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Heckter Grimm
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Posted - 2010.05.14 10:47:00 -
[1]
im not a linux user, but i really dont understand why they do not do this.
There are so few premium games for linux that im sure it would make them a lot of Isk. lol
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dracozna
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Posted - 2010.05.14 11:47:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Heckter Grimm im not a linux user, but i really dont understand why they do not do this.
There are so few premium games for linux that im sure it would make them a lot of Isk. lol
short story: They tried but nobody was there. They tried during the classic graphics time (few years ago) with Transgaming. Linux users found out premium graphics worked better with wine. Only few users used the official linux version. CCP stopped support because not enough people where using the official linux version.
There's a dev-blog about how many users are using different operating systems (can't find link at the moment). The linux-users are a very small percentage of the total amount of users.
tonight, we mine in Hek |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.14 12:44:00 -
[3]
That blog was somewhat after the Linux client was discontinued and it didn't have any stats on Wine. Most Wine users will show up as WinXP for the moment.
CCP were given details on how to test for Wine about a year ago so there is a chance that future such stats will show Wine as a separate line on the graph.
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
mrkaczor
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Posted - 2010.05.14 17:08:00 -
[4]
merging client with wine to make para-linux client requires very little work relay, 1 fullt ime Linux programmer should handle - Transgameing sux realy.
The numbers stuff it is CCP problem - it is relatively easy to check if your software is runned on wine. I think that there is even special windows registry entry in wine to check that - only for this propose - couple of times windows software on wine said to me - you are using wine, it works but fe. help don't work - plis download PDF from here :)
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Xianthar
STK Scientific The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.14 20:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Heckter Grimm im not a linux user, but i really dont understand why they do not do this.
There are so few premium games for linux that im sure it would make them a lot of Isk. lol
They'll never make a native client, the graphics engine is written using direct x. It would be nice to see they swap to opengl or at least support both pipelines but i wouldn't count on it.
A more realistic direction would be more customized support / testing under wine. Its possible for applications to detect that they are running on wine and act in a more optimized fashion.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.05.15 15:43:00 -
[6]
TL;DR They tried it it was failsauce GG. This is clearly a signature. |
mrkaczor
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Posted - 2010.05.16 08:52:00 -
[7]
Maybe in next voting for CSM we should vote for some1 playing on linux? If we could organize ourselves properly we would have high chances for linux players to have their voice heard?
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.17 14:36:00 -
[8]
I'd be happy if Eve reported Wine detection. Bringing that up in CSM might actually get answered/actioned on.
As for a native build - Eve client would have to compile to all platforms as a single codebase. And that means adopting the same strategy as Blizzard has done.
The first step in that process is to replace Direct3D with OpenGL. Second step would be to wedge a cross-platform library between Eve and DirectX so that Eve's source for all platforms is just the one edit like it is right now.
So, supporting each platform becomes an exercise in making sure the cross-platform library(s) has all the wanted features for each platform.
Actually, Direct3D is the tough part, if Eve just used OpenGL instead of Direct3D then I'm sure the rest would be handled just as well by Wine as if it was a native Linux build. No real need for Eve to be a fully native app.
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
mrkaczor
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Posted - 2010.05.18 06:58:00 -
[9]
Edited by: mrkaczor on 18/05/2010 06:59:10 EVE works pretty well on wine because it is mostly Python (that is cross-platform and don't need a lot of work from wine side), DirectX as always is pain in the ass ... They should create two renderers DirectX and OpenGL - ID Software can so CCP also should consider that :)
and yes - they should check how much ppl relay use WINE - this is so easy - one if statement checking windows registry at client startup and reporting it ...
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Zavulon Sukkot
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.05.21 16:05:00 -
[10]
TL;DR: Eve client uses 3rd party code parts for which I doubt a linux port exists. Makes implementing a native linux client a tad difficult. NATI. |
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.22 01:47:00 -
[11]
Third party issues would go away just by addressing them. Second party is the big problem.
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Aera Aiana
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.22 15:49:00 -
[12]
A native Linux client is probably out of the question, given their reliance on DirectX. Their use of Python really doesn't change anything. It's as much cross-platform as any other language is in it's uncompiled state. It's the bindings to os-specific features that are the problem.
