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Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.11 13:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Omar Khayyam on 11/05/2010 13:18:50 Edited by: Omar Khayyam on 11/05/2010 13:17:10 hi there, i also have a vargur and bought a golem. it kills battleships quicker than the vargur but in a golem i am losing time for getting ships in range (at least i start to hit battleships while they are approaching in my vargur and also i can one shot enemy frigs with 3.5sec. weapon cycle before they start to web/scram my ship)..
so imho, when vargurs range added to the equation, both golem and vargur have nearly same mission completition times in general. but im confused with forum posts about how golem is the best marauder in game and i decided to post my fitting to see if i am doing something wrong.
P.S: i have more than enough tank for any mission and im seeking for a faster mission completition time..
[Golem, FatBird] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier I Explosion Dampening Field II Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Target Painter II
Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
Warrior II x5 Valkyrie II x5
and my vargur setup:
[Vargur, Matarian Fury] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Shield Boost Amplifier II Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Tracking Computer II Explosion Dampening Field II Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II
Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L Small Tractor Beam I
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Warrior II x5 Valkyrie II x5
one last thing: i have nearly identical gunnery and missile skills. the lowest support skill level is 4 and most of them are 5.. ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :) |
ZW Dewitt
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Posted - 2010.05.11 13:20:00 -
[2]
BCU II -> CN BCU DC II -> CN BCU SBA -> 100MN AB Rigs -> Rigs II
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Moni Toimikone
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.11 13:27:00 -
[3]
Using Javelin Torpedoes and t2 rigs you get about 60km range on those torpedoes. Most npc spawns will be in range right when you land to the mission, but sometimes you have to move a little to get in range. The AB will help with that.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/ |
Dread Phantom
Caldari End Game.
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Posted - 2010.05.11 13:32:00 -
[4]
I find 2 salvagers 1 tractor to be faster, assuming you salvage most wrecks
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.05.11 13:36:00 -
[5]
both of your fits are wrong. luckily for you angels aren't very far away. "One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic." |
Hyey
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Posted - 2010.05.11 13:41:00 -
[6]
Why on earth are you using a damage control on either of your setups?
And a SBA? Marauders have an inbuilt bonus that negates the need for an SBA.
If you want the most out of your 750mil isk hull for the love of god use faction damage mods. ~~ Hyey
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Randy Taylor
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Posted - 2010.05.11 13:50:00 -
[7]
On your Varg:
2 x Gyro II -> 2 x RF Gyro (you can switch the 3rd too, but you get the most DPS boost from the first two). DC II -> TE II (you don't need it on PvE ship) Large Ambit I -> Large Burst Aerator II (the TE II offsets losing one ambit rig, and the LBA II rig gives you a nice DPS bump) SBA II -> 100 MN AB II / RF 100 MN AB (don't need the SBA, so get to gates quicker) |
Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.11 14:10:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Omar Khayyam on 11/05/2010 14:12:06 i guess most of my problems are coming from lack of faction damage mods and from that nasty damage control unit in both ship.(but i cannot stand against having extra resists with no cap cost)
i've decided to use ab instead of a SBA because %95 of the missions i dont move my ship, just pull them to my ship, kill smaller ships at >40km and kill+salvage battleships in <40km with vargur. and there were several times i saved my ship at half armor (i usually play this game at late night and i might get distracted often).
but maybe i might use a target painter/web for helping out my drones or a 3rd painter for my golem? ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :) |
Hyey
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Posted - 2010.05.11 14:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Hyey on 11/05/2010 14:33:23
Originally by: Omar Khayyam Edited by: Omar Khayyam on 11/05/2010 14:12:06 i guess most of my problems are coming from lack of faction damage mods and from that nasty damage control unit in both ship.(but i cannot stand against having extra resists with no cap cost)
i've decided to use ab instead of a SBA because %95 of the missions i dont move my ship, just pull them to my ship, kill smaller ships at >40km and kill+salvage battleships in <40km with vargur. and there were several times i saved my ship at half armor (i usually play this game at late night and i might get distracted often).
but maybe i might use a target painter/web for helping out my drones or a 3rd painter for my golem?
