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Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
323
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 10:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
A lot of people are talking about Technetium, politics etc. But Technetium is just a sympton of serious flaws within the gameplay mechanics.
I am talking here about bottlenecks. For example Tech 2 is more or less the baseline for most serious ship fittings, so everone wants Tech 2 and everyone uses Tech 2. But the number of Tech 2 modules and ships was always limited, the demand often exceeding the available supply.
To build Tech 2 in short descriptions you need a blueprint a tech 1 version of the module/ship and the proper components. A few years ago the number of available blueprints were the limit and formed a hard wall. No matter how much dysposium, technetium etc was mined it was the number of blueprints in production that put a cap on demand of moon minerals. Corps and alliances with players lucky enough to have gotten a tech 2 BPO were the ones who held sovereignity, since they were the only ones who could afford sustained warfare in 0.0.
It took years for CCP to acknowledge the problem, partly because the major 0.0 alliances were quite happy with this situation and lobbying againt any change. Then invention was brought into this mess, with the option to create tech 2 BPC. The entry barrier was high at the time but still practically anyone could start to invent and so tech 2 BPO owners suddenly had a lot of competition. With this competition the bottleneck only shifted, to the high end moons like Dysposium. BoB tried at the time what goons now almost achieved, to control the limited supply of moon minerals and with this effectivly the tech 2 production chain.
A few years forward, a nerf to Dysposium, a POSgate scandal, a half-hearted attempt of CCP with alchemy later we still have the same situation, the production is severely limited by the certain moon minerals that cannot be effectivly replaced and whoever controls the supply, controls the market.
From a gameplay mechanic this is extremely bad because a group that manages to do that effectivly controls the market and has everyone, including the high sec dweller, working for their coffers.
Bottlenecks exist also in the tech 3 productions with melted nanoribbons. While the supply is not limited the droprate-mechanics have the nanoribbons as a somewhat rare component and effectivly one of the few components worth salvaging.
In conclusion, the problem was not created by BoB or Goons or the illuminati but by incompetence in the gamedesign department of CCP and I don't see it being fixed since the ones who profit from this situation are lobbying against any change.
....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1611
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Posted - 2012.07.10 10:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:From a gameplay mechanic [bottlenecks are] extremely bad because a group that manages to do that effectivly controls the market and has everyone, including the high sec dweller, working for their coffers.
Bottlenecks exist also in the tech 3 productions with melted nanoribbons. While the supply is not limited the droprate-mechanics have the nanoribbons as a somewhat rare component and effectivly one of the few components worth salvaging.
Bottlenecks in the production of advanced technology are a good thing for the game, especially considering the upcoming "tiericide" where all T1 ships will (hopefully) become viable. You highlighted two cases where bottlenecks are good, though the nature of the bottlenecks means that in T2 production, whoever controls the Technetium moons will effectively have unlimited ISK to play with. The melted nano ribbons bottleneck is good because there is great incentive for players to seek out w-space (i.e.: live dangerously) to procure the valuable resource.
The only issue with Technetium is that it is easy for a large group of players to monopolise the resource. When ring mining is introduced, this issue will wane. If alchemy is spread to all moon minerals, this issue will at least be kept in check by a price ceiling since one moon mineral won't be able to rise in price further than the cost of creating it from lesser minerals.
Bottlenecks (aka "critical resource scarcity") are essential to having something for the more aggressive industrialists to fight over.
Some folks will fight over insults regarding their family. Others will fight over role-play ideology, others will fight over the way you spell "colour". Some people will fight over control of a resource that ensures them an easy income.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Minta Contha
Emergent Entity KONZERN
66
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Posted - 2012.07.10 10:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stop whining about the Goons. They are nowhere near controlling the entire supply of anything. Go look at your map and bring up the sovereignty data and look at what a pissingly small area of nullsec they control compared to the total. My cooking is like my lovemaking - fast, greasy, and unsatisfying. |
Adeena Torcfist
Dark Underground Forces
41
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Posted - 2012.07.10 10:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Youve probably got a point there. The problem wouldnt be so bad if you could moon mine everywhere, with the higher outputs the lower the sec of systems & really poor outputs the higher sec systems.
I still think T2 now, 7+ years on is still too expensive, so bringing prices down, would at least, ironically, be inline with T2 insurance
How is eve meant to evolve when things like this is so outdated.
I also think T2 BPO's should be seeded anyways, with invention as a stepping stone to acquire the isk & skills to own one such item. |
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1297
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Posted - 2012.07.10 10:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:I don't see it being fixed since the ones who profit from this situation are lobbying against any change.