I think most people would be fine if CCP could just test their stuff on Linux/Wine, too and avoid releasing broken stuff like the jukebox, if it isn't a really important feature. I mean most people probably wouldn't have minded to wait another patch for the jukebox, especially given how buggy it's on windows, too. -
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.23 04:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aera Aiana ... given their reliance on DirectX.
You know you just repeated what was said in the third post. :/ And I'll point out it's really only Direct3D where things would need a rework. The rest of DirectX can be quickly mapped one-for-one or left up to WineLib or whatever is chosen.
Quote: ... It's the bindings to os-specific features that are the problem.
That's just it, the downunder hardware is the same (Only the PC exists now.), the I/O functions are the same, the OSes provide the same feature set. It's just a case of getting the same Python support on all OSes. No change to the game code at all.
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Echrah
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Posted - 2010.05.24 05:51:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Echrah on 24/05/2010 05:53:00 "why don't CCP just create a built in game client for Ubuntu?" - There are many Linux distributions besides Ubuntu. Ubuntu is not even in my top 3.
Personally I would be happy knowing that there was just an official communication channel between the Wine project and CCP set up so that the Wine devs can easily chat to the CCP devs.
Realistically, CCP can/should communicate with CodeWeavers (the commercial entity driving the Wine project). Companies like to talk to Companies - not communities. That's why they talked to Transgamining (makers of the craptastic Cedega) the first time round. At that stage CodeWeavers did not have a specific version of their Wine product just for games (Codeweaver's "Crossover Games").
For those not in the know, Codeweaver's are the ones that pay the biggest names in the Wine project to work on Wine full time... Everybody wins!
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Draco Argen
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Posted - 2010.05.25 00:50:00 -
[15]
Eve is built using Python (very OS portable) and Microsoft DirectX 3D (Very not portable).
While a native client is plausible the initial investment, increase in additional QA and testing and support is unlikely to be considered worth it again given the skewed failure of the Transgaming attempt (ie Cedega version was pants so many people used wine, which showed as XP, as mentioned). CCP aren't willing financially to take this on in house, demonstrated by their agreement with transgaming (still how they do the Mac client btw). Rumors have it Codeweavers turned CCP down. I get the feeling the initial attempt was due to a push from internal staff who advocated linux and mac.
Wine was and continues to be a key in the downfall of an official or native client. It's just too damn good. It beat Cedega/Transgaming in fixes and response. It has not faltered since the abandonment by CCP. If anything it's improved.
Oh yes, it is true CCP devs openly discussed the stats that missed Wine. They explained how they got them, what they needed to see Wine as wine (Spike the winnt.dll osversion response). They did not accept the community's offers of regkeys or other methods of detection. Claiming they were un-guaranteed or insecure methods. Wine refuse to provide a secure or guaranteed method of detection because it's meant to be pretending to be windows (they think sneaky coders would write special blocks to stop it wine if they find it, or that it would encourage wine over native rewrites)
Catch 22 that one.
A patch could easily be written to make Wine report differently, but users would have to know they needed to patch and also run from source. Which is unlikely to happen for enough people to represent 90% of the Linux users.
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mrkaczor
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Posted - 2010.05.25 09:36:00 -
[16]
Thats why it would be nice to have Linux player in CSM ... we can do that ...
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.25 15:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Draco Argen Oh yes, it is true CCP devs openly discussed the stats that missed Wine. They explained how they got them, what they needed to see Wine as wine (Spike the winnt.dll osversion response). They did not accept the community's offers of regkeys or other methods of detection. Claiming they were un-guaranteed or insecure methods.
I missed reading any dev responses to the community offer.
That's a bogus excuse really. Interfaces change all the time and M$ is just as bad as anyone for changing the rules. CCP are just wanting to keep it clean for themselves is all.
Quote: ... A patch could easily be written to make Wine report differently,...
This approach would only be accepted by CCP if it was in main-line Wine.
Which then makes it more a question of how all other Win Apps would handle a non-Windoze ID. While the Eve client may be happy with such a solution there is bound to be other Apps that will spit the dummy.