There is absolutely no point in additional resists if your tank isn't breaking in the first place. The whole goal of a mission running boat is to have the absolute minimum tank possible so that it won't break so that you can gank the ship out completely.
Three TP's is generally the recommended amount for a Golem but that usually requires your tank setup to be a Pith-A type Medium and 2x CN invulns.
A properly fit Vargur and a properly fit Golem are going to have relatively similar mission running times. Golem is generally considered better only because torpedos are pretty much fire and forget. ~~ Hyey
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Missm Uppet
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.05.11 14:43:00 -
[10]
Do you have missile projection skill at 5 as well as missle bombardment at 5? Both skills add 10% to your missile range - having them at 4 is just not acceptable. Also target navigation prediction at 5 is a must.
You get those skills at 5 plus the 5% speed implant plus t2 rigs and you will not often be in need of any additional range.
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Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.11 15:59:00 -
[11]
@hyey:
i guess i will head for the a-type shield booster + CN invuls at the first place because they can both improve my vargur and golem setup thanks for the advice..
@ Missm Uppet:
i have 12 days left for both skills at level 5
i guess i will buy the implant and t2 rigs after buying a-type booster and cn invuls..
::sigh:: looks like my main problem is i need to spend another bil. for the faction modules lol ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :) |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2010.05.11 16:17:00 -
[12]
mmmm imo both fits are so and so, the var could benefit from a second TE that boost tracking too and not just faloff and a rof rig will boost your dps
also the pithum C... a gist C will probably be better
faction dmg mods are a must to get some more dmg but about var vs golem... well personally i prefer the var too :P but indeed they are pretty close
but about the comment dont forget that the proj boost is kinda recent and most mission runners where alredy happy with their golem so is kinda natural to find most posts about the golem on the forum
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2010.05.11 16:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hyey
And a SBA? Marauders have an inbuilt bonus that negates the need for an SBA.
They have built in damage bonus too, reason not to fit damage mods? It's called playing your ship strength.
Originally by: Hyey
If you want the most out of your 750mil isk hull for the love of god use faction damage mods.
Seems you do use damage mods, so your bonus talk makes no sense whatsoever. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.05.11 16:53:00 -
[14]
4xCN BCUs are a must. (They also free up a surprising amount of CPU.)
The Medium Pith-C + SBA II (or a cheap Gist C-Type SBA) + 3x Hardeners is plenty. You won't be able to do the AE bonus room, but you can do any other mission with it if you pay attention to triggers.
The AB isn't necessary except for that one mission with the ridiculous distance between gates.
Upgrading to a Pith-A and CN Invuls can make you a suicide gank target.
With Missile Projection and Missile Bombardment skills at V, plus a +5% missile velocity implant, plus 2xMissile Speed II rigs, you can hit 60km with Javelin torps. (2xspeed rigs are better than 1xspeed + 1xrange rigs. The range is almost exactly the same and your torp rof is less than the TP cycle.)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Hyey
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Posted - 2010.05.11 20:37:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Hyey on 11/05/2010 20:40:02
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Originally by: Hyey
And a SBA? Marauders have an inbuilt bonus that negates the need for an SBA.
They have built in damage bonus too, reason not to fit damage mods? It's called playing your ship strength.
Originally by: Hyey
If you want the most out of your 750mil isk hull for the love of god use faction damage mods.
Seems you do use damage mods, so your bonus talk makes no sense whatsoever.
I hate when people nitpick at a post just to make a "bad" point. You put damage mods on ships period.
Again, the point of a mission running ship is to run the mission as fast as possible. To do that you try to give your ship as much DPS as possible while allowing the minimum tank you need to finish the mission.
If the Marauder class didn't have a shield boost bonus I would recommend an SBA on them but since this isn't the case there is no need for an SBA.
As for the damage mods? They increase dps, you want increased DPS...not necessarily increased tanking. Are we clear?
