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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Vyl Vit
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:07:00 -
[1]
The Dynamics of Cogent Game Design (Or how not to be the object of ridicule)
There you are, having worked for weeks (months!) to earn standings enough to mission for a high-quality agent. You've studied the star map to find a location. You've faithfully executed a series of lower-level missions for hours on end just to earn the right to begin missions of gravity and import. You've worked hard to earn the ISK to obtain a ship worthy of the task. You've spent weeks ôstudyingö to acquire the skills needed. You've sharpened your abilities to not only survive the mission but to actually accomplish it. You request the mission, and endure the high-handed personal guff of the agent who obstensively doubts your abilities, but who reluctantly gives you the mission anyway, as though giving away part of the faction treasury. You pilot your ship to the mission site, access the acceleration gate, and what do you find has followed you in? A two-month player in a Probe with two salvagers who begins salvaging your mission. What can you do about it? Nothing.
You have no recourse but to sit and watch as this person takes away the better part of the value of the mission you had to earn your way into. You have to watch as salvage items needed to manufacture the products you'd hoped to market are blithely slipped into this loathesome person's cargo hold. This player wasn't given access to the mission site by any agent he had to earn standings with. He risks nothing. He invests nothing, but he has free access to a mission site you had to invest time and effort to obtain. But, I don't blame that player. No. When I see this happen time and again my thoughts immediately turn to the game design û and therefore the designers.
Not only is this unfair and unjust to the player whose mission it is. It is also a huge hole in EVE that makes the game designers objects of ridicule for having left such a glaring contradiction in dynamics, and it makes the entire process of ôstandingsö with an agent farcical. No cogent intelligent system contradicts itself or opens itself up to ridicule. This, my friends, is ridiculous. However, it's so easily remedied one has to marvel at what the developers intentions must be. These can't be to create a gaming environment that sets a standard on the scale of - say û a game like chess, where the game is so tightly designed there are no points of imbalance or farce.
All one need do is make all missions accessible through acceleration gates only the holder of the mission and those fleeted with that player can access. It's not even difficult in terms of coding. Can't the developers see how preposterous it is, and how foolish they look when you are in a ôprivateö instance and see there with you some ôpirateö who's followed you in? It's like buying a bucket, taking it home, filling it with water and finding it leaks. Have they no sense of craftsmanship? Not only are computer games creations of programming language using the marvels of micro-electronics. They also must be judged in terms of what a ôgood gameö is in the traditional sense. A good game is tight, cogent and without loopholes allowing players to circumvent the dynamics of the game. Here, EVE fails.
The solution is so simple, one can only hope the digital-aristocratic enclave of designers at CCP put a fledgling programmer to work rectifying this leak in their bucket. It's beginning to be difficult to mumble apologies to new players for what is obviously a fundamental flaw in someone's thinking that draws the integrity and quality of the game into question. ôConvert your trial account into a paying one. This doesn't happen that often!ö Uh huh.
By the way, this isn't offered as a suggestion. It's a demand from a paying customer. Show me you know how to do your job. Tighten this up, or understand the loss of respect you've earned.
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Lee Dalton
RUSSIAN PRIDE POWER HONOUR JUSTICE Perihelion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:10:00 -
[2]
Reading GD is like watching reruns of your favourite trolls. *** I AM A RUS HON SUPERSTAR |
AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:10:00 -
[3]
1/10
0/10 for theme, but +1 for all dem big words.
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Nelindor1
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:13:00 -
[4]
definately NOT reading that. But, reading the Title, i assume it is an emo rant about ninja looters and salvagers..
"Ninja-looting" and "Ninja Salvaging" are 2 "jobs" or "occupations" in eve just like missions, trading, pvp, mining, etc. Don't like it? go mission in a system less popular or don't mission.
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Tobias Xiaosen
Total Xenophobia Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:16:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Tobias Xiaosen on 24/04/2010 23:25:55 Edited by: Tobias Xiaosen on 24/04/2010 23:18:37
Originally by: vile zit
BLAHBLAHBALH
YOU! SHADDUP!
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) ~ CURRENT INTERNETS = + 129102 |
Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:18:00 -
[6]
Reading from bottom to top can save time.
Quote: It's a demand from a paying customer. Show me you know how to do your job. Tighten this up, or understand the loss of respect you've earned.
Pretty bad troll. Or pretty dumb person.
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jona1
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:20:00 -
[7]
Prob a ninja alt trying to look important making another thread/trollin on such a fail subject,if not well then OP grow a pair or look for a new game.
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Nelindor1
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tobias Xiaosen Edited by: Tobias Xiaosen on 24/04/2010 23:18:37
Originally by: vyl vit
BLAHBLAHBALH
YOU! SHADDUP!
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
This.
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Crazy Cop
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:25:00 -
[9]
Damn, do i wish to ninja salvage this guy.
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:44:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tobias Xiaosen Edited by: Tobias Xiaosen on 24/04/2010 23:25:55 Edited by: Tobias Xiaosen on 24/04/2010 23:18:37
Originally by: vile zit
BLAHBLAHBALH
YOU! SHADDUP!
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
THIS renders all answers superfluous, including mine (kinda recursive)
To say it differently,
/thread ________________________
Store | Apply |
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Orion Cor
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:52:00 -
[11]
Solution to Ninja-Salvaging: carry both a tractor and a salvager on your mission ship and clean up after yourself.
Solution to Ninja-Looting: bring a corpmate to take advantage of the 15-minute aggro the looter earns. ______________________________ "Irpom ignopom ifosis."
~Me, 1992 |
Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nika Dekaia RPretty bad troll. Or pretty dumb person.
It is quite outstanding troll
Used a lot of big words and even managed to avoid a wall of text.
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Arabeth
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Posted - 2010.04.24 23:54:00 -
[13]
Low sec. 'nuff said.
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Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.04.25 00:06:00 -
[14]
Fight back.
I love ninja's. The only problem is I can't get them to show up in my missions. I even use to sit in a mission with the MWD on a Proteus up and running so I had a 960 Sig Radius and still no ninja's. It made me cry, no love, no kills.
Ok, sure your complaining about people salvaging and not looters. Still, let it go. As some people have posted above me CCP has stated that they want anyone to be able to salvage. If you don't want people salvaging "your" wreaks you have 5 choices.
1) Get a second account had have it follow you around salvaging.
2) Fly a Marauder and salvage as you go.
3) Fly a T3 ship set up to so it can not be probed out, if they can't scan your ship they can't get to your site and salvage.
4) Move to another agent that is not in a major Mission Hub. The the system where I have been running missions for for the past 2.5 years is not a mission hub. I have never been scanned down by anyone running missions there.
5) Let it go.
There are still a few more things you can do but these are the simplest choices. You have to remember just because you feel there is a problem does not mean there is a problem. Pick from an option above and move on.