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Myk'arius
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Posted - 2010.05.26 15:35:00 -
[18]
Why do people on these forums ask "Why does CCP [not] do X?" without considering the fundamental element of CCP's existence?
Cash Money.
Currently - Linux/wine users who wish to play Eve can. If they wish to play Eve on Windows they certainly can obtain a version of windows and run it, dual-boot, or not. Anyone who can setup Linux and Wine can go ahead and set up a dual-boot partition, even if its just for Windows. Or not, and continue to enjoy Eve via Wine.
If they produced a Linux-friendly version of Eve, those same users could switch over.
Can you reasonably state that this Linux-friendly version would pull in enough new users to even cover the salary of one full-time developer?
Read again- new, paying, users, not current users who switched to the Linux-version.
People its about cash money. PR aside, companies are here to profit. Employees work to get paid.
Until a linux-friendly Eve becomes a financial win, it simply won't happen. I don't see that as a reasonable situation in the near future, does anyone else?
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Ben AdonKar
Minmatar LifeLine Solutions
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Posted - 2010.05.27 07:55:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ben AdonKar on 27/05/2010 07:55:25
Originally by: Myk'arius Why do people on these forums ask "Why does CCP [not] do X?" without considering the fundamental element of CCP's existence?
Cash Money.
Currently - Linux/wine users who wish to play Eve can. ... [MORE HEAVY STUFF] ...
People its about cash money. PR aside, companies are here to profit. Employees work to get paid.
Until a linux-friendly Eve becomes a financial win, it simply won't happen. I don't see that as a reasonable situation in the near future, does anyone else?
\o/ Myk'arius, no need for sedition any more, we already got the new standing system. while l like part of your argument, l think there is more to it. most of the posters in this subforum also represent a subculture. some of them are even contributing code, part FOSS. and this is just the realm where we find the roots of the IGB in eve. CCP did a good job there imho, sure. but this is also about the input companies get from the community: code and a pool for recruiting.
so this is also about CCP'S image. personally l do not feel Transgaming presented themselves as good as they could have done for instance. word is CCP dropped their Cedega client because they felt it was not worth what they paid them for. and many deem them to be taking from wine without contributing as much as they should. a company like Codeweavers is more popular in the wine community, seems they are employing coders from wine and integrate the progress of their Crossover client there, too. since l have no expertise here l can not say whether true or not. but the image remains. not only does it influence many aware consumers, it especially influences the choices of the hot shots the head hunters want to hire.
one thing l am sure about though. CCP do not only care about their image. they care. remember the great PLEX aid for Haiti for instance. and we are part of this. now from this thread it seems we are at a stale as far as wine reporting in. then this:
Originally by: mrkaczor Thats why it would be nice to have Linux player in CSM ... we can do that ...
which is the solution of course! mrkaczor, you got it right! this is what the CSM is for. let's post it out here and employ eve-gate to make it happen! there is no solution for our demands from the software side? this is the way then. Myk'arius, you do have a point. guess you like to see things in a down to earth kind of way. l know l do. but this is about making ourselves heard. for starts. if we fail and everybody writes about it we still got coverage.
one might argue, that by means of election it is not possible to figure out the number of clients on wine. that may be a drawback. some might use other OSes for Eve but still sympathize and cast their vote for this candidate. some might just want to use wine and would therefore support the common cause. also wine support in itself will not make sufficient votes, but we got many things in common with all of Eve. so also here it is an opportunity to rally more.
csm5 election - the results are in! tells us about the numbers needed. now figure all using BSD, Solaris, Gnu/Linux and other kin voting focused at the next CSM elections. we may not be the largest part of Eve but we are determined. would have to be a respected candidate from our midst, like a channel op or someone who has contributed by means of supplying 3rd party progs for Eve or by means of forums, wikis, whatever. in any case able to deliver our message in a friendly but vocal way (rules me out). let's find the volunteer before the vote to bundle our efforts. all it needs is one click per account in the end!
Originally by: mrkaczor ... we can do that ...
in the long run time for affirmative action!
