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Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
85
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Posted - 2012.07.15 14:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Voith wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Typhoon Armageddon Vindicator Machariel Tempest
Sleipnir Astarte Nighthawk Drake Cyclone Hurricane
Stabber Fleet Rupture Loki Zealot Pilgrim Ishtar Vagabond Cynabal
Harpy Enyo Dramiel Vengeance Ishkur Wolf Thrasher
All are multi-use ships. I'm sure I missed some. You're dumb. Let me know when "Wolf Fleet" is a doctrine of a major alliance. Or Any other of those ships you listed other than Drake and Tempest. Your previous post had asked for ships for: Quote "Solo, small gang, and fleet combat" Wolf fits that description easily. If you wanted "Major alliance fleet doctrine" you should have been specific. Then I would have removed some ships but added a couple others. "Major alliance fleet doctrine" is such a small part of the game... Not sure it is even relevent to this thread. I'm not sure what your point even was. But it helps prove my point, that the Tengu is not OP. Surely it is not OMFG NERF THE HEAVY MISSILE CRUISER HULL. You're Dumb Post with your main or gtfo Sorry, I thought you were smart enough to realize that I wasn't talking about ~special-snowflake~ fits.
My mistake. |
Dunan Sanis
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
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Posted - 2012.07.15 14:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
Voith wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Typhoon Armageddon Vindicator Machariel Tempest
Sleipnir Astarte Nighthawk Drake Cyclone Hurricane
Stabber Fleet Rupture Loki Zealot Pilgrim Ishtar Vagabond Cynabal
Harpy Enyo Dramiel Vengeance Ishkur Wolf Thrasher
All are multi-use ships. I'm sure I missed some. You're dumb. Let me know when "Wolf Fleet" is a doctrine of a major alliance. Or Any other of those ships you listed other than Drake and Tempest.
Sure because a Tengu doctrine was a really really good idea for SoCO. They sure showed us the Tengu were much more superior by beating our Drakes. /s |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.07.15 16:54:00 -
[63] - Quote
I want to win the California lottery, so I need to fly Tengu??
Oh, wait... |
Tarak Addaney
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
3
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Posted - 2012.07.16 02:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:Ayeshah Volfield wrote:Popularity should never be a factor when it comes to balance. Popularity is a sign that something is imbalanced. If people chose Spacesubmarine A over Spacesubmarine B, then there is an obvious issue here.
So we buff space sub B and then more people fly sub B and then you get the same complaint.. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
502
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Posted - 2012.07.16 02:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP please remove this thread's OP from this game.
Regards,
--The EVE Community In irae, veritas. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1633
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Posted - 2012.07.16 02:54:00 -
[66] - Quote
And I thought GD was bad. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
107
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:21:00 -
[67] - Quote
mistake post. will edit later |
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
103
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Posted - 2012.07.16 06:51:00 -
[68] - Quote
Remove all ships, just keep the pods.............. |
Goran Konjich
University of Caille Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2012.07.16 08:54:00 -
[69] - Quote
Flurk Hellbron wrote:Remove all ships, just keep the pods..............
yea, pod PEW PEW ... that woudl be cool ...
no really , i hate Tengu ... so do not remove it, let duchebags fly it even MOAR "a diplomat with 425mm briefcase II" |
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.07.16 09:36:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:... Also: Lokis are Tengu natural predator, therefore Lokis are overpowered, nerf them !
This^ |
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
111
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Posted - 2012.07.16 09:48:00 -
[71] - Quote
I'm an Amarr pilot 100% and even I'm cross-training for Tengu/Missiles. If I'm doing that, there must be something wrong with them! |
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Tuskers
32
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Posted - 2012.07.16 14:26:00 -
[72] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:I'm an Amarr pilot 100% and even I'm cross-training for Tengu/Missiles. If I'm doing that, there must be something wrong with them!
Absolutly. Crosstraining from one race with a missile based lineup to another race with a missile based lineup is bad, poinless, a waste of time and should be prohibited. Its not like some Caldari and Amarr Ships share the same weapons. There is also no line of pirate ships that need both Caldari and Amarr ship skills. This is a clear sign of the Tengu being overpowered. Thank you for enlightening us. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
516
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Posted - 2012.07.16 21:50:00 -
[73] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:I'm an Amarr pilot 100% and even I'm cross-training for Tengu/Missiles. If I'm doing that, there must be something wrong with me!