My CSM Election Announcement
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Dennmoth Ferdier
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Posted - 2010.04.25 00:06:00 -
[15]
As one of the few ppl that actually bothered to read the OP through, I'll comment that you make it sound like it was a bug, a glitch, an exploit or an oversight of a game mechanic, while in fact it has been very much intentionally coded to do exactly what you're petitioning against.
The fact that you want eve to become more like Hello Kitty online, doesnt mean we all want it to be so, and that included the developers who exactly combat your train of thought.
If this does not convince you, take a moment to read the quotes few posts above me detailing the developement team statements on the matter. ------ Dare to challenge me? |
Lexx Khadar
Minmatar HellForge. Lucky Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.04.25 00:08:00 -
[16]
Bad trolling OP. I like to shoot the wrecks when a ninja salvager enters my missions. As a paying customer you have no right to make demands like this. You have very little rights if you read the EULA.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.04.25 00:34:00 -
[17]
10/10 for effort.
Your attempt to be subtle by making ninja salvagers look like a game design flaw was good, but ultimately you were too focused on the whine, so you were transparent. I'd give it 2/10 on subtlety for the intention, try to work on the execution.
The suggestion that missions should only be accessible to mission runners and their friends was a nice thing to slip in - had the troll been successful, no doubt this would have caused a nice little sidetrack despite being off your own topic.
Remove the personal grievance aspect (try taking on the role of a ninja salvager rather than a mission runner to obscure any personal agenda), and focus less on the whine at the core - hide it good and deep behind the game design commentary. The idea is to get people to agree with you and then realise the implications to cause cognitive dissonance, not to actually argue a point (since you have none).
Combining the creativity and effort with the fact that a few people felt the need to respond with dev quotes, I'll give you 5/10. -
Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know! |
Ai Mei
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Posted - 2010.04.25 00:41:00 -
[18]
I dont have people steal from my missions. But I think thats because the last time someone did that they lost their vexor came back and then proceeded to lose their nice neut domini with lots of trimarks to a couple of tech 3's and a pvp fitted phoon waiting for him.
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Atticus Fynch
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Posted - 2010.04.25 00:47:00 -
[19]
Interesting post, but let me add by saying:
To be or not to beû that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles And, by opposing, end them. To die, to sleep No more û and by a sleep to say we end The heartache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to û ætis a consummation Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep To sleep, perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death what dreams may come, When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes calamity of so long life. For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, ThÆ oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely, The pangs of despised love, the law's delay, The insolence of office, and the spurns That patient merit of thÆ unworthy takes, When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscovered country from whose bourn No traveler returns, puzzles the will And makes us rather bear those ills we have Than fly to others that we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all, And thus the native hue of resolution Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought, And enterprises of great pitch and moment With this regard their currents turn awry, And lose the name of action.ùSoft you now! The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons Be all my sins remembered
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FunzzeR
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2010.04.25 01:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vyl Vit The Dynamics of Cogent Game Design (Or how not to be the object of ridicule)
There you are, having worked for weeks (months!) to earn standings enough to mission for a high-quality agent. You've studied the star map to find a location. You've faithfully executed a series of lower-level missions for hours on end just to earn the right to begin missions of gravity and import. You've worked hard to earn the ISK to obtain a ship worthy of the task. You've spent weeks ôstudyingö to acquire the skills needed. You've sharpened your abilities to not only survive the mission but to actually accomplish it. You request the mission, and endure the high-handed personal guff of the agent who obstensively doubts your abilities, but who reluctantly gives you the mission anyway, as though giving away part of the faction treasury. You pilot your ship to the mission site, access the acceleration gate, and what do you find has followed you in? A two-month player in a Probe with two salvagers who begins salvaging your mission. What can you do about it? Nothing.
You have no recourse but to sit and watch as this person takes away the better part of the value of the mission you had to earn your way into. You have to watch as salvage items needed to manufacture the products you'd hoped to market are blithely slipped into this loathesome person's cargo hold. This player wasn't given access to the mission site by any agent he had to earn standings with. He risks nothing. He invests nothing, but he has free access to a mission site you had to invest time and effort to obtain. But, I don't blame that player. No. When I see this happen time and again my thoughts immediately turn to the game design û and therefore the designers.
Not only is this unfair and unjust to the player whose mission it is. It is also a huge hole in EVE that makes the game designers objects of ridicule for having left such a glaring contradiction in dynamics, and it makes the entire process of ôstandingsö with an agent farcical. No cogent intelligent system contradicts itself or opens itself up to ridicule. This, my friends, is ridiculous. However, it's so easily remedied one has to marvel at what the developers intentions must be. These can't be to create a gaming environment that sets a standard on the scale of - say û a game like chess, where the game is so tightly designed there are no points of imbalance or farce.
All one need do is make all missions accessible through acceleration gates only the holder of the mission and those fleeted with that player can access. It's not even difficult in terms of coding. Can't the developers see how preposterous it is, and how foolish they look when you are in a ôprivateö instance and see there with you some ôpirateö who's followed you in? It's like buying a bucket, taking it home, filling it with water and finding it leaks. Have they no sense of craftsmanship? Not only are computer games creations of programming language using the marvels of micro-electronics. They also must be judged in terms of what a ôgood gameö is in the traditional sense. A good game is tight, cogent and without loopholes allowing players to circumvent the dynamics of the game. Here, EVE fails.
The solution is so simple, one can only hope the digital-aristocratic enclave of designers at CCP put a fledgling programmer to work rectifying this leak in their bucket. It's beginning to be difficult to mumble apologies to new players for what is obviously a fundamental flaw in someone's thinking that draws the integrity and quality of the game into question. ôConvert your trial account into a paying one. This doesn't happen that often!ö Uh huh.
By the way, this isn't offered as a suggestion. It's a demand from a paying customer. Show me you know how to do your job. Tighten this up, or understand the loss of respect you've earned.
tl;dr PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!!
THEIR WILL SHALL BE DONE!! |
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Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.04.25 01:40:00 -
[21]
Ninja salvagers are scrubs for sure, but to cry about them is even worse. To make a billionth troll post regarding them is utterly pathetic. ~_~
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Tejal Charu
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Posted - 2010.04.25 01:45:00 -
[22]
Salvaged were Original Poster's wrecks, yes. Very angry he is, hmmmmmm yesssss... |
Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.04.25 02:19:00 -
[23]
anybody actually read all the mumbo jumbo
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Atticus Fynch
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Posted - 2010.04.25 02:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Atticus Fynch on 25/04/2010 02:32:07
Originally by: Psychotic Maniac anybody actually read all the mumbo jumbo
I get as far as "to be or not to be..." then I lose interest. But as to the OP:
Wrecks are like asteroids...just because you shoot it, doesn't mean you own it.
