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Azshann
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Posted - 2010.05.05 06:58:00 -
[1]
The aim of this post is to gather the majority opinion concerning a few major topics. To collect opinions of what is good about intel gathering now, what should be improved and what should be fundamentally changed altogether.
First is the Local channel. What is the majority consensus on the instant intel gathering provided by the Local Channel.
This is my opinion on local.
As a miner/hauler I find it very useful, but I also feel like I'm downright cheating half the time. My general opinion is that the local channel provides too much intel for ZERO effort.
However I believe if someone, or some group, wants to know what is in their system, they should have to put some effort into it. This of course would mean that all the proper tools would have to be implemented to make up for the loss of Local.
Second is Active Cloakers.
I believe anyone who is "actively" playing the game, should be very hard to find if not impossible. In that the regards the cloaking system is perfect as is. However I would like to hear other opinions on this.
However, certain activities by cloakers should have penalties making them more likely to be found be an active search team of 6-8 players.
Third is AFK cloakers.
I'm sorry, but something needs to be done here. I'd love to hear what people think. In my opinion it should be made easy to find someone who is afk cloaking within 15-20 minutes. One change I like is that cloak wears off after 20 minutes and cannot be reactivated for 60 seconds. This would provide your enemy with a 45-60 second time frame to attempt to track you down. If you are "actively" at the keyboard, this really shouldn't be a problem for you. I'd like to hear other changes that would require a covert ops pilot to fly actively and intelligently to remain perma-cloaked. I really believe it should be an active challenge to remain permanently hidden from the enemy.
I think it would be fun to have a game of cat and mouse game anyway. So nerf local, so you can't even see if there is a cloaker in the system (active or afk), then allow a 6-8 person search team be able to gather intel about their own system. If they *suspect* there is a cloaker in the system, let them further continue to search for that cloaker (this means it should be possible to suspect that there is a cloaker in the system even if there is not, imagine looking for a cloaked ship that doesn't exist! You'd never know if you were mistaken!)
Anyway I'm going to listen intently to everyone's opinions, even invite friends to this discussion. I'll compile a list of suggestions based on majority opinion.
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mkd0815
Panda Team
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Posted - 2010.05.05 09:00:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Azshann
First is the Local channel. What is the majority consensus on the instant intel gathering provided by the Local Channel.
make local like in a WH ... unless you talk you are not visible
Originally by: Azshann
Second is Active Cloakers.
I believe anyone who is "actively" playing the game, should be very hard to find if not impossible. In that the regards the cloaking system is perfect as is.
cloaking is fine
Originally by: Azshann
Third is AFK cloakers.
I'm sorry, but something needs to be done here. I'd love to hear what people think. In my opinion it should be made easy to find someone who is afk cloaking within 15-20 minutes. One change I like is that cloak wears off after 20 minutes and cannot be reactivated for 60 seconds. This would provide your enemy with a 45-60 second time frame to attempt to track you down. If you are "actively" at the keyboard, this really shouldn't be a problem for you. I'd like to hear other changes that would require a covert ops pilot to fly actively and intelligently to remain perma-cloaked. I really believe it should be an active challenge to remain permanently hidden from the enemy.
I think it would be fun to have a game of cat and mouse game anyway. So nerf local, so you can't even see if there is a cloaker in the system (active or afk), then allow a 6-8 person search team be able to gather intel about their own system. If they *suspect* there is a cloaker in the system, let them further continue to search for that cloaker (this means it should be possible to suspect that there is a cloaker in the system even if there is not, imagine looking for a cloaked ship that doesn't exist! You'd never know if you were mistaken!)
