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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.05.10 08:15:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Guttripper All I see is people wanting an even playing field _after_ those that went down the Learning skill tree path to be penalized once more.
Huh? How would they be penalised (apart from the time lost training the skills and the expense of buying the books, both of which are easy to reimburse)? No-one is talking about removing stats û quite the opposite û but about adding them to everyone.
Too often, while reading threads of this nature, when people talk about removing the Learning skill tree, the added stipulation to balance out the time spent training these skills is to allow a pilot to redistribute the 5,376,000 skill points elsewhere - thus ~removing~ the attributes gained from those skill points. But if people want to remove the Learning skill tree: allow a pilot the option to either keep his attributes (and skill points in a dead tree branch formally known as Learning) _or_ loose the gained attributes and distribute the skill points elsewhere. Thus when everyone gains the ten free attribute points, those pilots that opted to keep their skill points in the dead tree branch will still be ahead in attribute points.
Pilot A knows the Learning skill tree and keeps the attributes and skill points right where they are.
Pilot B knows the Learning skill tree but options to remove the attributes when he / she / it moves the skill points into other skill branches.
Pilot C does not know any Learning skills.
All pilots gain +10 in every attribute. Pilot A is now ten attribute points higher per category than both Pilot B and Pilot C. Time passes and new Pilot D starts posting to complain that Pilot A had the option of learning skills no longer available and thus will always have an advantage! Then another round of forum posting ensues...
So yes, if everyone agrees to add stats to all pilots, then allow the option to pilots like myself with a full Learning skill tree to keep those extra attributes - along with the free stats everyone else will gain.
I will still be ahead in the long run.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.10 09:04:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Guttripper Too often, while reading threads of this nature, when people talk about removing the Learning skill tree, the added stipulation to balance out the time spent training these skills is to allow a pilot to redistribute the 5,376,000 skill points elsewhere - thus ~removing~ the attributes gained from those skill points.
Tbh, I can't see anyone making this argument û all suggestions I've read have been based on the fundamental notion of adding the skill-based attribute points to the base attributes and then nuke the learning skills in some fashion, and the debate has more to do with what that nuking will entail (suck up the loss, reimburse, replace for different perks, what have you).
There are the occasional "why should they get those points for free" arguments, but that's where the reimbursement/reward debate comes in û I've never seen it being argued that people should be denied attribute points that were previously available to them (regardless of whether they already had them or if they could potentially gain them by learning more skills). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Osric Wolfe
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Posted - 2010.05.10 09:16:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Osric Wolfe on 10/05/2010 09:23:10
Originally by: Guttripper If people are so gung-ho on removing the Learning skill tree and gaining entitlement of bonus points (I want something for free!), then why not allow those players that learned the extra attributes over the years gain the entitlement bonus while retaining their original extra attributes too? All I see is people wanting an even playing field _after_ those that went down the Learning skill tree path to be penalized once more. While I went down that daunting path, others were learning skills that helped them gain ISK and modules immediately. Now that I am doing the same as these others at a faster pace, they cry "no fair!" So they (want to) gain attributes for free, I loose attributes I learned to be balanced with free attributes again and an option to spend the skill points elsewhere. No - let me keep my attributes I learned along with the freebies everyone feels they should get and yes - I am still going to be ahead of you.
Eve Online (at times) is very similar to life - there are those that work to get ahead and then there are those cracking forty asking "You want fries with dat?" Constantly whining about veterans having it so good and how there should be entitlements for instant gratification... logoff and try that approach in real life and then let the rest of us know how you fare.
Veterans of Eve do have it good and in general they've earned it. They will always have an advantage over people who have not played for as long as them. But I don't see that as a bad thing and that will not change if the learning skills were replaced.
Removing the learning skills has nothing to do with instant gratification. It's about removing something that should never have been added in the way it was in the first place.
Easiest way would probably be to remove the 1.6 mill 100% training start bonus and plough it into the training skills instead (maybe increase that bonus amount slightly too) so that the bonus in training comes from the pre-trained learning skills. After all learning skills can not really be considered optional. At least this way it would mean that a player with 50 mill sp and full learning skills would not suddenly find themselves with 44.5 mill sp.