I don't see what your gripe is though. Most serious manufactures that use salvaged parts buy them off the market. Most serious salvagers sell their stuff on the market instead of manufacturing for the simple reason that you need to salvage about a zillion wrecks in order to have enough of anything to manufacture something decent.
There are many things I wish this game would allow, but you bought the sub as is...not as you wish it to be.
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.04.25 02:51:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 25/04/2010 02:53:05 Did it just get dark in here......oh geez! Look at the wall of text. It blots out the sun.
Dude, I sympathize with you. Can I have your stuff?
No really I do sympathize but, unless you're actually willing to shoot the looters, do more than just mission then there's really no use crying about it (/me collects tears into elixir of sorrow).
However, I think I understand your meaning. You're considering all ninja's "looters" hence you can't shoot some of them. Under the current game mechanics there are ninja salvagers (legal) and ninja looters (fire at will). The latter you can shoot. But if, as I suspect, you're like 90% of the missioners out there, even when you have aggro you refuse to engage the looters. As a ninja, I risk being shot by you when I steal your stuff right in front of you. And by steal I mean steal those nice juicy meta 4's not just salvage. I give missioners every opportunity to shoot me. And still most don't. When they do and I come back in a PVP fit BC or BS, they're still missioning away as if they haven't a care in the world. CCP can't fix stupid.
If ninjas bother you that much then go to low and nullsec. I explored some regions of low/null sec a few weeks ago. And I can tell you, there just isn't enough traffic down there to keep me busy ninjaing. Likewise, I doubt you'll find any ninjas there except for the rare, very rare occasion. But, you'd never do that, would you?
No, you don't want a ninja free mission site. They're out there but you refuse to go there. What you want is a completely isolated means to make isk, a personal isk faucet, that in no way inconveniences you.
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Rogev
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Posted - 2010.04.25 02:52:00 -
[26]
I just can't understand post after post after post of people whining about ninja salvagers. I'm a hardcore mission runner and the only time I run in to a ninja is if somehow I stray in to a mission hub. At those times I usually find they're also stealing wrecks and talking smack about me in local.
What do I do about it? Nothing. I just pretend like I don't notice and go about my business. Then they usually move on to someone else (you) who's going to get bent out of shape and whine about it on the forums.
If ninja salvagers are bothering you, you're doing it wrong. |
Rayahammer
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Posted - 2010.04.25 02:53:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ashina Sito Fight back.
I love ninja's. The only problem is I can't get them to show up in my missions. I even use to sit in a mission with the MWD on a Proteus up and running so I had a 960 Sig Radius and still no ninja's. It made me cry, no love, no kills.
Ok, sure your complaining about people salvaging and not looters. Still, let it go. As some people have posted above me CCP has stated that they want anyone to be able to salvage. If you don't want people salvaging "your" wreaks you have 5 choices.
1) Get a second account had have it follow you around salvaging.
2) Fly a Marauder and salvage as you go.
3) Fly a T3 ship set up to so it can not be probed out, if they can't scan your ship they can't get to your site and salvage.
4) Move to another agent that is not in a major Mission Hub. The the system where I have been running missions for for the past 2.5 years is not a mission hub. I have never been scanned down by anyone running missions there.
5) Let it go.
There are still a few more things you can do but these are the simplest choices. You have to remember just because you feel there is a problem does not mean there is a problem. Pick from an option above and move on.
You mwd often in deadspace? Or do you just run the blockade?
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Rogev
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Posted - 2010.04.25 03:03:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Rogev on 25/04/2010 03:04:06
Originally by: Mr Kidd Edited by: Mr Kidd on 25/04/2010 02:53:05 Did it just get dark in here......oh geez! Look at the wall of text. It blots out the sun.
Dude, I sympathize with you. Can I have your stuff?
No really I do sympathize but, unless you're actually willing to shoot the looters, do more than just mission then there's really no use crying about it (/me collects tears into elixir of sorrow).
However, I think I understand your meaning. You're considering all ninja's "looters" hence you can't shoot some of them. Under the current game mechanics there are ninja salvagers (legal) and ninja looters (fire at will). The latter you can shoot. But if, as I suspect, you're like 90% of the missioners out there, even when you have aggro you refuse to engage the looters. As a ninja, I risk being shot by you when I steal your stuff right in front of you. And by steal I mean steal those nice juicy meta 4's not just salvage. I give missioners every opportunity to shoot me. And still most don't. When they do and I come back in a PVP fit BC or BS, they're still missioning away as if they haven't a care in the world. CCP can't fix stupid.
If ninjas bother you that much then go to low and nullsec. I explored some regions of low/null sec a few weeks ago. And I can tell you, there just isn't enough traffic down there to keep me busy ninjaing. Likewise, I doubt you'll find any ninjas there except for the rare, very rare occasion. But, you'd never do that, would you?
No, you don't want a ninja free mission site. They're out there but you refuse to go there. What you want is a completely isolated means to make isk, a personal isk faucet, that in no way inconveniences you.
Mr Kidd I think I was that guy. (The one that didn't shoot)
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.04.25 03:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tobias Xiaosen Edited by: Tobias Xiaosen on 24/04/2010 23:25:55 Edited by: Tobias Xiaosen on 24/04/2010 23:18:37
Originally by: vile zit
BLAHBLAHBALH
YOU! SHADDUP!
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Question asked.
Question answered with extreme prejudice.
You can lock it now.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
Originally by: Amarr Supremacist Yeah, it(Jaguar) almost has cruiser level tank and gank!
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Rayahammer
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Posted - 2010.04.25 03:25:00 -
[30]
And why is it called ninja salvage if there is no risk involved at all?
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.04.25 03:39:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Rayahammer And why is it called ninja salvage if there is no risk involved at all?
Sigh... The term ninja salvagers is wrong indeed, JAWA's would be a way better description for them. Garbage collectors would be nice too.
About the risk there is plenty, Jawa probes out mission runner, jumps in and OOPS, finds himself in recon 3 Jawa happily works his way through the space garbage while the mission runner is still occupied with many rats. Jawa doesn't pay attention for one moment and mission runner runs out, OOPS now the Jawa has agro from the rats. And there are a few other moments i can think off but I'm too lazy atm.
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cBOLTSON
Caldari Shadow Legion. Talos Coalition
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Posted - 2010.04.25 03:46:00 -
[32]
Ok ok we have established that 'ninja salvaging' ****ed a lot of people of. We have also established that this is a valid game tactic by CCP.
Solutions - 1. Bring a salvage alt 2. Bring salvage friends 3. Let the ninja salvager make his way to a nice wreck and just before he gets there, pop the wreck! 4. Bring noob alt with web n scram, get him in position next to ninja salvager and warp ur main outta the mission in hope that the rats aggro the ninja salvager, web n scram him with ur noob alt and hope he gets poped by rats? 5. Fleet/convo them and ask if they want to salvage away for you and that you would be glad for them to do it! LEt them think they are safe salvaging away, then warp off hoping they are not paying attention. (You could also say he can have ur loot, hope he takes it then pop him without any concord action)
anyone have any other ideas?
