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Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
165
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Since years meny armor ships got advantage while solo pvp, examples active dominix with 2x LAR + dualcap inectors, or plated trimarked megathorn, in youtube we got few videos where solo megathorn is able to kill small battlecruisers gate camp, other examples, bufer tank Armagedon or Typhon both around 130.000 ehp and enormus dps, form lasers or torpedo.
I dont understand why people are mad because you give some love to shield ships, in my opinion finaly shield ships become similar to armor ships, no need to change this.
Sorry for my horrible English. Teemo for president. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
88
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
sorry for your horrible post CAUTION
SNIGGS |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
165
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:sorry for your horrible post
You welcome here, another whiner because of ASB Teemo for president. |
Manar Detri
9
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
brutix and myrmidon both have better tanks with ancillary shield boosters than with armor reppers. I think this pretty much sums it all up.
But while i say this, i do feel theres nothing to be nerfed with asb's, rather we need a,lot of love for armor tanking. |
Boomhaur
91
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Posted - 2012.07.10 00:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Horrible english? Your english is better than most people who have english as their primary language, I think you graduated past posting that. (If I were an english teacher yes there are some small things I would change, but you get your point across far better than most online)
Most people are mad at ASB especially dual ASB because it gives the user a really good buffer to dps (assuming you don't die from an alpha). Though in my opinion it is a good trade off as fitting these things can become challenging when you try to toss 2 of them to a ship which allows the user to either have incredible shield tanking abilities for as long as the cap charges hold and a few cycles after or alternate between them so they have a tank which lasts longer.
Will admit I don't do PVP but from the looks of it dual ASB seems a bit OP in my opinion. I think the 60 sec of doom they call a reload is a good thing with something that essentially gives 2x the boost of the standard T1 varient at no cap drain for 10-13 cycles depending on if you use normal or faction charges. Having dual ASB kind've negates the large portion of the downtime for reload or can be used simutaneiously for more shield tanking capability.
Personally I will own up to liking how it is now since you can get some interesting builds. But I don't think they keep it that way so I hope they just make it so you can only equip 1 and than roll out T2 varients Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you. |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
165
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Posted - 2012.07.10 01:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Boomhaur wrote:Horrible english? Your english is better than most people who have english as their primary language, I think you graduated past posting that. (If I were an english teacher yes there are some small things I would change, but you get your point across far better than most online) Most people are mad at ASB especially dual ASB because it gives the user a really good buffer to dps (assuming you don't die from an alpha). Though in my opinion it is a good trade off as fitting these things can become challenging when you try to toss 2 of them to a ship which allows the user to either have incredible shield tanking abilities for as long as the cap charges hold and a few cycles after or alternate between them so they have a tank which lasts longer. Will admit I don't do PVP but from the looks of it dual ASB seems a bit OP in my opinion. I think the 60 sec of doom they call a reload is a good thing with something that essentially gives 2x the boost of the standard T1 varient at no cap drain for 10-13 cycles depending on if you use normal or faction charges. Having dual ASB kind've negates the large portion of the downtime for reload or can be used simutaneiously for more shield tanking capability. Personally I will own up to liking how it is now since you can get some interesting builds. But I don't think they keep it that way so I hope they just make it so you can only equip 1 and than roll out T2 varients
I agree with your view on this aspects. "Will admit I don't do PVP but from the looks of it dual ASB seems a bit OP in my opinion"
Until patch for years long only armor ships were powerfull and able to tank and pvp solo like no other ships in game, people was happy becuse (i can and you cant) or ( i use armor and and i rox and you use shield and you suck), now some people mention ancilary shield bosster because finaly some ships got enough boost to bring same solo combat efficnety as armor ships or very similar to them.
For meny people is a big shock to see super tanked ship while using ASB, but for them was always normal to see dual rep ship with cap inectors who can stand to multiple enemy and tank them like few minutes long...
Ok ASB module are great but still in some cases here is big lack of med slots while using dual ASB, so in general armor ship got more impact on pvp.