[citation needed] a rogue goon |
Jonah Gravenstein
598
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 10:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bottlenecks exist in every facet of life, in Eve it's Tech, T3, nanoribbons etc, in real life it's crude oil, gold, diamonds, honest politicians , traffic, data throughput & a multitude of other things.
They are a feature of both natural and man made systems and will never change. War hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
dexington
Lysergic.acid.diethylamide
32
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Posted - 2012.07.10 10:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
While it would be a slap in the face to the people who own T2 bpo, CCP would change the -4 me/pe in invented T2 bpc, which would reduce the amount of the advanced components needed for T2 production. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8471
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 11:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:I don't see it being fixed since the ones who profit from this situation are lobbying against any change. Funnily enough, the current tech holders are the ones that have lobbied the most for a solution to the tech bottleneck, and w-spacers are the ones who have raised the most concerns about the disparities in value of sleeper drops and salvageGǪ
So no. The reason it's not being GÇ£fixedGÇ£ is because it's difficult and not entirely desirable, as Mara Rinn points out.
dexington wrote:While it would be a slap in the face to the people who own T2 bpo, CCP would change the -4 me/pe in invented T2 bpc, which would reduce the amount of the advanced components needed for T2 production. That wouldn't alleviate any bottlenecks GÇö just make stuff slightly cheaper. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
560
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 11:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
On the contrary OP, the bottlenecks give people a reason to fight, and a reason to play. |
dexington
Lysergic.acid.diethylamide
32
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Posted - 2012.07.10 11:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tippia wrote:dexington wrote:While it would be a slap in the face to the people who own T2 bpo, CCP would change the -4 me/pe in invented T2 bpc, which would reduce the amount of the advanced components needed for T2 production. That wouldn't alleviate any bottlenecks GÇö just make stuff slightly cheaper.
Unless production can not be done without any limiting resources bottlenecks will continue to exist, that much is sure.
I am not sure i understand why decreasing the amount needed of the most limiting resources, is not going to make the situation less severe. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8471
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Posted - 2012.07.10 11:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
dexington wrote:I am not sure i understand why decreasing the amount needed of the most limiting resources, is not going to make the situation less severe. Because the bottleneck is caused by unbalanced ratios of materials needed in relation to ratios of materials produced GÇö not by absolute amounts. Decreasing the amounts needed does not change the ratios.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Halete
Echoes of Korgoth Initiative
251
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Posted - 2012.07.10 11:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:[quote=Deviana Sevidon] Some folks will fight over insults regarding their family. Others will fight over role-play ideology, others will fight over the way you spell "colour". Some people will fight over control of a resource that ensures them an easy income.
Is it bad that although this entire post was well-constructed, the most startling realization that came from it was that CCP created a game where I could decide to ruin somebody's week because of the way they spell 'lose' as 'loose'? Dirty heretical mud-child, reporting in. // Throwing one's hands up in the air and crying 'cal-matar nonsense!' seems to be the new dismissive these days when someone is being neither relevant nor dignified. |
dexington
Lysergic.acid.diethylamide
32
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 11:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tippia wrote:dexington wrote:I am not sure i understand why decreasing the amount needed of the most limiting resources, is not going to make the situation less severe. Because the bottleneck is caused by unbalanced ratios of materials needed in relation to ratios of materials produced GÇö not by absolute amounts. Decreasing the amounts needed does not change the ratios.
If the problem is the ratio between materials need and materials produces, and the amount of materials produced is constant, is seem to the logical conclusion would be, that reducing the amount of materials needed would lessen the problem. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8471
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 11:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
dexington wrote:If the problem is the ratio between materials need and materials produces, and the amount of materials produced is constant, is seem to the logical conclusion would be, that reducing the amount of materials needed would lessen the problem. GǪexcept that the ratio remains the same and the ratio is the problem, so the problem isn't lessened by something that doesn't address it.
If you need 10 apples, 6 oranges and 2 bananas to make a fruit salad, and can get hold of 10 of each, then the apples are a bottleneck that constantly constrains your ability to make the fruit salads. If the recipe is changed to only require 5 apples, 3 oranges and 1 banana, then all that has happened is that you can do twice as many batches GÇö the problem with the apple bottleneck is exactly the same as before and you still have as many useless oranges and bananas left over when all is said and done.
Also, and the production isn't constant either, especially not for the non-bottleneck materials. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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dexington
Lysergic.acid.diethylamide
32
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 12:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tippia wrote:dexington wrote:If the problem is the ratio between materials need and materials produces, and the amount of materials produced is constant, is seem to the logical conclusion would be, that reducing the amount of materials needed would lessen the problem. GǪexcept that the ratio remains the same and the ratio is the problem, so the problem isn't lessened by something that doesn't address it. If you need 10 apples, 6 oranges and 2 bananas to make a fruit salad, and can get hold of 10 of each, then the apples are a bottleneck that constantly constrains your ability to make the fruit salads. If the recipe is changed to only require 5 apples, 3 oranges and 1 banana, then all that has happened is that you can do twice as many batches GÇö the problem with the apple bottleneck is exactly the same as before and you still have as many useless oranges and bananas left over when all is said and done. Also, and the production isn't constant either, especially not for the non-bottleneck materials.