Anyway I'm going to listen intently to everyone's opinions, even invite friends to this discussion. I'll compile a list of suggestions based on majority opinion.
if local would be like WH you dont know they are there because they are afk and because of that not chatting in local or attacking stuff so they do NOT make a difference
and more or less AFK cloaking and waiting for a easy target ( while reading a book, working or watching some movies ) is a solid and ok tactic in EVE ( and also in any other kind of fictional and real warfare where hitting behind enemy lines/from suprise to install FEAR and PANIC is always high on the list of successful ops. )
IF we would get a decent local like in a WH ( at least in 0.0 and lowsec ..) noone would care about AFK cloakers anymore. not the CLOAK is the problem but the LOCAL chat where you see them .....
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.05.05 09:15:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 05/05/2010 09:15:25 Local is fine.
Cloaks are fine. AFK cloaking is fine, too.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
foksieloy
Minmatar Universal Army Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.05.05 10:28:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Local is fine. Cloaks are fine. AFK cloaking is fine, too.
This.
Also, not this thread again... _______________________ We come for our people! |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2010.05.05 11:42:00 -
[5]
If you have a weak mind, I can understand how much an AFK (not even there apparently) cloaker can hurt you. Maybe you should start some counselling to try and resolve your fears.
That is of course if they are actually afk, I use 2 computers when playing and tend to have my scout on my laptop. That char doesn't move for hours, but I do scan. Does this fit into your world of afk?
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Concubinia Scarlett
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Posted - 2010.05.05 12:53:00 -
[6]
Kinda works OK atm, but things I think would be changes for the better:
1) Local
You only show up in local after you drop gate cloak or the session change timer expires, whichever happens first. (Unless you login in system.)
Would give just enought time to make scanning (while under gate cloak), warping and catching people in a fast tackle ship a real possibility without making it OP.
2) AFK Cloaking
Cloaking in general is fine, as is AFK cloaking. I do, however, think that in systems where sovereignty is held there could be some scope for limiting AFK cloakiness. As there are i-hub upgrades to increase the value of systems (Ore prospecting array, pirate detection array etc) there could be a mechanic to limit afk cloakers essentialy shutting down these systems.
Maybe a module similar to a cyno jammer, with an expensive upkeep that prevents cloaking by anyone system-wide. This would not only mean that AFK cloaking wcould be stopped, but also that macro ratters/miners could not warp to safe & cloak, kinda a double edged sword Fair enough they could still warp to a station, but in combination with the local change proposed above it could give people time to bubble the station in a fast dictor.
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Haramir Haleths
Caldari Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2010.05.05 15:04:00 -
[7]
Nah, this would kill the cloaking mechanic. And EvE without Cloaks is not good for Freelancer and smaller Corps etc. They need the Cloaky Ships.
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Azshann
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Posted - 2010.05.05 15:07:00 -
[8]
"This.
Also, not this thread again..."
If you read the post, I'm actually looking for ways to reward and even enhance the abilities of Active Cloakers. I believe active cloaking could be made even more exciting!
Local is fine? Let's pretend that local never existed. One day CCP announces, they guys we're going to make a channel that reveals everybody's name in the system, including their employment history and status the very moment they enter the system, and will remain so until they leave the system!
I'm sure this would have been greeted with bad tempers. Make a long story short. It should take effort to scan and know what's in your system, in fact it should require a small team (3-4) of players to effectively maintain a steady and constant flow of information about your system. It should take a medium sized team to find a bad cloaker (6-8 players). It should be all but impossible to find a good cloaker no matter how many people you have searching for them.
On top of that of more abilities and tools should be made available to intel gathers, however at an increased cost of being revealed or detected depending on the ability being used or how many abilities are being used at the same time or within the same period of time.
I really believe that a fun, challenging and rewarding intel and counter intel system can and should be implemented into this game. Of course, making it harder to both gather and counter intel, would make make this career option less viable for the masses of players that currently engage in it (oh noes!).
So that's my side of the argument. Please don't say that local is fine either, you know its not, so does everyone else. If it was so fine, why wasn't it implemented for W-space (it wasn't taken away from normal space because there would have been too many lazy whiners).
Make intel gathering a real career path! Make counter intel an equal career path!