Ps. Thank you for good words. Teemo for president. |
Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
67
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Posted - 2012.07.10 03:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
1.) We didn't need another thread about this.
2.) ASBs need touching and are going to be touched. Get over it. |
Taurich Vorsel
11
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Posted - 2012.07.10 04:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Still not quite sure how 5 ships with ASB is any more overpowered than 3 buffer ships with 2 logi's
Especially considering the ASB gang will have no tank after a few minutes, and the logi gang can maintain their tank for ever Copine Callmeknau disappeared one day now we are left with Taurich Vorsel AKA BIZARRO COPE! |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
538
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Posted - 2012.07.10 05:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Taurich Vorsel wrote:Especially considering the ASB gang will have no tank after a few minutes, and the logi gang can maintain their tank for ever
Less than a minute for the X-L and LASB. |
Taurich Vorsel
11
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Posted - 2012.07.10 06:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Taurich Vorsel wrote:Especially considering the ASB gang will have no tank after a few minutes, and the logi gang can maintain their tank for ever Less than a minute for the X-L and LASB. Indeed
Although I was talking about the *entire* gang being out of boosters, and also dual ASB Copine Callmeknau disappeared one day now we are left with Taurich Vorsel AKA BIZARRO COPE! |
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Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
6
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Posted - 2012.07.10 06:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote: Until patch for years long only armor ships were powerfull and able to tank and pvp solo like no other ships in game
You probably don't PVP either, because this could not be farther from the truth.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
485
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Posted - 2012.07.10 11:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote:Since years meny armor ships got advantage while solo pvp, examples active dominix with 2x LAR + dualcap inectors, or plated trimarked megathorn, in youtube we got few videos where solo megathorn is able to kill small battlecruisers gate camp, other examples, bufer tank Armagedon or Typhon both around 130.000 ehp and enormus dps, form lasers or torpedo.
I dont understand why people are mad because you give some love to shield ships, in my opinion finaly shield ships become similar to armor ships, no need to change this.
Sorry for my horrible English.
My 145K EHP shield Maelstrom is laughing at your post and expecting to put a "wrecking" shot on your hull for about 18K. Then I change those 1400's for 800's T2 throw some faction ammo in and dam ship is still laughing. You fail to understand no one is asking to take those mods away, people are saying those are way too powerful (rep amount) and need fitting restrictions. Then please explain me how overpowered is armor and what are they doing better a regular shield ship can't do at station and gate camping. Maybe it's that extraordinary new armor mod heavy cap hungry and the time it gets useful your ship is dead?
Actually the best armor gank ships are shield fitted because sub cap armor tank sucks for other purpose than bait. The only armor ship still having some place for pvp is Abaddon because +5 armor resist p/lvl might help it being a stand still duck pewpewing scorch. Small armor gangs can succeed but shield gangs will always be faster/versatile therefore will be dominant.
No one is saying shields are overpowered except the obvious points of ASB everyone points, but everyone will tell you armor tanking and very specially active armor tanking is total crap just good for some nerds to make videos about their uberness because they killed a couple ships (notice difference in between total crap and not being able to do anything).
As it stands right now the worst choice you can ever make for pvp in gangs is to use armor over shield setups, those can work and do in some situations but shields are undeniably superior for everything sub cap. (well after introduction of new DED A-B-C type invuls and mods seems even shield caps are ow far superior to armor despite slaves)
*Looks at Radnarok* brb |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
29
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Posted - 2012.07.10 11:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cpt Branko wrote:Cloned S0ul wrote: Until patch for years long only armor ships were powerfull and able to tank and pvp solo like no other ships in game
You probably don't PVP either, because this could not be farther from the truth.
He is not far from the truth. 5 years ago that was the reality, if you asked back then how to fit a shield tankign ship for PVP you always got this answer.
1 PVP 2 SHIELD 3 SUCCESS
PICK 2 of the above.
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Jerick Ludhowe
The Scope Gallente Federation
92
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Posted - 2012.07.10 14:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Manar Detri wrote:brutix and myrmidon both have better tanks with ancillary shield boosters than with armor reppers. I think this pretty much sums it all up.
