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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 15:55:00 -
[1]
Yes, yes, there are a lot of more or less good whines about this, but bear with me and read the following line:
My idea is simply to disallow warp jamming equipment on ships that also has a cloak. As simple as that.
Assuming that the main problem is with AFK cloakers, instead of creating a more or less advanced way to get around cloaking I just make cloaked ships less able to hold down a victim. If the victim is alert enough he should in most cases be able to get away alive if something like this was implemented.
AFK cloakers would be less of a problem as their only way to lock down a victim would be to have an uncloaked tackler which can be scanned down. At the same time we don't particularly affect the ships that rely on cloaks, most of them would never tackle during their typical use anyway.
Thoughts?
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Brackman
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2010.05.19 16:07:00 -
[2]
So basically you want to remove solo recons from the game while also making Arazu just about useless?
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 16:13:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Brackman So basically you want to remove solo recons from the game while also making Arazu just about useless?
Yes the Arazu is sort of a problem, it's main function being to warp scramble. I don't know what to do about that honestly, maybe give it another bonus and have the gallente non-cloaking recon get the warp scrambling bonus?
And regarding the solo recons; why would you use a solo recon with a warp scrambler for anything other than griefing?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.19 17:32:00 -
[4]
"An idea is unbalanced when only one side is considered. This idea has fallen over and is laying on its side..."
EVE is a game about non consensual PVP. you dont grief a player when you hunt him down in a cloaky ship.
1/10 for the effort ... seriously ... *facepalms*
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Brackman
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2010.05.19 17:39:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Daedalus II why would you use a solo recon with a warp scrambler for anything other than griefing?
Because I like recons and flying solo is fun, but I don't have the patience to sit cloaked in one system for long periods of time waiting for a ratter/miner to get careless (and then hope it's not a huge trap).
Why are AFK cloakers a problem? I find it odd to get spooked just by someone appearing in local. |
Face612
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Posted - 2010.05.19 17:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Brackman
Originally by: Daedalus II why would you use a solo recon with a warp scrambler for anything other than griefing?
Because I like recons and flying solo is fun, but I don't have the patience to sit cloaked in one system for long periods of time waiting for a ratter/miner to get careless (and then hope it's not a huge trap).
Why are AFK cloakers a problem? I find it odd to get spooked just by someone appearing in local.
I couldn't agree more. Cloakers are part of life in Null and low sec. Please people. this is getting stupid. Cloaking ships are not a "problem" or broken game mechanic. they are the way they are on purpose. i have killed them and been killed by them. get over it. move on.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 17:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Daedalus II on 19/05/2010 18:04:08
Originally by: Brackman
Why are AFK cloakers a problem? I find it odd to get spooked just by someone appearing in local.
I assume the problem with AFK cloakers are that they essentially go around the "appearing in local" part. By sitting afk for 10 hours the inhabitants of the system has to either assume they are about to be jumped at any second, or that they aren't going to get jumped at all.
In both cases their efficiency go down with no work needed at all for the cloakers. In the first case by having to equip a much heavier tank/keeping a hightend awareness/surrouding himself with friends at all times/staying docked up. In the second case he's not ready to get jumped and will inevetably be killed when he is. It's the random element that is the dangerous part, and it works all in the afk cloakers favour.
The problem here is that you can't really defend against it. Sitting in 10 hours in a pvp ship waiting on someone who's offline with 99% certanty is not very fun gameplay. And even if you do, and they attack someone, chances are they have time to get away before the reinforcements arrive anyway. If the reinforcements even manage to stay alert for 10 hours straight that is.
Quote:
I couldn't agree more. Cloakers are part of life in Null and low sec. Please people. this is getting stupid. Cloaking ships are not a "problem" or broken game mechanic. they are the way they are on purpose. i have killed them and been killed by them. get over it. move on.
I hope my post explains that I don't have anything against cloaking ships, I use them frequently myself and don't want to change the way they are used. This suggestion was made to prevent the boring gameplay brought forth by afk grief cloakers with as minimal change as possible to all other cloaking. Cloaking is a perfectly good, well working mechanic. Afk greif cloaking is not. Don't try to make a strawman argument of my post.
But I guess you love that sort of gameplay so I put you in the pro afk cloak griefer corner.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.19 18:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Brackman
Why are AFK cloakers a problem? I find it odd to get spooked just by someone appearing in local.