________________________________________ the drowning man who climbs on your shoulders to save himself is understandable-except when you see it happen in the drawing room.
dune |
Myk'arius
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:25:00 -
[20]
Quote: ...it would be nice to have Linux player in CSM ... we can do that ...
Quote: which is the solution of course! mrkaczor, you got it right! this is what the CSM is for.
Maybe you can help me out then... I was on slashdot earlier today, and saw an interesting thread about Eve. So I checked it out.
The breakdown goes like this: At a point in time CCP devs were gifting their in-game chars and/or their friend's chars with massive free stuff, and it got discovered. This led to many people basically up and leaving Eve or very nearly.
As a response CCP created the CSM with a given amount of oversight authority. After the public rage at their duplicity died down, they reduced the CSM's powers to basically nil.
So remind me how CCP is concerned with more than just image?
And if you could, please, tell me 2 or 3 things the CSM has done to influence the game in any substantial way over time... I've only been involved with Eve for a year or so, so I haven't the chance to really notice.
Quote: in any case able to deliver our message in a friendly but vocal way (rules me out).
Yea me too =) Direct honesty and blunt truth often tend to interfere with friendly negotiations.
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Karak Terrel
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Posted - 2010.05.28 09:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Myk'arius
As a response CCP created the CSM with a given amount of oversight authority. After the public rage at their duplicity died down, they reduced the CSM's powers to basically nil.
The CSM is not related to the incident with BOB who was long before the CSM was founded. The CSM is like a Customer Feedback and never had "oversight authority".
Originally by: Myk'arius
And if you could, please, tell me 2 or 3 things the CSM has done to influence the game in any substantial way over time... I've only been involved with Eve for a year or so, so I haven't the chance to really notice.
- The Skill Queue - The basic Changes for Dominion (Sov stuff, cause POS Warefare was sh**) - Changes to the Rewards for Faction Warfare
There are many other changes in the pipe: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Issues_in_Process
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Myk'arius
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Posted - 2010.05.28 18:49:00 -
[22]
Quote:
- The Skill Queue - The basic Changes for Dominion (Sov stuff, cause POS Warefare was sh**) - Changes to the Rewards for Faction Warfare
There are many other changes in the pipe: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Issues_in_Process
Like I said I'm relatively new here. But I do see a lot of things that make me honestly question the value existing customers vs new customers have when CCP allocates resources. But I can't say I'd do any differently were I running a business that was focused on making profit. And this relates directly to the question of why no Linux client, why PI when lag has suddenly spiked across the game post dominion, and so on.
and, you're telling me it took the CSM to convince CCP to create a skill que? That's crazy on a few levels.
But anyway, like I said before, when it becomes unplayable I'll be out.
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Karak Terrel
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Posted - 2010.05.29 10:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Myk'arius
Like I said I'm relatively new here. But I do see a lot of things that make me honestly question the value existing customers vs new customers have when CCP allocates resources. But I can't say I'd do any differently were I running a business that was focused on making profit. And this relates directly to the question of why no Linux client, why PI when lag has suddenly spiked across the game post dominion, and so on.
There was a Linux client but < 1% of the players used it. It makes absolutely no sense for CCP to invest time and money into something no one wants. wine is a good solution and it works rock stable. Watch this from 5:30 => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFEi2aIvsFA Why PI when there is still lag? Cause PI is a new feature and lag is a complex problem they work on all day to solve it? Do you really think if they put more ppl on the lag problem it is fixed faster? And meanwhile they should completely forget about the rest of the game? I like what they do and that they improve the game not only in space combat.
Originally by: Myk'arius
and, you're telling me it took the CSM to convince CCP to create a skill que? That's crazy on a few levels.
CSM showed them that WE REALLY WANT IT! . How many other game companies do you know where players have a voice like this?
Originally by: Myk'arius
But anyway, like I said before, when it becomes unplayable I'll be out.
But if you go, don't forget to give me your stuff
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.30 14:05:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Solbright on 30/05/2010 14:05:18
Originally by: Karak Terrel
Originally by: Myk'arius and, you're telling me it took the CSM to convince CCP to create a skill que? That's crazy on a few levels.