But while i say this, i do feel theres nothing to be nerfed with asb's, rather we need a,lot of love for armor tanking.
So you promote the trend of abusive power creep then? ASB should have never been put into the game, period. Shields already had an option for capless shield regen, armor did not...
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Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
34
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Posted - 2012.07.10 14:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:So you promote the trend of abusive power creep then? ASB should have never been put into the game, period. Shields already had an option for capless shield regen, armor did not... It's not power creep. Buffer had its buff years ago, a buff to active tanking would only make it in line with buffer. |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
29
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Posted - 2012.07.10 14:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Manar Detri wrote:brutix and myrmidon both have better tanks with ancillary shield boosters than with armor reppers. I think this pretty much sums it all up.
But while i say this, i do feel theres nothing to be nerfed with asb's, rather we need a,lot of love for armor tanking. So you promote the trend of abusive power creep then? ASB should have never been put into the game, period. Shields already had an option for capless shield regen, armor did not...
CCP clearly stated that they intend to make active tanking strong again. Strong enoguh that gallente and minmatar rely on active tanking while other races rely on buffer tank. This seems simply a test of a theory and as of now it has been the first ever successful attempt to make active tank a bit more interesting!
ASB are great for game and should stay! Armor tanking needs to have equivalent work, most likely in the form of massively reducing the fitting of active repairers and increasing their effectiveness.
This is not power creep. Active tanking has been considered a JOKE for several years and this has ben brought up time after time and CCP always promissed they would think on something. And they have and its WORKING! |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
165
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:10:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:So you promote the trend of abusive power creep then? ASB should have never been put into the game, period. Shields already had an option for capless shield regen, armor did not... It's not power creep. Buffer had its buff years ago, a buff to active tanking would only make it in line with buffer.
This. Teemo for president. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
260
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
OP,
While I don't have an issue with the ASB, your premise that active armor tanking has had an advantage for years is a complete joke. With the exception of a couple of ships active armor tanking in PVP has been a joke. And buffer shield tanking is far more popular than buffer armor tanking, even for ships that are designed as armor tankers (thinks Brutix as an example). |
Cloned S0ul
Blood Fanatics
165
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:OP,
While I don't have an issue with the ASB, your premise that active armor tanking has had an advantage for years is a complete joke. With the exception of a couple of ships active armor tanking in PVP has been a joke. And buffer shield tanking is far more popular than buffer armor tanking, even for ships that are designed as armor tankers (thinks Brutix as an example).
Before patch since years i never saw a raven, rookh, scorpion, shield tanked typhoon, tempest pilots who was able to tank multiple enemy for few minutes while fighting in low sec vs pirates etc, while other armor ships deal with this kind of pvp without problems, because of high survavibility and decent dps + a lot (free) med slots for ew modules, now other not worth before ships are potentially in same line while using ASB , but is ok i dont force any of you to agree with my post, its only my opinion. Teemo for president. |
Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
30
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:OP,
While I don't have an issue with the ASB, your premise that active armor tanking has had an advantage for years is a complete joke. With the exception of a couple of ships active armor tanking in PVP has been a joke. And buffer shield tanking is far more popular than buffer armor tanking, even for ships that are designed as armor tankers (thinks Brutix as an example).
Did you even flew when doomsdays had AOE damage? Back then or you fielded a massive Armor buffer or you didn 't flew at all!
Also in the age of RR battleships is another example of when armor tanking was supreme ( it was not feasible to do RR shield tanked battleships) |
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IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
200
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
OP has to be a troll right?
Armor tanks are still good, links a video nearly as old as my abaddon. |
Noisrevbus
159
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
Taurich Vorsel wrote:Still not quite sure how 5 ships with ASB is any more overpowered than 3 buffer ships with 2 logi's
Especially considering the ASB gang will have no tank after a few minutes, and the logi gang can maintain their tank for ever
... because a fight at that scale is usually over within a few minutes, and in the meantime the ASB gang will tank an immense amount of burst damage without much recourse?