@post above me
becoming a suicide gank target is largely negated by not flying in a mission hub. There are plenty of level 4 agents in high sec systems that aren't that highly traveled at all, by ninja salvagers or suicide gankers. This of course requires you to make ammo runs every now and then but almost every system is within 6-7 jumps of at least a minor production hub so it's not an issue.
~~ Hyey
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.11 21:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hyey
Again, the point of a mission running ship is to run the mission as fast as possible. To do that you try to give your ship as much DPS as possible while allowing the minimum tank you need to finish the mission.
I think I mostly agree with you, but I would say your first goal is to fit for the best applied damage you can, followed by the best tank you can fit with the slots that are left. On a ship like the Vargur, you can fit for tremendous damage as well as a very good tank at the same time, with virtually no compromise.
I would say though, that any slot you would put a Shield Boost Amplifier would be better served by fitting another Hardener instead. Resists are better than rep amount, because it increased the amount of time it takes your shields to get down to a point where you need to rep them.
That in turn gives your capacitor more time to regenerate, and puts your small but still present shield recharge rate to better use.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2010.05.11 21:33:00 -
[17]
dont agree that much the no need for tank... these are expensive ships a good tank imo is must to have... there are some mission with decent dps and ther's always the risk to mess something up
also a good tank can permit a more aggressive approach that can translate in faster missioning... to sacrifice good dps for tank for sure is not that good, but both the golem and the var have not this problem so i see no reason to not aim to a decent tank
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.05.11 22:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
I would say though, that any slot you would put a Shield Boost Amplifier would be better served by fitting another Hardener instead. Resists are better than rep amount, because it increased the amount of time it takes your shields to get down to a point where you need to rep them.
Not always. If you need to tank more than two damage types (i.e. you need Invul IIs,) the SBA can make sense. The AE bonus room damage is (6%em, 7%therm, 21%kin, 66%exp). For a Golem with a Pith-C Medium SB: * SBA II, 1xExp, 2xInvul: 582 defense * 2xExp, 2xInvul: 534 defense * 2xExp, 1xKin, 1xInvul: 520 defense * 2xExp, 2xKin: 436 defense
Quote: That in turn gives your capacitor more time to regenerate, and puts your small but still present shield recharge rate to better use.
Using a Pith medium SB means you're pretty close to being cap stable enough to either permarun or run for 10+ minutes the SB. Sometimes laziness (aka having less distractions) is worth the few percentage points of defense that a 4th hardener would provide.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Backho
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Posted - 2010.05.11 22:05:00 -
[19]
This is the "minimum golem" The minimum specs you should have on a golem
[Golem, FatBird] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System II
X-Large Shield Booster II Explosion Dampening Field II Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II Target Painter II Target Painter II Target Painter II
Rage torps for Battleships within 30km Jav torps for long range Faction ammo for everything else, VERY IMPORTANT!! Siege Missile Launcher II, Siege Missile Launcher II, Siege Missile Launcher II, Siege Missile Launcher II, Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I Salvager I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
Warrior II x5 Valkyrie II x5
Dont bother overtanking. If you worry about dc/crash, replace it with a super-powered faction Medium shield booster.500 dps tank is enough
However never never never never never ever compromise with gank Faction ammo + 3 TP will one hit BC//cruiser with a very high chance
Since your salvage skill is low, stick with 1 tractor 2 salvager. Always always only salvage large wrecks. Mission finish = get out of there.
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Hyey
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Posted - 2010.05.11 22:13:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Hyey on 11/05/2010 22:13:53
Originally by: Ath Amon dont agree that much the no need for tank... these are expensive ships a good tank imo is must to have... there are some mission with decent dps and ther's always the risk to mess something up
also a good tank can permit a more aggressive approach that can translate in faster missioning... to sacrifice good dps for tank for sure is not that good, but both the golem and the var have not this problem so i see no reason to not aim to a decent tank
By the time you can afford a Vargur you should have more than enough mission experience to never make such a huge mistake as to lose your ship. Seriously I know that I'm not the only one that can run level 4's without thinking about it.