Here I just fixed this stuff 4U.
If you think you can't do wit lazers what you think be able to do with missiles, you're doing it wrong. Amarr are probably the most balanced race and ship line in Eve. Now if you're killing Guristas rats with your Legion, ok, fair choice.
brb |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
516
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Posted - 2012.07.16 22:10:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I don't really care about Tengus. I'd just like it if legions could be something other than what amounts to either a curse with more buffer and no range bonus, two harbingers taped together or a sacrilege that costs 4 times as much.
I'd fear much faster to get in the face of a Legion than a Tengu, probably because I know how weak Tengu can be if you do it right.
Does Legion need a little bit of dps boost? -yes Does Legion needs to shoot crap at 100km fit decent tank/speed and still capable to active rep cap stable like Tengu? -yes
But this is what all other T3's are in need of more or less to become as versatile as Tengu is, not the other way around because it would be stupid and bad for the game. They all need to be able to fit as decently as Tengu for same roles but let me all remind you Tengu Hybrid sub is jut an awful troll. So no Tengu is not good at everything it's supposed to do and at what it excels is at several billions cost most other T3 pilots are not willing to put in their ship.
-Legion can't shoot as far as Tengu but for sure has better short range weapons and a much higher Tank, hell higher is just the first name. -Loki is probably the second best T3, decent dps/range with arty, excellent in AC armor or shield perma mwd/large shield booster and natural Tengu predator, should it be nerf then?
-Proteus, the well known "in your face" big balls pile of HP, welp can't shoot crap at 100km neither or decently fit 250's by the way and drone sub imho despite new drone mods some seem to love so much, I still think it's not what it should be for a T3 drone ship. But hey, spits 1400dps with 3 billion fit, why doesn't everyone uses them? -c'mon it's silly, why not use 1400dps ships instead of Tengus (lol dps)?
Because they're all different and each of them is absolute master in what it does best. The only difference is that Tengu can field some other roles better than all other T3's and this needs a take a look upwards and not downwards for everyone benefit starting for the game it self. brb |
Lost Greybeard
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
118
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Posted - 2012.07.16 22:20:00 -
[75] - Quote
Mercury Alar wrote:if u want to run mission ,fly tengu
Or basically any T1 Battleship in the game (cheaper to boot). Most T2 Cruisers work fine as well.
Quote:if u want to get DED in high/low sec even in null sec(ninja) ,fly tengu
Tengu can't go into a lot of high-sec DED sites, 1/10 and 2/10 are restricted to Frig and Destroyer respectively. 3/10s work with basically any cruiser and 4/10s probably go fastest with a BC. Admittedly a Tengu is probably better than a BS for 5/10, but T3s are explicitly exploration boats, deal with it.
Null sites that can be ninja'd by a 2bn Tengu can also be ninja'd by a 30m Stealth Bomber (bonus: with a probe bay!)
What I'm saying here is that the Tengu/Drake is far from your only option for PvE. Admittedly, T3s in general are much more outright superior most other things in w-Space, but that's mostly because that's what they're specifically designed for. |
Annabell Ood
Ood Mineral Resources Management
3
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Posted - 2012.07.16 22:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
yes YES the Tengu must die .... a ship that OP for pve is just stupid |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
14
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Posted - 2012.07.17 00:15:00 -
[77] - Quote
If this was all done as a troll, it was masterfully done! 4 pages and still going. |
Zyress
The Fabulous Thunderbirds
120
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Posted - 2012.07.17 20:38:00 -
[78] - Quote
Voith wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Typhoon Armageddon Vindicator Machariel Tempest
Sleipnir Astarte Nighthawk Drake Cyclone Hurricane
Stabber Fleet Rupture Loki Zealot Pilgrim Ishtar Vagabond Cynabal
Harpy Enyo Dramiel Vengeance Ishkur Wolf Thrasher
All are multi-use ships. I'm sure I missed some. You're dumb. Let me know when "Wolf Fleet" is a doctrine of a major alliance. Or Any other of those ships you listed other than Drake and Tempest.