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2010.05.05 15:36:00 -
[9]
This thread will not find a "majority opinion". These threads never do. You will find an outspoken minority on both sides who will end up debating each other.
With that said -
I support W-space style Local for 0.0
I think cloaking (active and AFK) is fine and should be left as-is. Seriously it's one of the best features of the game that when something happens at home we can hit a safe spot, cloak up, go afk and deal with it (whether it takes 10 minutes or 6 hours). No, we shouldn't have to log out, we all pay for 23/7 access.
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Scoto Timta
EveMerc's
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Posted - 2010.05.05 15:37:00 -
[10]
I have spent a lot of time in w-space and absolutely LOVE the absence of local.
One idea I had for eliminating local in regular space, while still allowing for relatively easy intel (but not instant, zero effort), is that each gate would keep a log of the transits over the past hour (or whatever time period is appropriate). It would tell you who went through, and which direction (in/out). Maybe even a timestamp. By querying each gate in a system, you could determine if a particular player is in/out of the system. Those queries might be able to be done from anywhere in system, or maybe it would require you to be within some range of the gate.
I can immediately see two potential problems with my idea.
1) Very busy systems like trade hubs, travel chokepoints, etc... The list at each gate could be VERY long. In order to be useful, we would need some sort of filtering ability.
2) A player jumping back/forth would "clog" the list with entries. If there are timestamps and it is sorted by time, then that would be fairly easy to decipher, but if there is concern about database lag from long lists, then only save the most recent transit through a gate by any particular player, and delete the prior entry.
This would actually provide extra intel not available right now. You would potentially be able to see that a large group of your enemies passed through a gate 5 minutes ago. Hmmm.... gatecamp on the other side? So it would definitely change the game somewhat. But rather than instant, no-effort intel you would have to check the gate logs and apply some logic/reasoning.
There are probably other problems that I'm missing, so feel free to pick my idea apart, not that you need my permission.
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Azshann
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Posted - 2010.05.05 15:42:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Azshann on 05/05/2010 15:44:02 Your input is appreciated Scoto, I'll take it into consideration. Let's hear some more ideas guys! Even Santiago's suggestion of changing the local for 0.0 only would be nice. Pirates would have to be watching all the gates into their system to know that you entered. You also wouldn't know how many pirates there were, win-win for both sides (unless you're a WoW noob).
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.05 16:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 05/05/2010 16:35:52 I'm all for nixing local, by making it work the same way as in wormholes. (If I had it my way, it would be gone from everywhere.)
1) Carebears don't have instant knowledge of someone scary being in system.
2) Gankers don't have instant knowledge of a juicy target being in system.
3) Whether AFK or sitting in a safe spot, cloaking in system would make no difference to intel whatsoever. You would need to either move around and keep eyes on what's going on, or uncloak and scan to see who's in system.
4) Fleet movement becomes less obvious, and so do defensive traps.
5) Talented scanners are now very valuable.
It would make the game much more interesting and far less predictable in every mode of play, IMHO. The idea of checking gate logs is interesting, but I would reserve that ability for the person paying for the upkeep of the gate.
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Mopneq
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Posted - 2010.05.05 17:38:00 -
[13]
The one thing I'd like to see, as a dweller of 0.0 is a way to find cloakers.
Lets assume that you're doing things right, camp the gates 23/7, but a cloaky bomber or two get through anyway, maybe a recon. Can't catch em all.
At this point, there is nothing at all you can do. Mining is shut down, since the gank is so fast, defenders can't show up from other parts of a system, and even attentive defenders quite likely can't protect a hulk or 5 against people willing to suicide a recon and bombers into them. What I'd like is a way for a 100% active, well organized corp to defend themselves. Semi-AFK cloakers, who hole up in a system, then gank when able, is very one sided in that battle.
tl;dr -- Gimp local (delayed? WH style?, whatever), boost the ability of an active defender to defend.
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Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
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Posted - 2010.05.05 18:51:00 -
[14]
Instant Local is one of the most absurd mechanics in Eve imho. I loath it.