CSM showed them that WE REALLY WANT IT! . How many other game companies do you know where players have a voice like this?
Myk is right, it's still crazy that a queue was refused time and again in the first place.
There is quotes from devs right back in 2003 that said it'd never happen, including broken arguments for why not.
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.30 14:11:00 -
[25]
One of the arguments was they needed something to hold our attention!? I still laugh and cry at that one, it's such a head banger.
Now we've got Planetary Interaction for a whole new round of clockwork micro-managing ...
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
Ekrid
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Posted - 2010.05.31 07:28:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ekrid on 31/05/2010 07:31:17
Originally by: Heckter Grimm im not a linux user, but i really dont understand why they do not do this.
There are so few premium games for linux that im sure it would make them a lot of Isk. lol
for the same reason they remove everything.
classic clint: Not cost effective. well it sure stopped me paying a subscripton for two years until I borrowed a roomie's computer. good job losing income from me CCP.
Medium shader: Not cost effective.
Widescreen: Not cost effective. nevermind the people with visual problems who benefitted greatly from it.
Linux: Not cost effective, because as we all know Linux users won't pay money anyway amirite?
No seriously though, every decision they make to cut costs is eventually going to explode Eve online, but CCP doesnt care, by that time the'll have their MMO version of twilight running and a bunch of WoWtard-esque types will pay gobs of money to be **** on there as well.
tl:dr version: Because CCP is the epitomy of american spirit. quality means nothing. its all about the endline, even if it ends up breaking because its so **** poor down the road. see FW, interface, etc.
Originally by: Karak Terrel
- The Skill Queue - The basic Changes for Dominion (Sov stuff, cause POS Warefare was sh**) - Changes to the Rewards for Faction Warfare
did you really just invoke the skill queue as some great thing CCP has done? It took all of one day to put in the three lines of code to make it work, and look at the threads asking for it for years to see how long it took. Then look at the threads asking for rocket fix and a better interface going on SEVEN years now, and how its never happened.
yeah, CCP cares about more than fleecing the money off you right?
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mrkaczor
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Posted - 2010.05.31 08:28:00 -
[27]
Edited by: mrkaczor on 31/05/2010 08:31:54 Edited by: mrkaczor on 31/05/2010 08:31:01 About CSM - we need to prepare that for next elections (it will be in one year, right?) - any1 wana be candidate? Only votes could give us Linux/BSD player numbers.
We need one candidate only - that would be the best, in CSM he should talk about: - counting wine players - push CCP or codeweavers to delegate some1 to cooperate with wine project (would be nice). - client if possible (long term run - after player count and income count based on that) - other stuff ;)
Elected candidate should have blog about CSM work and eve-linux playing like http://eveaholic.mmmetrics.co.uk/ (it is dead - shouldn't be) I ll try to cantact Ix Forres.
PS. We need 1,5k votes - I think that a lot of windows players wil lvote too - it is possible!
PS2. Wana help - contact me in-game ;)
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Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2010.05.31 14:54:00 -
[28]
I don't think having a CSM member using Linux is that important.
Just solving the ID dilemma is all that's needed. From what has already been said, CCP will put it in if they are happy with the method. Maybe it's just a case of convincing CCP to go with the registry marker. I doubt a CSM member will have any more weight in achieving this.
Bale up T'Amber if you want someone that's already happily living outside the Windoze world.
----- The Eve Client - A Love Story - The single biggest fix CCP ever did to Eve. Keep it up! |
mrkaczor
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Posted - 2010.05.31 15:57:00 -
[29]
Edited by: mrkaczor on 31/05/2010 15:57:22
Originally by: Solbright I don't think having a CSM member using Linux is that important.
From technical point of view - you have a point but I is more for a symbol :) It would be nice to show that we are strong and organized ;)
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Fantus
Caldari FISKL GUARDS
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Posted - 2010.06.01 21:05:00 -
[30]
It would be nice to open Ubuntu Software Center and see EVE in it.
One can only hope...
And yes, I understand the difficulties in a true port. I always wonder why more studios don't use OpenGL ...
Visit my band at: http://www.reverbnation.com/c./a4/959447/432193/Artist/432193/Artist/link |
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