TLDR - USE YOUR IMAGINATION! =]
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Captain Charismatic
Minmatar Honorless Internet Jerks
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:02:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Captain Charismatic on 25/04/2010 05:04:06 Man, I'm drowning in tears! This is like getting cake for nothing! Keep posting, it's absolutely delicious. :) From a ninja - please keep making me laugh. GG.
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Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:04:00 -
[34]
Confirming that I am an evil little jawa. Gimme your loots! NATI. |
Griff McGriffin
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:24:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Griff McGriffin on 25/04/2010 05:29:15 My heart. It bleeds.
You make it sound like carebearing is... almost Difficult.
Also as far as investment goes: Cov-ops, rigs, sisters probes + launcher Astrometrics, Astrometric pinpointing, rangefinding and aquistion. Refining skills to turn your junk into my minerals. Fully fit mission capable bounty stealing/Mission tanking Battleship. Fully fit PvP battleship Infinate Frigates. Salvage ship Rigged industrial for taking all my loot to market to turn into ISK for me.
Not to mention actually learning to scan, evade, tank and fight.
Dont try and take the 'hard earned' line. Stick with: Ctrl-click, F1.
Edit: Forgot the optional orca.
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lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:27:00 -
[36]
+1 for wall of text +1 for responses +1 for self righteousness
-1 for unoriginal topic (leave the dead horse alone) -1 suggesting a 'solution' to a perceived problem -1 for not understanding how the game works before signing up (lol idiot)
overall score: 0/10
Try again.
Originally by: salva dore Cloak should not be AFK solution. What do you think?
Originally by: AFK Cloaker
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:34:00 -
[37]
I like "Jawa". Do you mind if I use it? Could be the name of a corp...
... hire me! |
shoopdeeeloop
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:36:00 -
[38]
Forgot teh Orca. Ninja-ing is nothing without teh Orca. :)
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Kariva
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:37:00 -
[39]
+1 Earning 20mil/h from salvage by ninja is ballanced...
Earning 5mil/h from salvage reprocess (t1 items) is unballanced so it will be changed next patch.
LOGIC...... CCP sux...
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Captain Charismatic
Minmatar Honorless Internet Jerks
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: shoopdeeeloop Forgot teh Orca. Ninja-ing is nothing without teh Orca. :)
I loves it when I accidentally post as an alt I never use.
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:45:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker I like "Jawa". Do you mind if I use it? Could be the name of a corp...
By all means.
You do realize where the name originates from, yes?
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2010.04.25 05:50:00 -
[42]
People still do that ninja stuff?
I guess it's for the tears, because it sure can't be for the isk. Salvage is next to worthless since the rig change.
What a waste of time to train up an alt for such a pointless profession. But whatever spins your wheel, I suppose. It is a sandbox and people can do any waste of time thing they like.
While I don't think the profession should be nerfed in any way, I think the pilots still doing it are just not that smart. Much like the majority of the mission runners they annoy.
But since it keeps a good chunk of the EVE population busy doing Sweet F A, I get to do the things that make the game interesting and myself rich without much interference. I'm down with that. Don't change a thing.
Mr Epeen
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Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.04.25 06:05:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Zavulon Sukkot on 25/04/2010 06:05:58
Originally by: Mr Epeen People still do that ninja stuff?
I guess it's for the tears, because it sure can't be for the isk. Salvage is next to worthless since the rig change.
:words:
Mr Epeen
Rig dealer spotted. The rigs are where the salvage money is made folks. Keep that in mind :) NATI. |
Captain Charismatic
Minmatar Honorless Internet Jerks
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Posted - 2010.04.25 06:10:00 -
[44]
Rig dealer spotted. The rigs are where the salvage money is made folks. Keep that in mind :)
Aye on that one. :)But honestly, I don't ninja for the ISK as much as the fun / tears.
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Dian'h Might
Minmatar Cash and Cargo Liberators Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.04.25 06:13:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Crumplecorn 10/10 for effort.
Your attempt to be subtle by making ninja salvagers look like a game design flaw was good, but ultimately you were too focused on the whine, so you were transparent. I'd give it 2/10 on subtlety for the intention, try to work on the execution.
The suggestion that missions should only be accessible to mission runners and their friends was a nice thing to slip in - had the troll been successful, no doubt this would have caused a nice little sidetrack despite being off your own topic.
Remove the personal grievance aspect (try taking on the role of a ninja salvager rather than a mission runner to obscure any personal agenda), and focus less on the whine at the core - hide it good and deep behind the game design commentary. The idea is to get people to agree with you and then realise the implications to cause cognitive dissonance, not to actually argue a point (since you have none).
Combining the creativity and effort with the fact that a few people felt the need to respond with dev quotes, I'll give you 5/10.
9/10 on the commentary
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Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.04.25 07:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Rayahammer
You mwd often in deadspace? Or do you just run the blockade?
Seripents Extravaganza. There are a few missions out there where you can use MWD's in them. I had thought that the MWD would help. I could get a +90% hit with combat probes at 4au with an alt with Astrometric's I and no other skills on the MWDing Proteus. Nether the Proteus or the Navy Domi drew the flies in, I cried. Although I got the CEO of Suddenly Ninja's with an AB Navy Domi.
My CSM Election Announcement
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sister jade
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Posted - 2010.04.25 10:34:00 -
[47]
tears of anger :D
more like a flood of literary shiptoasting I once had a handle on life..
then the handle broke |
Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
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Posted - 2010.04.25 11:13:00 -
[48]
Wait, people are still bothered about salvage after it's been proven that the majority of a missions value is in bounties and agent rewards as salvaging in anything other than a marauder is a waste of time, and also after the market crash in salvaged parts that the recent trit-hitting-rock-bottom even has had?
Ehluh Oh Ehluh!
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Johan Sabbat
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.04.25 12:07:00 -
[49]
Personally I prefer Womble to Jawa, after all I'm a hi-sec carebear.
