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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.05.28 10:28:00 -
[31]
Ha ha, posting in a ankkerwjnrjw thread.
Anyway, not supported.
Sure, bugs/exploits need a fix, nobody rational will oppose that.
However: - plexing/system occupancy stuff has no tangible benefits really or reason to really fight over it BUT on the other hand: - if this has a major impact and really hurts the losing side, then you have the 0.0 sov warfare reloaded with mandatory ops + blobbery and crap (and I suspect most bored 0.0 people who tried FW got away precisely to avoid that crap) - only having sense from a roleplaying perspective means it belongs in the "**** nobody cares about" cathegory - financial incentives for winning side do make sense somewhat, but on the other hand if it's not significant it again belongs in the "**** nobody cares about" cathegory, and if it is it will get farmed/exploited naturally
Also, tons of FW action really boils to: - form blob - roam a pipe like Tama->OMS or area around Amamake - fight some other blob - rinse repeat
Which adds just more of the boring type of PVP and has only really had negative effects on the whole (from increased blobbery of FW peoples to forming of supersized pirate corps/alliances which blob/hotdrop left and right, basically reducing small scale PVP action in FW areas to practically nonexistent and driving people who do anything productive out of FW areas).
Most old low-sec denizens have gotten to really despise FW because it has brought a few good things and a lot of bad with it.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
yani dumyat
The 23rd Sense
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Posted - 2010.05.28 10:30:00 -
[32]
Edited by: yani dumyat on 28/05/2010 10:32:05
Originally by: Bad Messenger Faction Warfare on war for occupancy is mostly dead....So total number of actual active plexers is quite low. CCP does not fix FW plexing because only about 30-50 actual players play it on daily.
There is no reason to take plexes or fight those, so there is no fightning. Plexing happens mostly when you can do it without resistance.
Only thing that people are happy is roaming with blob from oms to tama and back. Blob ! The thing you can do better in 0.0 so...
FW is dead.
Originally by: Crazy KSK
I think that FW not just need some bugs fixed rather than get build up from scratch again
What's with all the melodrama? FW is the single most successful low sec initiative I've ever seen and it's a solid base to build on. As for your argument that there's no fighting because everybody's too busy blobbing, I hope you can see how you've just shot yourself in the foot.
People do not join FW to orbit timers, they do it to get fights so forcing people to participate in pve activities like plexing will drive them away from FW. Sure you get blob fleets but there's plenty of smaller fights if you want them.
FW is as dead as eve is dying.
General support for OP added but with reservations outlined in my previous post. _______
Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.05.28 11:09:00 -
[33]
There is no 'fix' to FW since it is fundamentally flawed, it needs to be rethought and redesigned from scratch.
I made my suggestion as to how to go about it a while ago, but anything similar will do .. as long as focus is on PvP solo/small-gang/fleet with RP as a backdrop it will work.
Supported, if only to keep pressure on the beer-o-holics.
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.05.28 11:32:00 -
[34]
Originally by: yani dumyat Edited by: yani dumyat on 28/05/2010 10:32:05
Originally by: Bad Messenger Faction Warfare on war for occupancy is mostly dead....So total number of actual active plexers is quite low. CCP does not fix FW plexing because only about 30-50 actual players play it on daily.
There is no reason to take plexes or fight those, so there is no fightning. Plexing happens mostly when you can do it without resistance.
Only thing that people are happy is roaming with blob from oms to tama and back. Blob ! The thing you can do better in 0.0 so...
FW is dead.
Originally by: Crazy KSK
I think that FW not just need some bugs fixed rather than get build up from scratch again
What's with all the melodrama? FW is the single most successful low sec initiative I've ever seen and it's a solid base to build on. As for your argument that there's no fighting because everybody's too busy blobbing, I hope you can see how you've just shot yourself in the foot.
People do not join FW to orbit timers, they do it to get fights so forcing people to participate in pve activities like plexing will drive them away from FW. Sure you get blob fleets but there's plenty of smaller fights if you want them.
FW is as dead as eve is dying.
General support for OP added but with reservations outlined in my previous post.