As someone who spends a lot of time as a scout I honestly feel that Local undermines the entire profession. Thanks to Local it is largely irrelevant how much time you put in to training for cov-ops/ recon etc. as you will still be more effective with a 2 day old alt in an Ibis. (Primarily in a war-dec situation). This changes slightly if cyno's are important to you, but when simply acting as a scout for a war-fleet or roaming gang, the unknown alt is superior.
This is just wrong. Ok, so it creates a little more revenue for CCP, but still wrong.
I would be in favour of making Local act as in WH space across the board, be it 0.0 or high sec.
Failing this, the least I personally would like to see is the removal of standing/ history etc. from local. If you just have to have local then so be it, but nerf the amount of information it gives drastically. If you want to know if there are war targets in system go look for them. Not sure if everyone in system is blue? Tough, fly carefully or die. Unless you can memorise the name of every single red/ blue pilot then Local becomes less useful as an intel tool, once again putting the onus back on the scouts to learn their trade well, and pursue it effectively.
As to cloaking.....no major problem with it, never died to an AFK cloaker, have killed several, don't really need another thread on this tbh. ----
Originally by: Sir Carnage
Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37?
I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12
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Slimy Worm
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Posted - 2010.05.05 19:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Slimy Worm on 05/05/2010 19:06:39 It would be impossible to find fights if local were made like wormholes given all ships cluttering POSes in most nullsec systems. If d-scan could be set to exclude ships in POSes then it would be doable.
Regardless, it would reduce the ability to make ISK in nullsec which, compared to highsec mission running, is already hard for people who can't solo or duo sanctums and havens.
AFK cloaking isn't a problem. It can easily be defeated by ratting in a semi-pvp fit and calling in backup. Get in a fleet with your buddies in local and you'll be fine.
EDIT: I looked up Azshann on battleclinic and he has no record. I've concluded he's another afk cloak whine sockpuppet.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.05 19:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Slimy Worm
Regardless, it would reduce the ability to make ISK in nullsec which, compared to highsec mission running, is already hard for people who can't solo or duo sanctums and havens.
How? I've heard this said before, but no one ever bothered to back the statement up. I'm curious to hear the argument.
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AFK Cloaker
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.05.05 20:19:00 -
[17]
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.05.05 20:42:00 -
[18]
If you don't like local, you can always hunt in WHs. What is the problem?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Alexei Khrazhya
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Posted - 2010.05.05 21:05:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Alexei Khrazhya on 05/05/2010 21:07:47 Perhaps another type of deployed equipment could be implemented.
Maybe some beacons/probes which must be placed in a rough shape around a system (perhaps a triangle or square, with a min and max distance for them to become functional), which will somehow make cloaked ships easier to detect when within the probes. Requires at least 3 probes, each with a minimum and maximum range. More can be deployed (up to a limit) for increased range or for enhanced detection.
The probes would be destructible by environment/enemy players, and also re-usable. Perhaps once the beacons are in place they would have to be manually "pinged" and would provide some kind of sensor image to be interpreted for the possible presence of cloaked ships (automatically revealing a cloaked ship seems too powerful).
Just a very rough idea, and several problems arise, but it's something to think about. Just throwing it out there.
EDIT - By the way, count me 100% on board for adjustment of Local. As suggested a couple times so far, I think the best option is to make everyone invisible in local until they talk in it, in which case they are only visible to those who were in Local at the time, and perhaps only for a short time.
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Jeneroux
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.05 21:36:00 -
[20]
A minority percentage of the Eve subscribers participate in the forums.
Any conclusion based on this small sample of the player is meaningless.
The majority opinion is to not read forums.
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Plocsk
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Posted - 2010.05.05 21:45:00 -
[21]
Removing the local just switches the focus from watching local to spamming d-scan.