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Lady Spank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.04.25 12:20:00 -
[50]
Now here's a little story To tell it is a must About an unsung hero That moves away your dust Some people make a fortune Other's earn a mint My old man don't earn much In fact....he's flippin'.....skint
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap He looks a proper narner In his great big hob nailed boots He's got such a job to pull em up That he calls them daisy roots
Some folks give tips at Christmas And some of them forget So when he picks their wrecks up He spills some on the steps Now one old carebear got nasty And to eve general wrote Next time my old man went 'round there He punched him up the throat
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap
I say, I say Duncan I 'er...I found a police dog in my dustbin (How do you know he's a police dog) He had a policeman with him
Though my old man's a ninja He's got a heart of gold He got married recently Though he's 86 years old We said 'Ear! Hang on Dad you're getting past your prime' He said 'Well when you get to my age' 'It helps to pass the time'
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap
I say, I say, I say My dustwrecks full of lillies (Well throw 'em away then) I can't Lilly's wearing them
Now one day while in a hurry He missed a lady's bin He hadn't gone but a few yards When she chased after him 'What game do you think you're playing' She cried right from the heart 'You've missed me...am I too late' 'No... jump up on the cart'
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap
I say, I say, I say (What you again) My dustbin's absolutely full with toadstools (How do you know it's full) 'Cos there's not much room inside
He found a tiger's head one day Nailed to a piece of wood The tiger looked quite miserable But I suppose it should Just then from out a window A voice began to wail He said (Oi! Where's me tiger head) Four foot from it's tail
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap Next time you see a ninja Looking all pale and sad Don't kick him in the dustbin It might be my old dad
~_~
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.04.25 12:25:00 -
[51]
Ninjas. ________________________
Store | Apply |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2010.04.25 12:31:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Mr Epeen no isk, waste of time
This way of thinking is why I ended up quitting.
Now I ninja salvage while my passive ISK generation machine ticks over.
Or at least I will once I get my **** together. -
Did this sig become irrelevant while I was gone? Let me know! |
Zofe Stormcaller
Gallente Shadow Company Legiunea ROmana
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Posted - 2010.04.25 15:52:00 -
[53]
The problem is easily solved by salvaging faster than they do. Just have a friend or corpie salvage everything while you mission, and take turns pewpewing. It worked for me before I moved to nullsec.
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Dan O'Connor
Cerberus Network Dignitas.
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Posted - 2010.04.25 16:31:00 -
[54]
These damn Ninja Looters are everywhere!
But CCP says it's cool. ________________________
Store | Apply |
drunkenmaster
Macho Grande
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Posted - 2010.04.25 17:12:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Vyl Vit The Dynamics of Forum Trolling (Or how to get more replies than the last ninja loot thread) There yo...
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
..u've earned.
All the time you spent 'studying', you should have spend trying to find an agent that isn't in ninja loot heaven.
If you're doing missions for standing/LP, salvage will slow you down. If you're doing missions for ISK, salvage will slow you down. If you're doing missions for fun, don't pick the best agent for a particular faction/corp, as they are NL magnets. If you're doing missions because you LOVE salvaging wrecks, do it somewhere you can protect those wrecks.
Despite the thesaurus you're trying to ingest, you don't come across particularly smart.
PS. The leak is in your effort bucket, not the game. Sig pending |
Atticus Fynch
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Posted - 2010.04.25 18:53:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Lady Spank
Now here's a little story To tell it is a must About an unsung hero That moves away your dust Some people make a fortune Other's earn a mint My old man don't earn much In fact....he's flippin'.....skint
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap He looks a proper narner In his great big hob nailed boots He's got such a job to pull em up That he calls them daisy roots
Some folks give tips at Christmas And some of them forget So when he picks their wrecks up He spills some on the steps Now one old carebear got nasty And to eve general wrote Next time my old man went 'round there He punched him up the throat
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap
I say, I say Duncan I 'er...I found a police dog in my dustbin (How do you know he's a police dog) He had a policeman with him
Though my old man's a ninja He's got a heart of gold He got married recently Though he's 86 years old We said 'Ear! Hang on Dad you're getting past your prime' He said 'Well when you get to my age' 'It helps to pass the time'
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap
I say, I say, I say My dustwrecks full of lillies (Well throw 'em away then) I can't Lilly's wearing them
Now one day while in a hurry He missed a lady's bin He hadn't gone but a few yards When she chased after him 'What game do you think you're playing' She cried right from the heart 'You've missed me...am I too late' 'No... jump up on the cart'
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap
I say, I say, I say (What you again) My dustbin's absolutely full with toadstools (How do you know it's full) 'Cos there's not much room inside
He found a tiger's head one day Nailed to a piece of wood The tiger looked quite miserable But I suppose it should Just then from out a window A voice began to wail He said (Oi! Where's me tiger head) Four foot from it's tail
Oh, my old man's a ninja He wears a ninja's hat He wears cor blimey trousers And he flies cheap tech I crap Next time you see a ninja Looking all pale and sad Don't kick him in the dustbin It might be my old dad
Yes, but consider this:
Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, A tale of a fateful trip That started from this tropic port Aboard this tiny ship.
The mate was a mighty sailing man, The skipper brave and sure. Five passengers set sail that day For a three hour tour, a three hour tour.
The weather started getting rough, The tiny ship was tossed, If not for the courage of the fearless crew The minnow would be lost, the minnow would be lost.
The ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle With Gilligan The Skipper too, The millionaire and his wife, The movie star The professor and Mary Ann, Here on Gilligans Isle.
So this is the talel of the castways, They're here for a long, long time, They'll have to make the best of things, It's an uphill climb.
The first mate and the Skipper too, Will do their very best, To make the others comfortable, In the tropic island nest.
No phone, no lights no motor cars, Not a single luxury, Like Robinson Crusoe, As primative as can be.
So join us here each week my freinds, You're sure to get a smile, From seven stranded castways, Here on "Gilligan's Isle."
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CCP Shadow
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.04.25 19:22:00 -
[57]
The smack content of this thread has been lowered to acceptable levels. Please keep it civil, thanks.
-- Shadow
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Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
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Posted - 2010.04.25 19:26:00 -
[58]
Originally by: CCP Shadow The smack content of this thread has been lowered to acceptable levels. Please keep it civil, thanks.
-- Shadow
Shadow!
What's your opinion on ninja salvagers?
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AkJon Ferguson
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Posted - 2010.04.25 19:37:00 -
[59]
Garbage collectors are people too.
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Ashira Twilight
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Posted - 2010.04.25 22:24:00 -
[60]
They salvaged his wrecks and looted his tears...poor guy.
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Ronos
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Posted - 2010.04.25 22:39:00 -
[61]
Just do what I have done in the past. If you have just started, warp out and let the mission rats kill him, or if you are almost done, blow up as many of your wrecks as you can b4 he can salvage them. The latter really ****es them off, and I had one guy try to trigger all 3 waves on me so I would die, so i reported him and CCP responded within 2 hours and said he had been "warned" LOL.
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Pok Nibin
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Posted - 2010.04.26 01:00:00 -
[62]
Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it
I'm so glad all the "ninjas" checked in to show their brand of cool. Gee. So cool. The problem with the above thinking is the only one who dies is the one who "does", in does something about people looting missions they did not execute.
As I've said many times before, "Be generous with your own stuff."