Yes, there is pvp. But FW itself is dead, no one fights for occupancy.
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yani dumyat
Minmatar The 23rd Sense
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Posted - 2010.05.28 11:41:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Yes, there is pvp. But FW itself is dead, no one fights for occupancy.
And that is exactly why it's successful. _______
Trolls and Tribulations A story of eve, trolls, world domination and dogfighting against starlings in a tiny dramiel. |
Louis deGuerre
Amicus Morte Shock an Awe
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Posted - 2010.05.28 13:26:00 -
[36]
/signed Sol: A microwarp drive? In a battleship? Are you insane? They arenĘt built for this! Clear Skies - The Movie
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.05.28 14:33:00 -
[37]
I agree with much of what Yani says.
FW has some truly awesome game mechanics. The fact that you can get in a plex with only certain ship sizes means you can go in there and pvp without gettting blobbed! Just move away from the warp in gate and if they come with huge numbers warp! If they come with something sensible you have some of the greatest fights in eve.
Why doesn't this currently lead to great pvp in plexes? 2 reasons: 1) Npcs in the plexes ruin it. Who wants to fight with your ability to win gimped by some intangible amount of rat dps and ewar from rats? Its lame fighting when you are under fire from npcs. Get rid of them in plexes. and 2) Militias aren't informed when players enter plexes. When someone from fw enters a complex gate both sides should know who entered where and ship types. This is intel should just be provided via a seperate channel. After all if a system is contested that means both sides have spies there giving info. (here I mean not player spies but just npc spies that will post in the channel) That way the players could get a gang out there to fight them if they want before the plex runs. No npcs! But information about where you can find pvp!
If you made those two changes I think plexing would make fw the absolute best pvp mechanic in the game.
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Graham Johnstone
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2010.05.28 16:29:00 -
[38]
Some good points well made there and others that seem a little irrelevant.
There is one gripe I have with FW at the moment and that relates to faction standings. After the initial faction standing bump you get through promotions, there is no way in FW to actually improve your faction standings.
This presents difficulties in a few situations, including, RR gangs where one or more of the pilots have -5 sec status. Not only do you take the sec status hit for remote repping the pilot but you also take a faction standing hit for doing so. This just seems so wrong.
This could be fixed by adding a small faction standing bonus to capturing plexes. This would not only help those who need the standings but would also encourage a lot more pilots to take part in plexing, which seems to be something that is desired.
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari Hull Tanking Elitists
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Posted - 2010.05.28 19:09:00 -
[39]
Here's an idea: get rid of the plexes altogether. They're an awful idea and should go.
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Murat Kutosov
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.29 11:22:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Murat Kutosov on 29/05/2010 11:23:35 Fo schizzle.
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Unfamed II
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.05.29 11:54:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah Fix Factional Warfare * Bug and Exploit fixes (detailed list will be provided to CCP) * Balancing FW-related NPCs in missions and complexes * Fixing the complex spawn system to make complexes spawn at all times during the day * Adding ways for players to know when systems are being contested, letting players find and fight eachother
Agreed. I'd like to get a bit more information about how contested system X is.
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
* Add more ways to contest space * Add PVP-related missions * Add consequences to system occupancy
Too exploitable. We'd find a way, eventually. Consequences to system occupancy? Losers would just quit/switch sides. No thumbs up this time, too much too soon. -b |
Arkady Sadik
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2010.05.29 13:51:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah * Fixing the complex spawn system to make complexes spawn at all times during the day
This is the most important thing regarding FW. I can live with or work around bugs, as annoying as they are. I can live with "no real effect" occupancy quite well (and, as Unfamed noted, effects can easily lead to the wrong reaction; incentives to make the "losing" side more attractive need to be there). All of that I can deal with.
But as it is pretty much mandatory to control post-DT plexing, I can pretty much ignore any possible participation in FW outside of long holidays. DT is during my working hours, I can not be in the game then.
It's the source of endless frustration.
Quick summary for those who don't know:
When a FW plex is captured, it respawns in a given area, like exploration sites. Except that, say, an Amarr complex that spawns in a Minmatar-occupied system can not be found anymore.