I assume the problem with AFK cloakers are that they essentially go around the "appearing in local" part. By sitting afk for 10 hours the inhabitants of the system has to either assume they are about to be jumped at any second, or that they aren't going to get jumped at all.
In both cases their efficiency go down with no work needed at all for the cloakers. In the first case by having to equip a much heavier tank/keeping a hightend awareness/surrouding himself with friends at all times/staying docked up. In the second case he's not ready to get jumped and will inevetably be killed when he is. It's the random element that is the dangerous part, and it works all in the afk cloakers favour.
The problem here is that you can't really defend against it. Sitting in 10 hours in a pvp ship waiting on someone who's offline with 99% certanty is not very fun gameplay. And even if you do, and they attack someone, chances are they have time to get away before the reinforcements arrive anyway. If the reinforcements even manage to stay alert for 10 hours straight that is.
But I guess you two love that sort of gameplay so I put you in the pro afk cloak griefer corner.
you dont know by a single bit if am AFK or not, I could be flying around the whole time and make bookmarks to watch your posses, look on the station who undocks, check for posses where people might log off.
but that doesnt mean
a) that you cant use your system b) that you are totally helpless.
as described in the 18 (or is it 19 pages by now) thread ... ... you can rat in groups ... pvp fit your ratting ships (Yes it really works) ... move to a different system (I cant see you there) ... try to bait me, to kill me. (yes you can really kill me, because when i try to hurt you, you can hurt me!)
my cloak is my mobile station/pos. you sit in your protected space, i sit in mine.
but then again it is easier to ask for nerfs on other people's play style than adapting your own to cope with the situation. right?
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Gecko O'Bac
Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS
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Posted - 2010.05.19 18:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Daedalus II I assume the problem with AFK cloakers are that they essentially go around the "appearing in local" part. By sitting afk for 10 hours the inhabitants of the system has to either assume they are about to be jumped at any second, or that they aren't going to get jumped at all.
In both cases their efficiency go down with no work needed at all for the cloakers. In the first case by having to equip a much heavier tank/keeping a hightend awareness/surrouding himself with friends at all times/staying docked up. In the second case he's not ready to get jumped and will inevetably be killed when he is. It's the random element that is the dangerous part, and it works all in the afk cloakers favour.
The problem here is that you can't really defend against it. Sitting in 10 hours in a pvp ship waiting on someone who's offline with 99% certanty is not very fun gameplay. And even if you do, and they attack someone, chances are they have time to get away before the reinforcements arrive anyway. If the reinforcements even manage to stay alert for 10 hours straight that is.
But I guess you two love that sort of gameplay so I put you in the pro afk cloak griefer corner.
It's a problem only for afk miners. If you're afk mining in 0.0 you should explode anyway, so afk cloakers are no problem. For ratters, simply stay aligned to something, even in a battleship you won't have problems warping away. Problem solved.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 18:17:00 -
[10]
Originally by: darius mclever
you dont know by a single bit if am AFK or not, I could be flying around the whole time and make bookmarks to watch your posses, look on the station who undocks, check for posses where people might log off.
That's exactly my point, I don't know. If I'm smart I have to constantly consider you a threat and be on hightened alert, I have to align my battleship, and I can't mine because that ship is too slow to warp if I get attacked.
You on the other hand can happily sit and watch the Simpsons quietly chuckling at all the grief you're giving me while not even at the computer. You aren't in any danger what so ever, you could just as well be docked in a station, you're so safe.
But yes, sure there are ways to battle this, but at a high cost for me and my friends, and a minimal cost for you. We can run in larger fleets and have guards around at all times, but this limits our gameplay and efficiency. We can pvp fit our ships, but this limits our efficiency and won't guarantee survivability. We can move to a different system, but it might not have the stuff we want/need such as military or industrial indices, POSes, stations. We can also try to bait you, but fat use that is when you're afk anyway. And while we're working our ass off doing all this, you sit and watch the Simpsons.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.19 18:22:00 -
[11]
Edited by: darius mclever on 19/05/2010 18:27:39 thats why you are in 0.0, nothing is given there. you have to work for it. and you have to defend your space.
if you want careless carebearing ... go back to empire.
and all your arguments about ship fittings and having to be aligned ... is just weak. really. i had been rating in fleet fit megas due to the lack of other ships just fine. (warp to 100, snipe **** while they approach you.) all the 0.0 carebears should learn from the folks in wormhole space. RR fit your ships, fit a point on ship A and a web on ship B. if you are brave ... fit a neut on of them. pointed, webbed, neuted ... most Recons or bombers die rather quickly or the pilots bail. in both cases you achieved your goal.
but lets use your proposal ... and apply it to TQ ... I loose my warp scrambler when i fit a cloak and you loose your warp scrambler when you have a pos or station in system, sounds fair to me. do we have a deal?