The great unsaid is, of course (denial not being a river in Egypt) salvaging missions is integral to them, not an aside. Salvaging derelicts in transitted space, or asteroid belts is of course traditionally free game. But, not so with missions and it is, all this "cool" aside, an object of ridicule that it is a planned "game mechanic". Funny. The "rules" in this no rules game always favor the lazy and parasitic.
Well written post, btw. Forgive the ones with reading comprehension problems. Long blocks of text are just too much for some people.
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Dungheap
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.04.26 03:34:00 -
[63]
salvaging was first introduced you could only salvage an empty wreck. players complained this was inconvenient, so it was changed, and a new way to aggravate other players was born.
it's threads like this, and the crying in local, that keep the 'mini profession' alive. salvage is worth little now, a very small percent of the income from a mission.
experienced players can easily make much more doing nearly anything else, and as stated in this thread, mostly do it for the reaction of the mission runner. someone new to the game who tries it out, quickly realizes it's a dead-end career, with very low top earning potential. and who wants to start a new game as a bottom-feeder anyway?
and a final lol at all the people who laugh at mission runners getting ninja looted, while many of those same ppl cry to the CSM to get war target wrecks protected from looters.
as always, pirate tears = sweetest tears ...
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Sendaton
404 Corporation Not Found
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Posted - 2010.04.26 09:42:00 -
[64]
If a ninja salvager is stupid enough to blunder into one of our L5's (and there are plenty of them out there), we all just warp out, they immediatley get locked, scrambled, popped, and wimper back to their station :)
They are stupid enough to see this huge ball of reds and not warp out, then that's their problem.
Never fails to put a smile on my face
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.04.26 10:07:00 -
[65]
Well, after a long time of game play I stopped calling this a bad thing...
It's like with carrier vs battleships... You work, lets say beeing an everage player, two years to get and averagely fit a carrier. You fly around low sec, at some point you are jumped by... Lets say 6 gank fitted battleships and 2 logistical ships. You get neuted, your fighters get ****d by their small drones and you get blown into ash. Those guys needed... If they were well trained, around 5-6 months tops to get those ships. Their ships were worth not more than 150m each which they earned during a month.
If EVE allowed you to buy the huge bad-ass ship and be king of the hill and not allow you to be shot nor even allow nayone near you... Would it still be eve?
DO a good deed once in a while, BM your mission and give it to a ninja salvager after you finish it if you haven't got time to loot and slavage. Abandon your loot! I do that once in a while, dodixie ninjas can testify!
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Gunnanmon
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.04.26 11:32:00 -
[66]
That's a buncha words. Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Nefrin Maldoes
Minmatar Outer Rim Survey and Salvage
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Posted - 2010.04.27 12:02:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Vyl Vit RABBLE!
u mad?
Originally by: CCP Shadow 2010.04.05 21:12 Well discussions about other games are allowed *rejoice* in Out of Pod Experience, but not EVE General.
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Captain Charismatic
Minmatar Honorless Internet Jerks
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Posted - 2010.05.02 04:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Dungheap salvaging was first introduced you could only salvage an empty wreck. players complained this was inconvenient, so it was changed, and a new way to aggravate other players was born.
it's threads like this, and the crying in local, that keep the 'mini profession' alive. salvage is worth little now, a very small percent of the income from a mission.
experienced players can easily make much more doing nearly anything else, and as stated in this thread, mostly do it for the reaction of the mission runner. someone new to the game who tries it out, quickly realizes it's a dead-end career, with very low top earning potential. and who wants to start a new game as a bottom-feeder anyway?
and a final lol at all the people who laugh at mission runners getting ninja looted, while many of those same ppl cry to the CSM to get war target wrecks protected from looters.
as always, pirate tears = sweetest tears ...
This. I find it funny how people STILL can't stop complaining about ninjas. Even though the fact that it's a game mechanic is proven time and time again.
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Darth McDarth
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Posted - 2010.05.02 04:30:00 -
[69]
I run missions in a tempest occasionally and PRAY a ninja comes into my mission. Instapopping ninjas is fun
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Tamahra
Gallente Danke fuer den Fisch TriMark Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.02 06:15:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Vyl Vit WALL OF TEXT
look, i made the below guide especially for you, so you have a rough idea what you can do against ninja salvagers:
So someone just came into one of your precious Lvl 4 Missions and stole your salvage and/or loot, and you are rather new to this game, then this thread is just for you! Lets see what i have for you
1. CCP¦s Stance towards ninja-salvaging 2. Why complaining about it is futile 3. what can you do against ninja-salvaging
1.
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.
This is not Eve Offline, its Eve Online. Learn to deal with the interaction of other players.
Wrecks being free to everyone even protects newer players from getting blown up. A fair chunk of the ninja salvagers are hoping to provoke a legal fight.
Ninja Salvaging promotes interaction between players. Both the ninja salvager and the mission runner have means to positively or negatively interact with the activities of another player. And this is what a true pvp game is about.
This is not a cookie cutter mmo like WoW or EQ2. Its made for those customers who want challenge and risk. CCP wouldnt want to annoy their core playerbase by dumbing the game down.
Simply because a few people are upset at a part of the game does not mean that said aspect should be removed or changed. Especially if it has been stated by the Devs to be working as intended.
Learn that in Eve Online you can't always get what you want. (See Dev Quotes)
Doing lvl 4 Missions in high sec is the most profitable and safe profession anyways. Having the occasional ninja coming in doesnt make it noticeable less profitable.
3.
You can annoy the ninja by shooting your own wrecks, until he gives up
You can move to a less populated system
If hes stealing too, you can bring an inty or a stealthbomber or an AF, lay a trap and blow him up.
You can train for a marauder, and salvage as you run the mission.
You could join a player run corp and do missions together with other players, salvaging as you mission.
If the mission is still going, you could repeatedly warp out, causing the NPCs to aggro the Ninja
Use ECCM. If a ninja drops some probes and instantly get ten 100% hits on a bunch
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Dirk Mortice
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Posted - 2010.05.02 09:34:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Vyl Vit
By the way, this isn't offered as a suggestion. It's a demand from a paying customer. Show me you know how to do your job. Tighten this up, or understand the loss of respect you've earned.
I see your demand and raise by offering the alternative that CCP not only allows ninja salvaging, but makes looting a free for all as well. Also, whoever gets to the wreck first should be allowed to shoot whoever made the wreck.
I'm a paying customer too! MY DEMANDS SHOULD BE MET
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Taladool
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Posted - 2010.05.02 12:28:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tamahra
If the mission is still going, you could repeatedly warp out, causing the NPCs to aggro the Ninja
I agree with everything but this.
Any ninja worth calling a ninja, this wont bother, I used to fly around in a salvage stabber all day running an ab, speed tanking lvl 4 missions full of rats, its only an issue if you slow down, and that's rare.