In the situation where there is only one Amarr system in the middle of a number of Minmatar-controlled systems - say, they capture a single system in Minmatar space - that would lead to an empty Amarr system until the plexes expire from age. To prevent that, CCP runs a script every downtime to "reshuffle" those "inaccessible" complexes.
That means that every DT, such "island systems" will be repopulated with plexes, but likely remain empty as soon as those are captured, until the next DT. This means that if you can't be there post-DT, you won't be able to participate in most of the key fights and battles of FW.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2010.05.29 15:43:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku Here's an idea: get rid of the plexes altogether. They're an awful idea and should go.
The actual plexes are great - and can be a great way to get pvp. The reason they currently suck is that 1) they are full of npcs so people often use a pve fit, and 2) is the other militia doesn't know when you are doing them! So people tend to try to do them with the hope of not being found. They fit a fast ship and if the enemy happens to stumble in on them they will warp off instead of fight.
If there were no npcs and you knew the other side was put on notice as to where you are doing a plex people would use actual pvp fits and do the plex with the intention of getting pvp. Right now we do get some pvp in and around plexes but the npcs tend to ruin it. And of course, since you don't know when or where people are doing plexes you are just flying around with your fingers crossed hoping to find an enemy. Which is just a waste of time that could be better spent in pvp.
Then when you do find them in the current system chances are they will just warp off because they were hoping not to be found. I donĘt blame people because the mechanics are set up to encourage this behavior. But if you do away with the npcs and just let the other militia know then people would do plexes for the pvp.
The missions can be left for pve but the actual plexes should be taken by pvp.
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Syekuda
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Posted - 2010.05.29 16:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
some **** here and there... blah blah blah
+1 for OP to do a thread like this. some things you say about the fixes to FW just doesn't make any sense or it just wrong and don't even fix the main problem.
From what I hear from other players (Gallente or any other faction) is the blob. The major uber fail blob. They know a blob is coming and they seriously dont like it.
The station game is also a big problem. I blame every faction to do that cause State Pro does that and in certain situation it can be fun and other times, its ****ing other pilots off.
Fix those 2 problems and people will probably love FW a bit more. In other words, no more blob or a big penalty when blobing and try to do something about the station game (ability to get kicked out of station ??? ok, thats a wet dream I have)
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.29 22:17:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Syekuda
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
some **** here and there... blah blah blah
+1 for OP to do a thread like this. some things you say about the fixes to FW just doesn't make any sense or it just wrong and don't even fix the main problem.
From what I hear from other players (Gallente or any other faction) is the blob. The major uber fail blob. They know a blob is coming and they seriously dont like it.
The station game is also a big problem. I blame every faction to do that cause State Pro does that and in certain situation it can be fun and other times, its ****ing other pilots off.
Fix those 2 problems and people will probably love FW a bit more. In other words, no more blob or a big penalty when blobing and try to do something about the station game (ability to get kicked out of station ??? ok, thats a wet dream I have)
Fixing plexes so that we can pvp instead of primarily pve in them would go a LONG way to solving the above:
A plex will
a) Force a certain hull size, a great way to split up blobs b) Get people off stations/gates
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Syekuda
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Posted - 2010.05.30 04:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: chatgris
Fixing plexes so that we can - pvp instead of primarily pve in them - Have them spawn equally in all timezones
would go a LONG way to solving the above:
A plex will
a) Force a certain hull size, a great way to split up blobs b) Get people off stations/gates c) They are most efficiently run when you can do them with one person each - that splits up blobs like nothing else if people would actually care about capturing plexes/systems (hint: give rewards!)
For the certain hull size, I hope you mean only frigs, only cruisers. That would be strange and I don't know if its a good idea but I admit its not bad.
But your idea doesn't get people of gates and stations. Wanna know why ? You don't have control while in a plex. You got an advantage if your at a stargate. If its too big or too strong, order your fleet to jump and poof, there gone. But in a plex, if you go there and your screwed, you stay screwed. You die and lose the fight.
Thats the first thing that will fix the main problem. The second about your so called pve content is probably that Caldari ships are jamming the enemy. Thats very easy to fix you know. In other words, that part is not even a problem.