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Rellik B00n
Minmatar Lethal Death Squad
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Posted - 2010.05.05 21:51:00 -
[22]
IN MY OPINION IF, FROM THE WORD CLOAK, YOU CHANGE THE C FOR A P, THE L FOR AN E, THE O FOR AN N, THE A FOR AN I AND THE K FOR AN S THEN YOU WILL SEE WHAT YOU ARE FOR MAKING THIS THREAD, AGAIN. + LDSkill+hireLDS |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.05 22:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jeneroux A minority percentage of the Eve subscribers participate in the forums.
Any conclusion based on this small sample of the player is meaningless.
The majority opinion is to not read forums.
And yet this small sample of players has had a huge effect on every balance issue to ever grace the Test Server Feedback forum, or the Features and Ideas Discussion forum.
And an awful lot of balance changes got their momentum in the Assembly Hall, or spilled over from Ships and Modules. Not to mention CSM candidates are chosen in the forums by the small sample of players that use them.
I'm not sure your point is all that valid.
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Azshann
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Posted - 2010.05.06 02:34:00 -
[24]
Keep the ideas and opinions coming. By the way, if you are "tired of these threads" why did you click on them? Just say you like things the way they are, if enough people do, then nothing should be changed.
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Greymoon Avatar
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Posted - 2010.05.06 03:29:00 -
[25]
In empire space, and in lowsec keep local as is... In nullsec make local like WH space, unless you talk you don't show. Give Sov holders in Nullsec a POS module to "Activate" Local intel if they want to keep local as is. Cloaking is just fine as is. AFK Cloaking will not be an issue once you fix local.
.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.06 08:08:00 -
[26]
Wait you are saying if you remove local you cant sit in 0.0 outside a pos/station cloaked with complete immunity and no risk at all anymore? How does that work?
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Zewron
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.06 08:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Furb Killer Wait you are saying if you remove local you cant sit in 0.0 outside a pos/station cloaked with complete immunity and no risk at all anymore? How does that work?
Exactly! The only answer is scanweaving. It would be a new tactic allowing gangs of scouts to increase each other's probing capabilities up to a point where they can track down anything: cloakers, quarks, gluons, gravitons, perhaps even strings! Sign if you support this rubbish!
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2010.05.06 09:25:00 -
[28]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 06/05/2010 09:25:42
Originally by: Slimy Worm Edited by: Slimy Worm on 05/05/2010 19:06:39 It would be impossible to find fights if local were made like wormholes given all ships cluttering POSes in most nullsec systems. If d-scan could be set to exclude ships in POSes then it would be doable.
This is complete rubbish.
Funny how you can narrow scan down to 15/5 degrees hit alt-x to bring up moons and voila confirm/deny presence of a POS in direction of given ships.
Impossible for you perhaps. For those that actually know how to accurately and quickly use the scanner its not an issue.
**edit**LOL at hidden agenda anti-cloak thread. Suck my balls
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Jejju
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Posted - 2010.05.06 11:27:00 -
[29]
The problem with eliminating local is that it will have a significant and unpredictable impact on game play. To pick one example, removing local would create a 'job' of sitting cloaked at key gates and reporting all ships to an intel channel.
That doesn't sound like a fun thing to do in a game.
I wouldn't volunteer to do it.
I want to see alliances succeed because of good piloting and FCing, not because of drudge work.
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Nan Quan
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Posted - 2010.05.06 14:38:00 -
[30]
Local in empire: No change, CONCORD keeps track on all Local in 0.0: Same as WH, only visible if you speak
Cloak:
Prototype cloak - 5-15 min + 2 min recloak. Meaning that the first 5 minutes are "guaranteed" cloak time, after that up to the point of complete failure (15 min) there is a chanse that the cloak fails. This chance increases every minute after the first 5... If you decloak manually before the cloak fails then the current cooldown is used.
Improved cloak - 30-60 minutes + 2 min recloak. Same as above only longer and less chanse of failure.
Cov ops cloak - No change. This cloak was meant to be used extencively behind enemy lines. This cloak never fails.
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