This sounds a lot more like evaluating productivity and efficiency, the bottleneck problem has little to do with extra resources build up in excessive amounts, as long as you have the needed apples, no bottleneck exists. The bottleneck problem only occurs if the amount of available resources are limiting the process.
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Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
1130
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 12:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Minta Contha wrote:Stop whining about the Goons. They are nowhere near controlling the entire supply of anything. Go look at your map and bring up the sovereignty data and look at what a pissingly small area of nullsec they control compared to the total. As moon mining doesnt require SOV, your comment is meaningless. My homeboys tried to warn me But that butt you got makes me so horny |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
8474
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 12:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
dexington wrote:This sounds a lot more like evaluating productivity and efficiency, the bottleneck problem has little to do with extra resources build up in excessive amounts, as long as you have the needed apples, no bottleneck exists. The bottleneck problem only occurs if the amount of available resources are limiting the process. GǪand as luck would have it, the available resources are limiting the process because the manufacturing and production ratios are out of whack.
Oh, and the bottleneck exists regardless GÇö it's just not being strained if the end product is in such low demand that you don't run out of the bottlenecked resource (and in that case, other parts are broken anyway so you it's not really a useful solution). The bottleneck still determines how valuable the other ingredients are and how much use you can get out of them. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
CONCORD spawns: quick enough to save you?
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Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
12
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Posted - 2012.07.10 12:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:I am talking here about bottlenecks. For example Tech 2 is more or less the baseline for most serious ship fittings, so everone wants Tech 2 and everyone uses Tech 2. But the number of Tech 2 modules and ships was always limited, the demand often exceeding the available supply.
No. Deadspace items are bottlenecked, that's why everyone who can't afford to lose those falls back to Tech 2 as a sort of "baseline tech". No matter how you change the economy, there will alwasy be bottlenecks, more and less desireable products. All you need to do is find your own sweetspot and you can enjoy all the fruits of the labor. Or, to take the above example - figure out how to produce apples instead of blaming the wind for bad spread of the apple tree seeds. |
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 13:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Just fly tech 1, problem solved. A good predator knows how to live in balance with his prey, lest he follow them into oblivion. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
37
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 13:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
I view it as a positive.
There should be reasons to the take and control space in 0.0, and resources are a good reason. And without a few bottlenecks (high value resources) all space is the same, and will not be a huge conflict driver.
As an inventor, I do not like the current tech moon situation, but life is not all rainbows and sunshine. But it is not like One corp owns it all. There are multiple alliances who own the lions share. Eventually, someone will bored, **** someone off, or get greedy and want more. The cartel will end.
But for now, if someone was going to call a "wiinner".... I think the goons would be at the top of the list. But 6 months from now... I'm sure they will have screwed it all up somehow :) Allocate resources to FiS |
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Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
10
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Posted - 2012.07.10 13:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
I must have missed the memo. Please explain "alchemy" to me in EvE terms. Thanks. |
Private Pineapple
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
217
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 14:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Minta Contha wrote:Stop whining about the Goons. They are nowhere near controlling the entire supply of anything. Go look at your map and bring up the sovereignty data and look at what a pissingly small area of nullsec they control compared to the total.
OTEC I am the Kingpin of the Crime and Punishment forum.
I am the rightful heir to the CSM 8 throne.
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Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
1615
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 14:48:00 -
[23] - Quote
Goons were the first that asked for a technetium fix.
Why do people believe that having an opinion and stating it, even if it's actually total bullcrap, is some kind of a right they can use whenever they want ? O_o Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Minta Contha
Emergent Entity KONZERN
66
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 15:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Private Pineapple wrote:Minta Contha wrote:Stop whining about the Goons. They are nowhere near controlling the entire supply of anything. Go look at your map and bring up the sovereignty data and look at what a pissingly small area of nullsec they control compared to the total. OTEC
What does OTEC mean? My cooking is like my lovemaking - fast, greasy, and unsatisfying. |
Bart Wart
41
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Posted - 2012.07.10 15:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
I was hoping OP was going to discuss jump gate mechanics. Instead, I found a stealth slam against the Goons and CFC. Don't worry OP, it's almost time for another goons circle jerk thread, and you can attack them in it all you want. They're usually pretty good about giving us one at least once a week, but this whole war in Delve thing seems to be occupying them. I wish they'd get back to shitting up the forums again. |
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
162
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 15:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
Minta Contha wrote:Private Pineapple wrote:Minta Contha wrote:Stop whining about the Goons. They are nowhere near controlling the entire supply of anything. Go look at your map and bring up the sovereignty data and look at what a pissingly small area of nullsec they control compared to the total. OTEC What does OTEC mean?