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Gecko O'Bac
Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS
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Posted - 2010.05.19 18:22:00 -
[12]
If an afk cloaker is causing that much disruption to you I highly advise you to revise your play style. Like... Move to high sec. No really. If you're solo mining in 0.0 you're doing it wrong anyway, and aligned battleships are fast enough to warp away before being scrambled if you're paying attention. Ratting in pvp fits is in no way less efficient than in a specific pve fit. Belt rats are so easy that often you can even kill them in stealth bombers. And if you worry so much about losing a ship, just fly a T1 insured battleship. It's more than enough to kill any belt rat you may encounter and it's 100% insured if you die for some reason.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 18:41:00 -
[13]
I still mean that you being afk changes my playstyle is not a good mechanic.
Imagine that you were in a non cloaking ship, then I could change to a pvp ship, scan you down and elminate the threat. I could then go back to using pve ships/mining again knowing that my system is safe to do that thanks to my effort. If you call that carebearing so be it, but I did pvp work to be able to carebear safely in there.
Now say that you instead sit in a cloaked ship, afk. I can not scan you down and eliminate you. I have to play according to your rules, I have to change my playstyle for many hours just due to you being there, nothing else, and I can not do anything about it. I can't preemtively attack to defend myself, I have to wait for you to attack me, and you surely will pick an optimal time to do so. While I certainly CAN rat in a pvp fit battleship, if I could actually get rid of you I WOULDN'T HAVE TO. Ie, you are making my play experience worse yet doing nothing to afford that "honor".
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.19 18:50:00 -
[14]
I cant get you out of the station either when i want to kill you? does that sound fair? where is the honor in docking up and hiding from me? or running to your pos? also fair?
you have to modify your fittings a bit to be pvp ready ... I sit in a relatively weak tanked ship (especially when you neut me)
but again it is easier to ask to nerf the others right?
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: darius mclever I cant get you out of the station either when i want to kill you? does that sound fair? where is the honor in docking up and hiding from me? or running to your pos? also fair?
Yes and you could play the station games just as well. And yes if you had a POS in the system you could also run to it. I on the other hand can not counter your afk cloaking by afk cloaking myself.
Originally by: darius mclever
but again it is easier to ask to nerf the others right?
. Yes and it's easier to crack down on anyone with an idea instead of changing your own playstyle. Hey it worked for the church hundreds of years during the dark ages
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Gecko O'Bac
Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Daedalus II I still mean that you being afk changes my playstyle is not a good mechanic.
Imagine that you were in a non cloaking ship, then I could change to a pvp ship, scan you down and elminate the threat. I could then go back to using pve ships/mining again knowing that my system is safe to do that thanks to my effort. If you call that carebearing so be it, but I did pvp work to be able to carebear safely in there.
Now say that you instead sit in a cloaked ship, afk. I can not scan you down and eliminate you. I have to play according to your rules, I have to change my playstyle for many hours just due to you being there, nothing else, and I can not do anything about it. I can't preemtively attack to defend myself, I have to wait for you to attack me, and you surely will pick an optimal time to do so. While I certainly CAN rat in a pvp fit battleship, if I could actually get rid of you I WOULDN'T HAVE TO. Ie, you are making my play experience worse yet doing nothing to afford that "honor".
No really, sorry but you don't seem to be getting this. Afk cloakers in no way change your behaviour because you should be doing all of those things while in 0.0 ANYWAY. Besides, ratting in a pvp battleship is dumb. You either rat in a pvp HAC / BC or you just sit on a T1 battleship/bc and don't care if you get blown up because you get 100% of its value back. And that's always, not only with afk cloakers in system. If you're not doing that and paying a minimum of attention, a roaming solo pvper will blow you up, cloak or not. Same goes for mining: solo mining in 0.0 is dumb. Get a little mining gang going and you're safe from pvpers, afk or not.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:10:00 -
[17]
of course cloaking yourself, gives you the same protection as my cloak gives me.
but then it might happen that we sit on the same grid but dont see each other.
