood
Ood Mineral Resources Management
3
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Posted - 2012.07.13 21:33:00 -
[106] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
While there is validity there, I would like to note that most pple will be up to T2 in their respective systems within 2 months. Even low SP characters, as weapon systems is often one of the first things they train up.
This is what I ran into on both my mission running / FW alts (one amarr and one caldari). Think about it this way---- 3 months of running level 3 missions instead of running level 2s (Isk, LP, and all the goodies). and because of range/speed tank > armor tank= my amarr pilot need months to be able to pull off what my caldari could do easly.
with turrets T2 is a huge upgrade over T1, but with missiles its kind of bleh. It is why I can completely understand the view point from the OP. I just believe that saddly, T1 missiles are soooooooo stupidly OP compaired to T1 turrets. There isn't such a big upgrade for missiles between tech levels.
as for pvp- the caracal is a beast (dual prop FTW!!!) and you can be low SP all T1. There is no T1 laser cruiser that can claim to be its equal in pvp.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
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Posted - 2012.07.13 22:46:00 -
[107] - Quote
The OP was whining about torps, tbh cruise missiles as a whole need a rework from the ground up, as they're kind of terribad. |
Annabell Ood
Ood Mineral Resources Management
3
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Posted - 2012.07.13 22:57:00 -
[108] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:The OP was whining about torps, tbh cruise missiles as a whole need a rework from the ground up, as they're kind of terribad.
in your experience my friend, do you feel T1 Large Turrets outperform T1 torps and Cmissiles? |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
205
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Posted - 2012.07.13 23:44:00 -
[109] - Quote
Annabell Ood wrote:Cambarus wrote:The OP was whining about torps, tbh cruise missiles as a whole need a rework from the ground up, as they're kind of terribad. in your experience my friend, do you feel T1 Large Turrets outperform T1 torps and Cmissiles? T1 cruises? Nah. Torps? I wouldn't undock in a ship with t1 torps, even if I rolled a new character. Javelins are just too useful not to have. And the close range weapons are pretty much on par with each other IMO, I wouldn't rush to take a t1 torp boat over a t1 blaster, AC or pulse ship, or the other way around, especially since torps need much more sp behind them to work well than cruises do. |
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