I personally don't like this method though as it's untidy and could cause a restriction for CCP further down the road.
I have to wonder that objections for getting rid of the learning skills is more to do with losing the sp from the total sp amount, as 5.5 mill sp is a lot to lose and would represent time lost.
I think the best way to resolve it would be to give back the sp that was used in learning skills so that they could be used as the player wished and it would not upset the game as it would be a 1 time event and the problem would be solved for good. That would depend on if it's possible to do so.
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Osric Wolfe
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Posted - 2010.05.10 10:03:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Guttripper Too often, while reading threads of this nature, when people talk about removing the Learning skill tree, the added stipulation to balance out the time spent training these skills is to allow a pilot to redistribute the 5,376,000 skill points elsewhere - thus ~removing~ the attributes gained from those skill points. But if people want to remove the Learning skill tree: allow a pilot the option to either keep his attributes (and skill points in a dead tree branch formally known as Learning) _or_ loose the gained attributes and distribute the skill points elsewhere. Thus when everyone gains the ten free attribute points, those pilots that opted to keep their skill points in the dead tree branch will still be ahead in attribute points.
The dead skill branch is not a great idea, the less in there the better. What's the point of having sp that refers to a dead skill set it's not much use, if anything it detracts from your characters real worth.
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.05.10 10:15:00 -
[65]
So what to do with the Learning skill tree?
Let's accept for this debate that everyone will gain +10 in attributes once a plan is devised. And implants are not counted since that variable is too broad a topic per pilot. Thus I can see three options to do with the Learning skill tree, with each option having sub-options.
First - leave the Learning skill tree in the game currently as it is seeded. This gives a pilot an option to either learn them now, later, or never (current state of affairs).
Second - force the Learning skill tree into a non-public available set of skill books. Thus if you have them in your possession, you can benefit while those after you will not have that option. CCP leaves the "learned" attributes attached to each pilot _or_ allows that pilot to move those skill points, and thus loosing / removing the learned attributes to other skill trees. Once a player decides to remove the attributes gained from the skills, they are forever lost.
Third - remove every aspect of the Learning skill tree and force players to redistribute the skill points elsewhere. Thus those pilots that had "learned" attributes will automatically loose them since the points linked to those skill points are pushed into other skill trees.
Perhaps there are other options I do not see at the moment.
The first option has as an argument that the Learning skill tree takes too long for the benefits to kick in. The second option does not have an argument today, but future generation of pilots will want the option of the Learning skill tree now defunct. Those pilots that kept their "learned" attributes will still be ahead of those without and instead of having the option to potentially catch-up, the distance between the "have" and "have not" will stretch further apart as the years pass. The third option will hurt those that took the time to learn the Learning skill tree once again.
If a pilot goes hardcore into the Learning skill tree before any other skills to get the best benefit later, then that pilot's early months are pretty rough. Using my own personal experiences, I started playing this game not even a week before my brother did. Whereas I went the Learning skill tree route, he initially went into skills to help his combat character. While I struggled to survive some level one combat missions (I'm looking at you, the original version of "World's Collide" *shakes fist*), my brother was throwing money at me to learn the advanced books and to keep pace on my ship losses. Fast forward almost four years later, on average I pace around three million more skill points ahead of him, even after he learned the whole Learning skill tree for himself. While I _optioned_ to go that route initially, following option three takes away all those real life months spent in subscription fees, but worse - in time. I am gaining the fruits of that spent time _now_ compared to someone who started at the same time and is still playing today without those skills.
One aspect people forget about the Learning skill tree - the benefits and rewards are later, and not what I call "instant gratification". Learn a new ship skill today and fly that ship right after the skill ends. Learn a new Learning skill today and the benefit will not be rewarded until potentially years later. Most people do not stay with this game long enough to get rewarded from learning the Learning skill tree; and thus these pilots want the benefits of attributes gained now while they can benefit from being players.