and just to give you an idea ... you bring a very tanky domi out to rat, maybe with a heavy neut and point. around you ... a corp mate in an arazu and another in an rapier. maybe some friends in bombers. so you start ratting ... I see you ... "oh a domi, i can take that". uncloak and start fighting .... your neut hits me and your point, and oh **** a web.
and then your friends decloak ... I die in a ball of fire.
yes cloaking didnt help you.
a very creative way to solve your issue no? even when you might loose your domi. i loose a t2 ship that should normally cost me more than your insured t1 BS.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gecko O'Bac
No really, sorry but you don't seem to be getting this. Afk cloakers in no way change your behaviour because you should be doing all of those things while in 0.0 ANYWAY. Besides, ratting in a pvp battleship is dumb. You either rat in a pvp HAC / BC or you just sit on a T1 battleship/bc and don't care if you get blown up because you get 100% of its value back. And that's always, not only with afk cloakers in system. If you're not doing that and paying a minimum of attention, a roaming solo pvper will blow you up, cloak or not. Same goes for mining: solo mining in 0.0 is dumb. Get a little mining gang going and you're safe from pvpers, afk or not.
What I'm trying to say is that if I defend my system and keep it clear of hostiles I can afford me the luxury of playing in it like if I were in high sec the rest of the time. But I can not keep a system clear of hostiles if they are cloaked and afk.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: darius mclever of course cloaking yourself, gives you the same protection as my cloak gives me.
but then it might happen that we sit on the same grid but dont see each other.
and just to give you an idea ... you bring a very tanky domi out to rat, maybe with a heavy neut and point. around you ... a corp mate in an arazu and another in an rapier. maybe some friends in bombers. so you start ratting ... I see you ... "oh a domi, i can take that". uncloak and start fighting .... your neut hits me and your point, and oh **** a web.
and then your friends decloak ... I die in a ball of fire.
yes cloaking didnt help you.
a very creative way to solve your issue no? even when you might loose your domi. i loose a t2 ship that should normally cost me more than your insured t1 BS.
This is all good and fine, but you are seeing this from an active cloakers point of view. I don't have anything against that, that gives opportunities for fun pvp.
Now instead imagine that you have been sitting afk cloaked in 10 hours in the system. Do you honestly think I can find four-five people willing to sit cloaked around me, watching me rat in a domi for 10 hours?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:28:00 -
[20]
well... I will need patience to wait out your period of sitting in station until you get brave enough again to undock.
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Gecko O'Bac
Achmed-Terrorist IUS PRIMAE N0CTIS
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Posted - 2010.05.19 19:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Daedalus II What I'm trying to say is that if I defend my system and keep it clear of hostiles I can afford me the luxury of playing in it like if I were in high sec the rest of the time. But I can not keep a system clear of hostiles if they are cloaked and afk.
So... You want to carebear. In 0.0. Carebear. In 0.0.
Is it just me or is that an oxymoron?
If you could ever feel like carebearing in 0.0 than it'd mean that EVE has gone to hell. Sorry but low and nullsec space are meant to be FREAKING DANGEROUS. And let me tell you, if afk cloakers are all you have to worry about then you HAVE IT GOOD!
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Baaldor
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.19 21:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: darius mclever well... I will need patience to wait out your period of sitting in station until you get brave enough again to undock.
That is if he is docked.
Because if you do not have rights to dock, then how do you know if he is AFK in the station or out side somewhere cloaked?
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.19 22:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: darius mclever well... I will need patience to wait out your period of sitting in station until you get brave enough again to undock.
That is if he is docked.
Because if you do not have rights to dock, then how do you know if he is AFK in the station or out side somewhere cloaked?
I dont need to know that :) I will just wait until he comes back in a ratting ship or so :)
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N0N
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Posted - 2010.05.19 22:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Daedalus II
I assume the problem with AFK cloakers are that they essentially go around the "appearing in local" part. By sitting afk for 10 hours the inhabitants of the system has to either assume they are about to be jumped at any second, or that they aren't going to get jumped at all.
Yea heaven forbid they jump into another system and mine/rat there.
But no, lets jump on the forum and whine with another fail idea.
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Tess TossedHerOwn
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Posted - 2010.05.20 05:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Daedalus II
My idea is simply to disallow warp jamming equipment on ships that also has a cloak. As simple as that.
I has a cloak!
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Abbot Laarkin
Order Of Mystical Mountain Monks
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Posted - 2010.05.20 07:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Daedalus II
I assume the problem with AFK cloakers are that they essentially go around the "appearing in local" part. By sitting afk for 10 hours the inhabitants of the system has to either assume they are about to be jumped at any second, or that they aren't going to get jumped at all.