Compared to the Logi-gang where you can just EW one and blitz the other, or just blitz throguh reps since both your damage output and burst tank is far superior.
The introduction of ASB make about as much sense as the Falcon changes. It will never appeal outside of it's direct target pool (solo- to small-gang PvP), while within it it's stupidly powerful. They are "balanced" by getting shot through buffer as scale rise. It's your typical lowsec solo Maelstrom's wet dream, where he can fight low skillpoint Battlecruisers up to a certain point.
Not that i care to make a stand for either side here, but let's not slip into nonsense .
If certain things come pre-nerfed, ancills surely came pre-buffed to appeal to the conservative within a small clique.
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Kalel Nimrott
Wishful Desires Inc. Armada Assail
21
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:1.) We didn't need another thread about this.
2.) ASBs need touching and are going to be touched. Get over it.
Buaaaah! I'm not CCP favorites anymore!!!!!!!!! Buaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!!!, Fix it!!!!!!!! |
Rutger Centemus
Phantom Squad Nulli Secunda
9
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Seishi Maru wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:OP,
While I don't have an issue with the ASB, your premise that active armor tanking has had an advantage for years is a complete joke. With the exception of a couple of ships active armor tanking in PVP has been a joke. And buffer shield tanking is far more popular than buffer armor tanking, even for ships that are designed as armor tankers (thinks Brutix as an example). Did you even flew when doomsdays had AOE damage? Back then or you fielded a massive Armor buffer or you didn 't flew at all! Also in the age of RR battleships is another example of when armor tanking was supreme ( it was not feasible to do RR shield tanked battleships) Could you tell us which century you're living in? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
261
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Posted - 2012.07.10 16:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cloned S0ul wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:OP,
While I don't have an issue with the ASB, your premise that active armor tanking has had an advantage for years is a complete joke. With the exception of a couple of ships active armor tanking in PVP has been a joke. And buffer shield tanking is far more popular than buffer armor tanking, even for ships that are designed as armor tankers (thinks Brutix as an example). Before patch since years i never saw a raven, rookh, scorpion, shield tanked typhoon, tempest pilots who was able to tank multiple enemy for few minutes, even with normal x large shield booster while fighting in low sec vs pirates etc, while other armor ships deal with this kind of pvp without problems, because of high survavibility and decent dps + a lot (free) med slots for ew modules, now other not worth before ships are potentially in same line while using ASB , but is ok i dont force any of you to agree with my post, its only my opinion.
I see very few of those ships in SOLO PVP period (which is what you specified in your OP). And many of the above are simply poor PVP ships regardless. Much of the solo/small gang PVP has been dominated by shield BC's down for quite some time.
Again, I don't dislike the ASB. But to try and say armor has had some advantage in SOLO and small gang PVP is just flat out wrong.
Seishi Maru wrote:Did you even flew when doomsdays had AOE damage? Back then or you fielded a massive Armor buffer or you didn 't flew at all!
I fail to see the relevance when the OP specified SOLO PVP. Unless you are soloing Titans regularily? |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
66
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Posted - 2012.07.10 17:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Active shield tanking in pvp has become a thing again with the ASBs, previously it was pretty much Tengu only, with the odd Cyclone having himself a marvellous time.
While I agree that they're far superior to the adaptive armour hardener that came with them in Inferno, they don't need much tinkering with. All I can think of is that 400 and 800 charges both provide the same boost amount, so there's no reason to put 800s in since you can fit less. "Fools! I'll show them all!"
What do you mean that one's already taken? |
Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
10
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Posted - 2012.07.11 06:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
MisterNick wrote:Active shield tanking in pvp has become a thing again with the ASBs, previously it was pretty much Tengu only, with the odd Cyclone having himself a marvellous time.
Mainly because Drake can't fit it due to fitting issues, Hurricane can't fit it because 4 midslots (it was not, I think, designed to actively shieldtank), Maelstrom is a battleship without spare slots for heavy neuts so niche usage, and what else gets flown with any regularity?