The Learning skill tree is equivalent to a safe stock option - it pays squat initially, but given enough time will pay a steady dividend to the owner. Getting the price cost back for the skill books is irrelevant. Spending the skill points from a canceled skill tree is irrelevant. Loosing the four to five months initially spent four years later can not be repaid no matter what plan CCP or the players here can create.
Again, my option then and my rewards today.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.05.10 10:20:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 10/05/2010 10:20:35 current max: 33, 26.4, 22, 22, 22
set base to 17. 15 points to distribute. 10 max per attribute. 17 might not be prettiest base, but it does the job.
projected max: 32, 27, 22, 22, 22 slightly slower max training speed (98.48%), but it's small price, and it could be compensated by preset learning multiplier (+1.015).
add all skill points from Learning group to Double Training Speed pool.
remove all skills and skill points from Learning group.
set buy orders for Learning group skill books.
edit: might as well throw in free remap :) ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel |
Drone1
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Posted - 2010.05.10 11:25:00 -
[67]
No - simply because it benefits newer players (providing they can be bothered to train all three tiers of learning skills) over older palyers who had to slog away for years at the main skills with only the first tier of learning skills to speed things up
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Darkfriend
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Posted - 2010.05.11 00:40:00 -
[68]
If we are going to keep the learning skill system as is then I think they should release these elite skills.
BUT they should somehow decrease the time it takes to train the first two tiers of learning skills and maybe even make it a requirement to have 5/5 to get the elite learning skills.
I would prefer they just take out learning skills all together.
Not a very thought-out reply but I can't help that I'm an idiot. Not a very thought-out reply but I can't help that I'm an idiot. |
ViolenTUK
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.12 11:13:00 -
[69]
I am going to quote myself:
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Learning skills have been an important lesson for eve players. The very fact that you need to spend the time to train to help you train faster was a re-enforcement of how important carefull and selective training is for you. It would be foolish to dismiss learning skills. Can you really say that learning skills are a time sink when we all know that learning has reduced the amount of time that we have all needed to train. Learning skills should stay.
This doesn't mean i approve of elite leaning skills. Actually i haven't decided what my stance is. I do feel that the current system does work so i see no reason to change it.
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myresearch whorse
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Posted - 2010.05.14 12:19:00 -
[70]
The problem is.. there are 2 types of people as far as learning goes.
Those who saw the light at the end of the tunnel.
And those who saw only the tunnel.
For those of us who thought ahead, we argued for months to people that learning the advanced learning skills would be worth it after 3 some years.
We were laughed at, and derided by those who could not fathom being online that long.
Now those who still cannot see the light, see how they have fallen behind, and how their own stupidity has crippled them. (Not really, they arent hurt at all, other than seeing that the people with some sort of forethought were correct, and are ahead of them now, though "ahead" is debatable they just have more sp which really isnt all that great in the long run.)
Those same people who failed to see the future in the past, are now screaming butthurt I need a boost to catch up to those who had forethought.
Why? Because they are babies with no sense of style. They argued over and over that we were idiots for training the advanced learning skills, and now that they are wrong they want to take us down through *****ing on the forums.
Absolutely pathetic.
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Moonduste
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Posted - 2010.05.14 13:34:00 -
[71]
Id like it if stats somehow effected the skills success personally. I'd add in a third tertiary stat to every skill, so the list of stats that effect skills is a bit more split up. But someone with high perception/will and maybe intelligence has a slight edge on missiles. Nothing overwhelming, thinking 1-3% increase effectivness for most people, assuming some level of min maxing for your particular role.
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Sabrina Starfire
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Posted - 2010.05.15 13:20:00 -
[72]
How I see it is the learning skills are effectively a waste of time. They are skills that need doing at the beginning of the game which is not great for people new to the game or alts. Doing learning skills at the beginning is extremely boring (worse than ice mining)and totally unneccesary as an increase in stats would do just as well.
Those learning skills amount to a mini game at the beginning to test how much bordom you can handle. Great for those that like to feel pain of one sort or another.