Ummm don't Goons have that Rifter fleet doctrine? |
Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
13
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Posted - 2012.07.18 05:39:00 -
[79] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Ummm don't Goons have that Rifter fleet doctrine?
They do. Well, not exactly a fleet doctrine (as far as I'm aware :p), but they do use Rifter noobies quite regularly. The primary striking power of the Goons, though, lies in high alpha Maelstroms and in Drake support fleets. Why?
Because: - it's easier to replace standardized equipment - they have the economy to support full replacement programs - it's easy to train into
A Rifter fleet doctrine will work, but not for a major null sec Alliance. In fact, it would probably make a perfect doctrine for a smaller high sec miner alliance, because it also doesn't require much combat training, it's **** easy to replace and you deny your pirate enemies a decent killmail while still presenting enough danger to their best ships. More importantly, nobody will cry over a few hundred thousand isk lost in one ship - and if they do, they should seriously consider finding a new game. |
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
183
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Posted - 2012.07.18 07:52:00 -
[80] - Quote
The Tengu missile subsystem gets a 100% dps bonus. This leads to the funny situation where given the same number of BCUs and launchers, a heavy missile Tengu does the nearly same dps as a HAM Legion, but at 126 km range instead of 20. |
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Josef Djugashvilis
The Scope Gallente Federation
368
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Posted - 2012.07.18 07:53:00 -
[81] - Quote
I do not fly one, but my freinds who do so, say it is overpowered.
Still, some ship/fitting combo will always be the 'best'. You want fries with that? |
Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
13
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Posted - 2012.07.18 08:44:00 -
[82] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:The Tengu missile subsystem gets a 100% dps bonus.
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:I do not fly one, but my freinds who do so, say it is overpowered.
Still, some ship/fitting combo will always be the 'best'.
Newsflash to both of you: Tengu's dps isn't all that great. Zomg, Cait crazy, stfu noob? Not really. A CNR can pull of around 1k dps, a Machariel somewhere in that region, so does Nightmare, so do Marauders and many of them do so in wider damage spectrum than Tengu. Even a properly fitted Drake can get close to Tengu's maximum dps output, though most people fit a Drake for massive passive tank, sacrificing most of that dps.
So the damage bonus isn't a problem, it never was, it never will be. What makes Tengu so awesome for pve is what makes missiles awesome for pve: the ability to hit a target at any range for the same damage. It doesn't matter if you're in target's face or 100 km out, you'll be doing virtually the same dps. There is no optimal, there is no falloff, you don't need to worry about transversal and tracking, you just shoot and if you have the right rigs/painters, you'll hit.
Let's compare that with Legion, for instance - up close, the Legion will tear the Tengu apart and deal more dps - but increase the distance and the Legion will have to swap crystals to get range, dropping to about 50% at 70 km. In many ways, Tengu is the "Noob's Heavy Drake" - a easy to use ship that performs admirably in most roles. It is NOT, however, the best damage dealer of the T3s, nor does it have the best tank.
As for your friends, Josef, I think they need to try more ships. I can honestly say that my fairly mediocre fitted CNR performs far better in many situations, though the Tengu does have its uses. |
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
184
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Posted - 2012.07.18 11:52:00 -
[83] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Newsflash to both of you: Tengu's dps isn't all that great.
The Tengu's DPS is absolutely amazing for its range. Yes, that one overpowered missile subsystem is the biggest reason why the Tengu is everywhere. |
Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
13
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Posted - 2012.07.18 13:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
Takeshi, it really isn't that amazing for it's range. Here, a few fast (partial) compositions to show it doesn't stick out at all:
http://shrani.si/f/3k/sQ/1im1YIOm/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png
http://shrani.si/f/C/dl/3ySV7Rl0/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png
http://shrani.si/f/1v/aq/44MY5Tb/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png
http://shrani.si/f/1h/aE/3SA9LAoD/screen-shot-2012-07-18-a.png
As you can see, many ships can get close (even the puny Drake) or surpass it, even though it has that amazing mod. If the Tengu had the same bonus as other ships, it would be worse than Drake at dps.