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Empress Norton
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Posted - 2010.05.02 13:06:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Vyl Vit A two-month player in a Probe with two salvagers who begins salvaging your mission. What can you do about it?
Try finishing the mission and going to do another one. Get on with your life. Give your stuff to me.
Also, not whining is always a good idea. |
Thanatta
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Posted - 2010.05.03 12:36:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Empress Norton
Originally by: Vyl Vit A two-month player in a Probe with two salvagers who begins salvaging your mission. What can you do about it?
Try finishing the mission and going to do another one. Get on with your life. Give your stuff to me.
Also, not whining is always a good idea.
Or you could just do what I did with my last ninja-looter--looter, not salvager, a distinction clearly lost on the OP--in Motsu yesterday:
1) Fly your salvage-rigged (racial destroyer) back to station.
2) Strip tractor beams/salvagers/MWD/cargohold expansion off, refit with tech 1 hangar-trash for PvP.
3) Re-enter mission space with said PvP trash-fit/speed-gimped (3 salvage-tackle rigs) dessie.
4) AB up to ninja (Gods, why are Caldari ships SO ****ING SLOW!!!), lock, scram, web, insta-pop ninja courtesy of 7 blasters, a missile launcher, and the ninja being laughably fail-fitted.
5) Feel a bit ashamed about posting the kill on Battleclinic, because the ninja in question was a complete, 4-day-old n00b, but smile anyway.
5a) ...Still smiling over the memory, a day and a half later...
Apropos nothing else whatsoever, I think I'll now stay in Motsu, and start fitting a point on my Raven. I can't solo AE4's bonus-room, anyway.
And if he is just a ninja-salvager--IE, no legal pew-pew for you--then just "look at" his ship, wait till he gets close to those juicy BS wrecks, then pop them. The tears, the sweet, sweet, tears...
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Thanatta
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Posted - 2010.05.05 12:37:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Vyl Vit Sanctimonious, myopic carebear-prattle
Your stuffs, I can haz?
Look, WoW is Ok....
...And that's coming from a Motsu (ninja heaven) Caldari Navy mission-grinder!
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2010.05.05 13:13:00 -
[76]
how about you gank fit your mission ship, blast through the missions, pop the juicy looking wrecks if a nanja douche shows up (but dont stick around to savgae it yourself just get another mission)
???
profit!
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.05 13:23:00 -
[77]
Hey Ironfleet! Pay up my royalties already!! ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.05.05 13:29:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Skippermonkey on 05/05/2010 13:29:24 From my experience Ninja Salvaging makes you more isk than missioning
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.05.05 13:58:00 -
[79]
Not so funny:
1) Pop wreck when ninja shows up. 2) Always wait till ninja AB¦s (or MWD¦s) for next wreck. 3) Repeat.
Funny:
1) Get alt with artypest in. 2) Cloak artypest. 3) Ninja pops in. 4) Decloak. 5) Alpha ninja. 6) Lough in local.
Hope this helps.
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Angelique Divinity
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Posted - 2010.05.05 14:43:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Vyl Vit The Dynamics of Cogent Game Design (Or how not to be the object of ridicule) <stuff>
Spelling 10/10 Punctuation 10/10 Grammar 10/10 Layout 10/10 Use of Italics 10/10 Use of Speech Marks 10/10
This is indeed an excellent poast.
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2010.05.05 14:53:00 -
[81]
I agree it's crappy, unintuitive game design that allows this to happen, but CCP makes every effort to allow players to grief each other, and they think it's a fun part of their game. I disagree, but it's their game. Shrug.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.05 17:55:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 05/05/2010 17:55:32
Originally by: Vyl Vit The Dynamics of Cogent Game Design (Or how not to be the object of ridicule)
...bla...
All one need do is make all missions accessible through acceleration gates only the holder of the mission and those fleeted with that player can access. It's not even difficult in terms of coding. Can't the developers see how preposterous it is, and how foolish they look when you are in a ôprivateö instance and see there with you some ôpirateö who's followed you in? It's like buying a bucket, taking it home, filling it with water and finding it leaks. Have they no sense of craftsmanship? Not only are computer games creations of programming language using the marvels of micro-electronics. They also must be judged in terms of what a ôgood gameö is in the traditional sense. A good game is tight, cogent and without loopholes allowing players to circumvent the dynamics of the game. Here, EVE fails
You know, I was dead-set on agreeing with you when I started reading: after all, I'm a carebear, so I loathe looters, ninja-salvagers and gankers. Thing of it is, though, I disagree with you. Two main reasons:
1) You assume a 'loophole' where none exists: the EVE universe was never meant to have safe spots where only you can warp to and do your thing while everyone else has to stay out. And it was especially not designed to allow you to cut sizebale slices of deadspace out of highsec for your own personal entertainment. It's a MMOPRPG: by its very definition it's designed for the facilitation and likelihood of you meeting other people, friend or foe. The only so-called 'private instance' you get is nothing more than a randomly chosen set of coordinates for you to run a mission in. EVE is not private by design. That's as "tight, cogent and without loopholes" as it gets. In fact, allowing you your 'personal space' would be the loophole!
2) You haven't thought this thru. What I can easily see happen, for example, is that pirates and the like, fleeting up with their buddies, would immediately hijack mission deadspace, cornering large operational launch-pads, as it were, from which to conduct their nefarious activities with impunity. After all, abusing mission-time (having it reset for 7 days at DT) they could hold their safe havens for a whole week, and then quickly move to the next. In highsec this would be a huge inconvenience. In lowsec it would be a complete disaster. It's like having a huge wall-less, untakeble POS, but without the upkeep.
I could go on a while, but the point is made I think.
Spelling 10/10 Punctuation 10/10 Grammar 10/10 Layout 10/10 Use of Italics 10/10 Use of Speech Marks 10/10 Thought-thru idea: 0/10 'Demanding' of CCP: -1/10
--
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2010.05.05 18:38:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Zavulon Sukkot Edited by: Zavulon Sukkot on 25/04/2010 06:05:58
Originally by: Mr Epeen People still do that ninja stuff?
I guess it's for the tears, because it sure can't be for the isk. Salvage is next to worthless since the rig change.
:words:
Mr Epeen
Rig dealer spotted. The rigs are where the salvage money is made folks. Keep that in mind :)
I guess you have to say that, don't you.
Either that or admit that your entire corp and alliance are passT and a pointless waste of SP.
And, FYI, the rigs you seem to love so much are actually selling for a 20th of what the did before the change. Hardly a good career choice.
Mr Epeen
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Thanatta
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Posted - 2010.05.06 03:20:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Thanatta on 06/05/2010 03:21:24
Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Zavulon Sukkot Edited by: Zavulon Sukkot on 25/04/2010 06:05:58
Originally by: Mr Epeen People still do that ninja stuff?
I guess it's for the tears, because it sure can't be for the isk. Salvage is next to worthless since the rig change.