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Guttripper
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.05.15 15:30:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Sabrina Starfire How I see it is all skills are effectively a waste of time. There are no skills that need doing at the beginning, middle, or end of the game which is not great for people new or old to the game or those creating more worthless alts. Doing any skills at the beginning is extremely boring (worse than gate camping, ice mining, lagging out to blobs, manufacturing, ore mining - basically the whole game) and totally unnecessary as pilots with maxed out skills and stats would do just as well.
Those skills amount to a mini game at the beginning, middle, and end to test how much boredom you can handle from this game. Great for those that like to feel pain of one sort or another and great for CCP's pocket book but not great for people like me that want it all now.
Fixed.
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Sabrina Starfire
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Posted - 2010.05.15 15:58:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Guttripper
Originally by: Sabrina Starfire How I see it is the learning skills are effectively a waste of time. They are skills that need doing at the beginning of the game which is not great for people new to the game or alts. Doing learning skills at the beginning is extremely boring (worse than ice mining) and totally unnecessary as an increase in stats would do just as well.
Those learning skills amount to a mini game at the beginning to test how much boredom you can handle. Great for those that like to feel pain of one sort or another.
Fixed.
It is fixed now. Back to it's original content rather than your misquoted mock up.
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Sabrina Starfire
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Posted - 2010.05.15 16:17:00 -
[75]
The fact people can alter what you say and then quote you as having said it does make the system of quoting on these forums rather redundant. As you can never be sure a quote is valid unless you've read the original first.
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Horus V
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.17 13:41:00 -
[76]
No for skills ! YES for IMPLANTS!!! In my opinion we should have implants "Advanced" +6 and "Elite" +7. Those +6 should be very expensive ie. 3 bil isk and those Elite +7 should be available for pilots with +9 standings towards any faction and this shouldnt be for sell so its just for 1 time use only...if you loose it(died) Faction wont replace any (because its very hard to produce such a high tech goodies) but then you can work for another set of +7's with another faction and when you reach +9 and have free slots (even if you use a jump clone so still keeping full set on the other one and you didnt lost them "yet" but just want to have it in advance) then youll be rewarded with new set.(once again-only if you lost old set or having a jump clone and remember its one chance-one faction).
Ps.-" CCP "-I think we all deserve it and I bet many ppl just leaving the game because of those long skills. With new implants the game would be more dynamic and more fun esspecially for those new characters. Right now after you trained all those learning skills (and having some +4 / +5 your training become faster and you can see the difference but then after months / years you realise that everything is getting slower and slower and there is no hope for any nice boost to your never perfectly polished character. We all know that with new expansions there will be many skills we will have to train to have an access to those new amazing features, this will automaticly change our long term skill plans (ie. Titan
Ps.. Guys What you think? I know many veterans doesnt like the idea but I am telling you this would change the current opinion about eve that if you want something here you need to wait and wait and wait.I know skills is not all-but for ppl who deasnt play or just starting its obvious: you got "...." milions SP you rule and if you dont....well do some mining and watch others can have fun-just kidding The results are easy to guess- muany more people in game (maybe more girls finally).
Ps... Sorry for the style this post
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Shiho Weitong
Caldari Punken Dredophiles
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Posted - 2010.05.20 19:14:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Shiho Weitong on 20/05/2010 19:14:36 Learnings Yes/No, I really don't care.
But if they are stripped out, what about the RL time I spent training 5/5.
People are talking reimbursement skillwise, but what about time.
Not to be a miser, but I think stripping the game of learning skills would be the equivalent of stealing roughly 45Ç from me. (actually 135Ç as I have two alts with 5/5 as well)
If I get my skillpoints redistributed, as I see fit, and instantly, it would be closer to fair, but even in that scenario I would still have lost the training time difference between the now boosted training time, compared to the time i trained the learnings with.
If you simply remove the learnings and give a flat statboost to everyone, I would think that people with 5/5 should be entitled to something along the lines of 3 months gametime... ----------- Why is it called common sense, when it's clearly very rare.
I had a mind once, but alas, I seem to have forgotten where I left it.
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn You win, and thank you. |
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