So if the main advantage isn't the dps, what is it? It's the damage application. CNR has more dps and insane range comparably (227 km :p), but I dare you to try and shoot frigates with it :p
As our Ishtar example above shows, the biggest issue isn't Tengu being powerful - compared to Drake it's at about the right spot - the biggest issue is that competitive HACs (more specifically, Cerberus) are ****.
Quote:The next best subsystem is the HAM Legion with +66% dps and selectable damage types.
HAM Legion has a completely different application, more akin to pvp HAM Drake; for PvE you'll want a laser boat, usually Pulse because even though it sacrifices range, the dps is just soooooo juicy. Then again, a blaster Proteus, mmmmm <3 |
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
184
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Posted - 2012.07.18 13:17:00 -
[85] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Takeshi, it really isn't that amazing for it's range. Here, a few fast (partial) compositions to show it doesn't stick out at all:
In the T3 cruiser group, the Tengu very much sticks out. Besides, I don't think you're helping your point with those examples. The full-gank Ishtar has a paper tank, the Rokh is a brick with tracking limitations and even the mighty Drake is just worse in every aspect. Are you honestly trying to tell me with a straight face that these ships are real alternatives to a Tengu? In some cases perhaps, but generally no.
Quote:for PvE you'll want a laser boat, usually Pulse because even though it sacrifices range, the dps is just soooooo juicy.
A Pulse Legion like that does 618 dps at 11 km (3x HS II, Heavy Pulse II, Navy MF) is 'soooooo juicy' in your own words, but a HAM Tengu with equivalent modules that does 718 dps at 30 km 'isn't that amazing'? Well thanks for clearing that up!
PS: that Legion has a significantly worse tank too. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
148
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Posted - 2012.07.18 14:09:00 -
[86] - Quote
Mercury Alar wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:tengu is the hulk of pve?
ban hulks too, as they are the best miners. hulk cannot get ice tengu do every PVE stuff good that's the prove
Try to solo a Blood Raider 10/10 with a tengu, let me know how that goes lol.
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Caitlyn Tufy
Refuge of Hope Lemniskate
13
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Posted - 2012.07.19 07:09:00 -
[87] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Takeshi, it really isn't that amazing for it's range. Here, a few fast (partial) compositions to show it doesn't stick out at all: In the T3 cruiser group, the Tengu very much sticks out
And that's what I'm saying - it doesn't. For pve, sure, but then, so does CNR compared to, say, navy Megathron, does that mean CNR should be nerfed? For pvp, for instance, I'll dare say Proteus is better. Likewise, the other two have their advantages.
Quote:Are you honestly trying to tell me with a straight face that these ships are real alternatives to a Tengu?
No. I'm telling you - with a straight face - that it's not its dps which makes it powerful, it's a combination of factors. People oversimplify things - the above comment was directly aimed at "zomg, it's accelerated ejection bay's fault!" comment, when evidence shows contrary, that the accelerated ejection bay doesn't stick out from the crowd all that much, that the ship has other factors going for it.
Quote:Quote:for PvE you'll want a laser boat, usually Pulse because even though it sacrifices range, the dps is just soooooo juicy. A Pulse Legion like that does 618 dps at 11 km (3x HS II, Heavy Pulse II, Navy MF) is 'soooooo juicy' in your own words, but a HAM Tengu with equivalent modules that does 718 dps at 30 km 'isn't that amazing'? Well thanks for clearing that up! PS: that Legion has a significantly worse tank too.
I must have made a mistake somewhere, I'm fairly sure I saw a 900 dps figure yesterday... no matter, my point still stands - a Legion will deal around 800 dps fully equipped and using Conflagration, at around 80k ehp and 1.5k speed (though not permarunnable). A HAM tengu may get close to that speed with MWD, but can't field a buffer or it can field a buffer, but can't get that speed, not to mention that he'll have to sacrifice Rigors, giving up his ability to strike small targets.
That said, I really love to use Energy Locus Coordinator rigs with my Pulse Lasers. On a properly geared Legion, that will make your Conflagration pulses hit out to about 20km, while Scorch will have a nearly 60km optimal. Add a navy MF for mid range and that gives you an awesome damage application at all ranges. The only problem with my fit is, I need Engineering 4 implant to have enough power grid to actually pull it off, but meh, that's a small sacrifice to pay. |
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