So is the problem that AFK cloakers are "getting around" local, or that Local is "getting around" cloaking? Tricky one huh. The fact that local reports a persons presence the second they jump in system makes the whole concept of "covert" operations a little silly. AFK cloaking is simply the best (one could almost say only) way of redressing the balance to some degree.
It is my understanding, and I may very well be mistaken, that CCP never intended Local to be used as a source of Intel. The problem is that now so many players have become over-dependant on it CCP are aware that any attempt to remove it is going to cause uproar.
Would not surprise me if they did go ahead and change local in the future, just as soon as they figure out how to balance that off against cloaks, probes etc.
Only with a change or removal of local would I consider it fair or reasonable to change current cloaking mechanics. I like being stealthy, I like the option of flying solo in hostile space without being insta-blobbed. I strongly dislike AFK play of any sort, but it's a tactic developed in the face of the severe (and possibly unintentional) counter to stealth represented by a Chat channel.
Everyone seems to be arguing for a "nerf" to one or the other, I prefer to argue for a considered and balanced reappraisal of both mechanics at the same time. The exact nature of that balance is for smarter people than me to figure out (and there are certainly plenty of those at CCP).
Peace.
----
Originally by: Sir Carnage
Originally by: Marko Riva Why does that read like they're all 12 and have an IQ of 37?
I was under the impression they were 37 and had an IQ of 12
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ULTImatio
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Posted - 2010.05.20 07:49:00 -
[27]
Sollution = Cloak fuel
Use booster sells or fuel to keep the cloak active and running.
Simply ad booster or fuel bays to the ships so only a fixed amount can be in the ship that makes it possible to cloak for like a few hours.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.05.20 08:30:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Daedalus II And regarding the solo recons; why would you use a solo recon with a warp scrambler for anything other than griefing?
griefing? LoL, I think you misunderstand the definition of griefing. Killing/ganking is not griefing, its one basic part of the gameplay.
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.05.20 08:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Abbot Laarkin
So is the problem that AFK cloakers are "getting around" local, or that Local is "getting around" cloaking? Tricky one huh. The fact that local reports a persons presence the second they jump in system makes the whole concept of "covert" operations a little silly. AFK cloaking is simply the best (one could almost say only) way of redressing the balance to some degree.
It is my understanding, and I may very well be mistaken, that CCP never intended Local to be used as a source of Intel. The problem is that now so many players have become over-dependant on it CCP are aware that any attempt to remove it is going to cause uproar.
Would not surprise me if they did go ahead and change local in the future, just as soon as they figure out how to balance that off against cloaks, probes etc.
Only with a change or removal of local would I consider it fair or reasonable to change current cloaking mechanics. I like being stealthy, I like the option of flying solo in hostile space without being insta-blobbed. I strongly dislike AFK play of any sort, but it's a tactic developed in the face of the severe (and possibly unintentional) counter to stealth represented by a Chat channel.
Everyone seems to be arguing for a "nerf" to one or the other, I prefer to argue for a considered and balanced reappraisal of both mechanics at the same time. The exact nature of that balance is for smarter people than me to figure out (and there are certainly plenty of those at CCP).
Peace.
Agreed, I wouldn't mind some sort of change to local to not make it such a powerful intel tool. As a compensation I'd say the scanning array for POSes should work sort of like local if one owns a POS with scanning array in the system. Of course it wouldn't see cloaked ships. If something like this happened, the whole deal with AFK cloakers would be moot.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.05.21 02:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: darius mclever "An idea is unbalanced when only one side is considered. This idea has fallen over and is laying on its side...
Not creative enough to come up with your own cleaver comebacks?
Originally by: darius mclever EVE is a game about non consensual PVP. you dont grief a player when you hunt him down in a cloaky ship.
Says the guy who hides in complete safety while cloaked at a SS. Hypocrite much?
Originally by: darius mclever my cloak is my mobile station/pos. you sit in your protected space, i sit in mine.
but then again it is easier to abuse overpowered mechanics than adapting your own to cope with the situation. right?
Seriously? I mean really??? That's your new stance. You sure you're not a Mark H alt? You expect the safety of a multi billion isk station or a multi hundred million pain in the ass to fuel and set up pos any time any place in space???????
Just friggin rebalance cloaking already. People that can't really play the game, that need an "I can't lose" button make me sick. Go play in the kiddie pool little boy.
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