Cruiser hulls just can't fit / power it, putting it on Amarr ships would be a bad joke (and can't fit, anyway), putting it on Myrmidon would be funny but can't fit with any weapons worth a damn.
So that leaves Tengu, Cyclone and Sleipnir (which is just too expensive for what it does) which can make workable active tank fits. |
Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
35
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Posted - 2012.07.11 08:53:00 -
[28] - Quote
Manar Detri wrote:brutix and myrmidon both have better tanks with ancillary shield boosters than with armor reppers. I think this pretty much sums it all up.
But while i say this, i do feel theres nothing to be nerfed with asb's, rather we need a,lot of love for armor tanking.
You are 100% right. Active armor tanking has been a joke for a long time. It shouldn't require double rep's on a battleship with no damage mods to a achieve a 600 DPS tank.
I think armore repair ammount of armor repairs needs to be scaled based on ship size better.
Frigates: need maybe 15%-20% more per cycle Cruisers: need about 30%-40% more per cycle Battleships: need at LEAST 50%-60% more per cycle
Also armor repairer rigs need to stop reducing speed. instead reducing shield amount or structure HP would make more sense. |
Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
11
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Posted - 2012.07.11 09:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: I think armore repair ammount of armor repairs needs to be scaled based on ship size better.
Frigates: need maybe 15%-20% more per cycle Cruisers: need about 30%-40% more per cycle Battleships: need at LEAST 50%-60% more per cycle
You got it entirely backwards. LARs are largely fine except for huge fitting costs (you free up 3+K grid by going with two plate 5-slot tank instead of active 5-slot tank though), the 650-800 DPS tank of a 5 lowslot slot dual-LAR tank is both sufficient and enables you to have 2 damage mods on a 7-lowslot ship. Sad fact is that it's useless because either you will fly in gangs, where you want buffer anyway and will always want buffer (and RRs) above a certain (and not very large) size, or you can't fit largest guns rendering the BS pointless next to a plated variant.
It is how it scales to smaller ships what is actually problematic. A LAR is 100% stronger then a MAR, but a large turret is 33-34% more DPS then a medium turret. If scaling was the same as it is for turrets, then a MAR would need to repair 67% more HP, and a SAR 133% more HP. Suggesting that BS reps should get an increase bigger then the medium or small reps because scaling is somehow wrong is silly.
Again, the real issue is fitting costs and number of slots taken. Shields don't have the slot problem so much (because of XL-SB), so they are occasionally seen, but active armour fits have no "two in one" option, and the repair rigs also reduce speed. So even ships with 6 lows and 4 mids which in theory could make armour active tanks can go only shield buffer or plate. |
Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
35
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Posted - 2012.07.11 10:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Are you trolling? There are 4 sizes of shield booster + shield boost amps. large armor repairers are hideously under-powered.
If you have a dual LAR setup on a megathron with all lvl5, 3x active hardeners, 1x EANM, a DC and THREE active repair rigs you can tank 900 DPS
You have 69k EHP - and no Mag Stabs, and Ion blasters.
The standard 1x 1600, 1x EANM, 2x MFS, 1x DC setup has neutrons, has 121k EHP and about 300 more DPS.
That means it takes (121-69)/.9 = 57 seconds for the dual LAR to have equal EHP to the palted setup. it also burns around (42+42)*57 = 4788 capacitor to do this. The plated megathron doesnt burn ANY do get this HP.
Now technically this comparison isnt fair, because the plated megathron is technically setup for gank, whereas the dual LAR setup is used for tank. if we take a fully EHP megathron we can get about 168k EHP (WITHOUT slaves) so we can re-do the math on this. This setup still has neutrons. So we reach this
Dual LAR = 110 seconds to reach palted mega EHP, costing 9240 Capacitor.
So please, if you think LAR's are fine, you need your head examined. None of these numbers take into account Slaves, or that active shield tanking has Crystals.
Active armor tanking, especially battleship active armor tanking, requries a huge overhaul. |
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