I run a golem with an AB, Medium Pith-A type, 2 CN invulns and the rest TP's. I switch out the AB for an SBA for things like AE bonus room and EA5(When I'm not paying attention to range) but it's more or less just a buffer, I don't lose the DPS by doing that. A 3 TP golem one shots every BC and almost every elite cruiser.
That golem kills things so fast it's astounding. EA5 and AE bonus room out dps your tank for MAYBE a minute so that when you break even your shields are maybe at 50%...if the enemy got a lot of good hits on you. The fit is more than cap stable if you aren't perma running the AB.
I don't vehemently deny the need for an SBA but I do and have done AE bonus room without an SBA...if I had level 5 Marauders I wouldn't even bother with an SBA for that ever. ~~ Hyey
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Nerogk Shorn
Caldari Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.05.12 01:38:00 -
[21]
I found something very surprising about this thread.
Apparently mission carebears are way more intense and hardcore about their fits and tactics than any PVP pilot. You guys are seriously frightening with your "WTF is wrong with you. Stop fitting your ships like a ******."
I just didn't know you guys were all gung ho about this sorta thing.
The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
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Ramiera DaMorre
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Posted - 2010.05.12 05:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn I found something very surprising about this thread.
Apparently mission carebears are way more intense and hardcore about their fits and tactics than any PVP pilot. You guys are seriously frightening with your "WTF is wrong with you. Stop fitting your ships like a ******."
I just didn't know you guys were all gung ho about this sorta thing.
Well, carebearing is all about ISK and the most effective way to get it. PvP is about having FUN (whether by wrecking someone else's fun or by just flying around blowing **** (and yourself) up) so no wonder.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.12 05:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ramiera DaMorre
Well, carebearing is all about ISK and the most effective way to get it. PvP is about having FUN (whether by wrecking someone else's fun or by just flying around blowing **** (and yourself) up) so no wonder.
Exactly. And maximizing isk in a given amount of time means more time and cash to do something else FUN.
Really, L4 missions are Applied DPS In = Isk Out. It's a mature science. There are a lot of loose variables in PVP, on the other hand...
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.12 07:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Nerogk Shorn I found something very surprising about this thread.
Apparently mission carebears are way more intense and hardcore about their fits and tactics than any PVP pilot. You guys are seriously frightening with your "WTF is wrong with you. Stop fitting your ships like a ******."
I just didn't know you guys were all gung ho about this sorta thing.
No, I'm equally *****y about PVP fits.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.12 07:12:00 -
[25]
thanx for all those posts guys, whenever i think i know much about this game, tons of new things to learn appear :)
as i said before, i dont have much problem with my tank, im a carebear for nearly 2 years (you can understand this from me having 2 marauders) so i know how to handle aggro and triggers.. (and 0.0 miner for 2 more years before lvl4 missions).
from what i see from posts, first thing i have to do is investing on better defensive modules so i can open room for damage increasing and weapon enhancing modules.
btw the main reason i do missions because i got bored from being a carebear, so i earn 50-100mil in an hour (each miss. is takes about 20-25 mins) and then buy a pvp fit and play till i lose it (usually i lose it fast). but thats the fun part of this game for me ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :) |
Shatner19
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Posted - 2010.05.12 07:50:00 -
[26]
with shield tankers its really not a big deal to have faction/complex hardeners, so increasing your tank isnt gonna help you do missions faster. like everyone else says get faction/officer damage modules, but even then both ships are going to be on par with each other.
for me the Vargur with tech 2 fit, breezes through missions faster than a golem because it can go through sub-bs targets faster. 800mm auto's track so well with the vargur that it can one shot frigs at 10km; while on the golem you really need drones to do that for you. If you want to take sub-bs ships down quickly then you have to mess with target painters and with its long cycle time that tends to be the limiting factor. On the Vargur, however, you got <4 secs on your gun cycle time and you breeze through a lot of targets quickly, it might take more time dealing with battleships but you save more time dealing with the smaller stuff instead of leaving it to drones.
btw you should have 3gyro/2te in your low slots, and a free midslot for a tracking computer. Increasing your damage projection means at 40Km and below your doing *near* eft dps to targets.