:words:
Mr Epeen
Indeed. The only reason I keep salvage at all anymore is when I need to make a rig or three for my own use, although there is still profit to be had there...Naturally, never mind what, or where.
Indeed. The only reason I keep salvage anymore is when I make rigs for my own use.
Rig dealer spotted. The rigs are where the salvage money is made folks. Keep that in mind :)
I guess you have to say that, don't you.
Either that or admit that your entire corp and alliance are passT and a pointless waste of SP.
And, FYI, the rigs you seem to love so much are actually selling for a 20th of what the did before the change. Hardly a good career choice.
Mr Epeen [8)
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LordSkully
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Posted - 2010.05.06 18:08:00 -
[85]
Bleh all you people against this. THIS IS DUMB!!! I agree with the OP
You can also do what I figured is the best option.
1. Stop shooting ships, if there is a trigger in the mission align and shoot at the trigger and warp out. Hopefully the new spawn will pop the ninja. (I love it when this happens)
2. If not, wait until they are almost to the wreak they are flying to and shoot it. repeat process shooting all wreaks close to the player. Waste as much of their time as possible. If I cant get my wreaks, nobody can. I usually drop a can saying just that (in hopes they steal from it)
Unfortunately the flamers are right. CCP does have its head up its :) about this and will not change the game mechanic.
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Antarra Starwind
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Posted - 2010.05.11 15:42:00 -
[86]
Originally by: My Postman Not so funny:
1) Pop wreck when ninja shows up. 2) Always wait till ninja AB¦s (or MWD¦s) for next wreck. 3) Repeat.
Funny:
1) Get alt with artypest in. 2) Cloak artypest. 3) Ninja pops in. 4) Decloak. 5) Alpha ninja. 6) Lough in local.
Hope this helps.
I prefer the 1400mm arty-Mael, myself (though it's a bit expensive and slow); Alpha-strike-of-the-****ing-GODS, innit .
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Osric Wolfe
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Posted - 2010.05.11 16:06:00 -
[87]
If it happens to me I just blow up the wreaks as they get near to them. After destroying a few they usually go off to bug someone else.
I don't have a major problem with ninja salvagers but I'd like them to at least flash red when they ninja salvage.
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2010.05.11 16:25:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Vyl Vit
All one need do is make all missions accessible through acceleration gates only the holder of the mission and those fleeted with that player can access. It's not even difficult in terms of coding.
And how does that limited gate makes any sense? It makes even less sense than the Caldari navy sending thousands of ships to be slaughtered in Dodixie days after day.
And if the majority of your mission income comes from salvaging you are really doing it wrong btw, unless you have a marauders in which case you can do limited looting/salvaging on the go you make way more isks just doing more missions than salvaging the ones you do.
But I do enjoy cheap rigs, salvage away. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
PosterBoyOfNothingMuch
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Posted - 2010.05.11 19:19:00 -
[89]
If they take out ninja salvaging because it's unfair to the mission runner, they have to remove suicide ganking, undercutting other people's orders by .01 ISK, and good ol' fashioned trash talking.
Quote: one has to marvel at what the developers intentions must be
There's no marvelling here, I know (or at least strongly suspect) what their intentions are. Player VERSUS player. At all times, on all facets. You fly into low-sec, someone's gonna try to blow you up! You mine ore, someone's gonna try to take it! You manufacture and sell parts, someone's going to sell it for less! You run a mission, someone's going to take your prize out from under your nose!
Anyway, I stopped ninja salvaging a while ago. The salvage isn't worth jack. Swiping those big guns can be worth a pretty penny, though. Thank God for the Damsel!
Pretty good troll, although I'm no judge. Hope the guy goes to school, he's got grammar way too good for the Internet.
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2010.05.12 00:46:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Vyl Vit The Dynamics of Cogent Game Design
There you are, having worked for weeks (months!) to earn standings enough to mission for a high-quality agent. You've studied the star map to find a location. You've faithfully executed a series of lower-level missions for hours on end just to earn the right to begin missions of gravity and import. You've worked hard to earn the ISK to obtain a ship worthy of the task. You've spent weeks ôstudyingö to acquire the skills needed. You've sharpened your abilities to not only survive the mission but to actually accomplish it. You request the mission, and endure the high-handed personal guff of the agent who obstensively doubts your abilities, but who reluctantly gives you the mission anyway, as though giving away part of the faction treasury. You pilot your ship to the mission site, access the acceleration gate, and what do you find has followed you in? A two-month player in a Probe with two salvagers who begins salvaging your mission. What can you do about it? Nothing.
You have no recourse but to sit and watch as this person takes away the better part of the value of the mission you had to earn your way into. You have to watch as salvage items needed to manufacture the products you'd hoped to market are blithely slipped into this loathesome person's cargo hold. This player wasn't given access to the mission site by any agent he had to earn standings with. He risks nothing. He invests nothing, but he has free access to a mission site you had to invest time and effort to obtain. But, I don't blame that player. No. When I see this happen time and again my thoughts immediately turn to the game design û and therefore the designers.
Not only is this unfair and unjust to the player whose mission it is. It is also a huge hole in EVE that makes the game designers objects of ridicule for having left such a glaring contradiction in dynamics, and it makes the entire process of ôstandingsö with an agent farcical. No cogent intelligent system contradicts itself or opens itself up to ridicule. This, my friends, is ridiculous. However, it's so easily remedied one has to marvel at what the developers intentions must be. These can't be to create a gaming environment that sets a standard on the scale of - say û a game like chess, where the game is so tightly designed there are no points of imbalance or farce.
All one need do is make all missions accessible through acceleration gates only the holder of the mission and those fleeted with that player can access. It's not even difficult in terms of coding. Can't the developers see how preposterous it is, and how foolish they look when you are in a ôprivateö instance and see there with you some ôpirateö who's followed you in? It's like buying a bucket, taking it home, filling it with water and finding it leaks. Have they no sense of craftsmanship? Not only are computer games creations of programming language using the marvels of micro-electronics. They also must be judged in terms of what a ôgood gameö is in the traditional sense. A good game is tight, cogent and without loopholes allowing players to circumvent the dynamics of the game. Here, EVE fails.
The solution is so simple, one can only hope the digital-aristocratic enclave of designers at CCP put a fledgling programmer to work rectifying this leak in their bucket. It's beginning to be difficult to mumble apologies to new players for what is obviously a fundamental flaw in someone's thinking that draws the integrity and quality of the game into question. ôConvert your trial account into a paying one. This doesn't happen that often!ö Uh huh.
By the way, this isn't offered as a suggestion. It's a demand from a paying customer. Show me you know how to do your job. Tighten this up, or understand the loss of respect you've earned.
Shoot them? Seriously, this is EVE ffs, fix your own problems.
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