It is a play on the RL Oil cartel OPEC.
It is a cartel of all tech producing corps/alliances that control every known tech moon in the game. Last I heard, they are forbidden to sell tech for anything less than 200k/unit. By keeping a control on the price of tech, buyers of the item (IE, T2 manufacturers) pay an artificially higher price than they might have otherwise paid if everyone who controlled tech was on their own and trying to undercut each other. Because T2 ships/modules are so important to so many players, the inelastic demand ensures that consumers will still pay the higher prices for T2 goods, despite the inflated price for Tech.
The updates to alchemy/ring mining are supposed to allow anyone who can produce more common moon minerals to refine them up into tech, thus breaking the absolute control over the market in the same way they did with invention to counter the cartels that T2 BPOs formed.
While it is true that the Goons do not personally control all the tech in the game, there is a perception that they are the leaders of the OTEC cartel and that other corps/alliances must play by their rules if they are 'allowed' to own their tech moons. How true this perception is, I do not know as I have no contacts or intel on the Goons or other tech-owning entities that isn't publicly available.
In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse. |
Anhenka
Burning Napalm Northern Coalition.
3
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 17:30:00 -
[27] - Quote
[/quote]
It is a play on the RL Oil cartel OPEC.
It is a cartel of all tech producing corps/alliances that control every known tech moon in the game. Last I heard, they are forbidden to sell tech for anything less than 200k/unit. By keeping a control on the price of tech, buyers of the item (IE, T2 manufacturers) pay an artificially higher price than they might have otherwise paid if everyone who controlled tech was on their own and trying to undercut each other. Because T2 ships/modules are so important to so many players, the inelastic demand ensures that consumers will still pay the higher prices for T2 goods, despite the inflated price for Tech.
The updates to alchemy/ring mining are supposed to allow anyone who can produce more common moon minerals to refine them up into tech, thus breaking the absolute control over the market in the same way they did with invention to counter the cartels that T2 BPOs formed.
While it is true that the Goons do not personally control all the tech in the game, there is a perception that they are the leaders of the OTEC cartel and that other corps/alliances must play by their rules if they are 'allowed' to own their tech moons. How true this perception is, I do not know as I have no contacts or intel on the Goons or other tech-owning entities that isn't publicly available.
[/quote]
To the best of my not very informed knowledge, there is no real price fixing going currently. No need to tbh. Tech is still a bottleneck, and with Delvewar and the Solar Vs NCdot+bros in Geminate, Demand for t2 ships is high enough to keep prices high (160k/unit atm) without stockpiling and price fixing.
I dont know about the other OTEC alliances, but there is no lost bropact between most of NCdot and Goons. An agreement not to shoot each others tech moons is to our mutual benefit, but the type of close collaboration required to price fix tech seems unlikely. Goon "enforcement" of an OTEC style treaty is impossible atm anyway. If NCdot sold tech under a preset price, and Goons tried to take our tech moons in reply, it would likely result in NCdot aligning with the SoCo faction, both throwing our not inconsiderable force to them and freeing up the 500 man solar/gypsy/INK /fleets that have been stuck in Geminate fighting us and Ev0ke/Ew0ks.
You could expect Soco fleet sizes to double overnight. |
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:You could expect Soco fleet sizes to double overnight. From the reports I've heard, 0*2 undocked SOCO ships is still 0. Or are you refering to the number of destroyed T3s that you would also be contributing to Soco fleets? "I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:If NCdot sold tech under a preset price, and Goons tried to take our tech moons in reply, it would likely result in NCdot aligning with the SoCo faction, both throwing our not inconsiderable force to them and freeing up the 500 man solar/gypsy/INK /fleets that have been stuck in Geminate fighting us and Ev0ke/Ew0ks.
You could expect Soco fleet sizes to double overnight. Oh, maybe you should do that.
Then the 900 vs 300 would turn into a less crushing ratio. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1163
|
Posted - 2012.07.10 18:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bart Wart wrote:I was hoping OP was going to discuss jump gate mechanics. Instead, I found a stealth slam against the Goons and CFC. Don't worry OP, it's almost time for another goons circle jerk thread, and you can attack them in it all you want. They're usually pretty good about giving us one at least once a week, but this whole war in Delve thing seems to be occupying them. I wish they'd get back to shitting up the forums again. Read Kugu. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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