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Omar Khayyam
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.12 11:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Shatner19 with shield tankers its really not a big deal to have faction/complex hardeners, so increasing your tank isnt gonna help you do missions faster. like everyone else says get faction/officer damage modules, but even then both ships are going to be on par with each other.
for me the Vargur with tech 2 fit, breezes through missions faster than a golem because it can go through sub-bs targets faster. 800mm auto's track so well with the vargur that it can one shot frigs at 10km; while on the golem you really need drones to do that for you. If you want to take sub-bs ships down quickly then you have to mess with target painters and with its long cycle time that tends to be the limiting factor. On the Vargur, however, you got <4 secs on your gun cycle time and you breeze through a lot of targets quickly, it might take more time dealing with battleships but you save more time dealing with the smaller stuff instead of leaving it to drones.
btw you should have 3gyro/2te in your low slots, and a free midslot for a tracking computer. Increasing your damage projection means at 40Km and below your doing *near* eft dps to targets.
even with all skills at 5 and other things, imho vargur is still par with golem, i can see that from comparing mission times with similar setups, golem kills battleships and bc's quick, vargur kills smaller ships with 1 shot with low weapon cycle speed (usually i kill small ships faster than my lock time on them), and kills bs/bc just a little bit longer than golem. Also with vargur you almost never have to move and try to keep ships in range (if they are not in range, just shoot and aggro them, but in golem you cant aggro someone from >60km).
my point was, golem might be the best marauder in the game, but after dominion, vargur might have catched its performance, or even its superior in some cases..
btw, i used to have 2xTE 3xGyro in my lows before the last patch but i thought there was too much stacking penalty with all those ambit rigs and other tracking modules.. ------------------------------------------------ cruisers used to be a great power when i started this game :) |
Ath Amon
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Posted - 2010.05.12 12:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Omar Khayyam btw, i used to have 2xTE 3xGyro in my lows before the last patch but i thought there was too much stacking penalty with all those ambit rigs and other tracking modules..
the thing about TE is that they boost both faloff and tracking so is way more benefical that ambits (that have also lesser gain) it will be better to go with 2 te and chose different rigs to boost your dps, tank or eventually cap usage
and about the range is kinda true that a varg doesnt need to move (i start popping frigs at 70/80 km) but running at the rats cut quite some time if you want to salvage
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Marko Riva
Adamant Inc.
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Posted - 2010.05.12 12:52:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Marko Riva on 12/05/2010 12:53:45 While I agree with most of the common sense dps > everything else there's a difference between the golem and Vargur. Golem does same dps within it's missile range so there's no need to get close to stuff. Vargur on the other hand varies it's dps with range, so with a ship like that you will "pull early"; while you're attacking one group you'll pull the second one before being done with the first, allowing them to come closer which means that once you start working on that second group your dps on them will be better.
This is ofcourse also partially achieved by fitting an AB but still, having a better tank allows you to to be attacked by more rats which means they'll be closer to after a while which means you'll do more dps to them. I have a seriously HUGE tank on my Mach allowing me to rush in, aggro early and a lot and just "shoot ****" while they rush towards me. That is also helped by the fact that missile damage partially depends on target velocity while turret damage depends on angular velocity, rats tend to rush towards you in a straight line... ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Want to learn combat/PVP? Alliance creation service |
Trebor Whettam
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Posted - 2010.05.12 15:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Missm Uppet Do you have missile projection skill at 5 as well as missle bombardment at 5? Both skills add 10% to your missile range - having them at 4 is just not acceptable. Also target navigation prediction at 5 is a must.
You get those skills at 5 plus the 5% speed implant plus t2 rigs and you will not often be in need of any additional range.
THIS.
The torp Golem is right on the knife's edge in terms of practical range. There are a lot of battleships that orbit just outside of faction torp range if you don't go all-in to maximize it.
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