The third and last is the thing about the timezone. Its false. They just have a number of spawn inside a system...thats all. Don't want to insult you but inform yourself a bit...hell, talk to a dev with a petition first before posting those false facts.
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BillyBulb
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Posted - 2010.06.01 02:40:00 -
[47]
Supported!
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.01 03:03:00 -
[48]
Edited by: chatgris on 01/06/2010 03:07:24
Originally by: Syekuda
For the certain hull size, I hope you mean only frigs, only cruisers. That would be strange and I don't know if its a good idea but I admit its not bad.
Um - that's how it currently works. No change is needed.
Originally by: Syekuda
But your idea doesn't get people of gates and stations. Wanna know why ? You don't have control while in a plex. You got an advantage if your at a stargate. If its too big or too strong, order your fleet to jump and poof, there gone. But in a plex, if you go there and your screwed, you stay screwed. You die and lose the fight.
You don't have control while in a plex!?!? If you are in the plex first you can set up at your optimal range from the warp in (which is static for all but unrestricted plexes), giving you a significant advantage. The only thing you lose some control on is **running away after the fight has started**. If the fleet is too big, you can always see that on directional scanner before engaging and still warp away if you want. In fact, if you're running the button you get - directional scanner notice while the target lands and activates the gate - time for the target to burn to you on the button
But once the fight starts in point range, you're largely committed. Give people incentive to be in plexes, it lessens station/gate humping and that's a good thing.
Originally by: Syekuda
The third and last is the thing about the timezone. Its false. They just have a number of spawn inside a system...thats all. Don't want to insult you but inform yourself a bit...hell, talk to a dev with a petition first before posting those false facts.
Have you seen any dev communication on the matter since this? http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=895197&page=1#14 (scroll down for CCP greyscale's post, number 14)
Simply put - every time you close a plex (lets say for example, a caldari rat plex), it respawns somewhere. If that caldari rat plex respawns in a gallente occupied system, that plex will be stuck until the next downtime when any stuck plexes are moved. A bit of queue theory and stats will show that the fiercer the plexing earlier in the day, the less plexes remain later in the day to run. Whoever has the best presence during DT has a MASSIVE advantage in plexing - in fact, the pervs recently called us exploiting because we got two downtimes in a row due to the patch in the US TZ resulting in us flipping two systems and making three heavily contested.
If you have any dev information to the contrary to the above plex spawning, I'd LOVE to see it.
No offence, but it doesn't seem like you know very much about plexing or the spawn mechanics.
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Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.06.01 14:04:00 -
[49]
Here's hoping CCP finally pays attention to the many many many times we've all brought this stuff up.
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Syekuda
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Posted - 2010.06.01 15:28:00 -
[50]
Originally by: chatgris blah blah blah
for the ship size, I thought you meant a plex which only cruisers could enter...thats it. nothing more nothing less. You were not clear enough. Thats why I said it would be weird but its not a bad idea.
the second thing is the control. Let says its a caldari plex, the guy is waiting at the button. he has more advantage because of the NPC's with him. That's what I mean by saying no control or less. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough
For the timezone and plex spawn, a dev told me in a petition (rules forbid me to copy paste but I don't have it anyway, its deleted) that a plex will respawn in a region where you've done the quest...no more details. He didn't mention it was stuck. I seriously don't have proof and no one does. If theres a proof, please tell it and show it to me. I'm very hard headed in these issues. I'm not a fan of /you say he say so believe me/.
p.s: I'm not a uber epic fan of plexing but I know how it works well.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.01 16:09:00 -
[51]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 01/06/2010 16:12:49 1. chatgris was explaining advantages of current state of plexing and therefore didn't need to specify cruiser sized plexing = cruiser and below. 2. what advantage do you have at gate that you don't have in plex? GTFO option is greater in plex since there might be a camp on the other side of the gate to nail you. In plex you can GTFO anywhere you want. 3. read chatgris' link that explicitely describes after DT plexing issue.
Anyways, FW plex mechanics are botched, but they still provide some of the best ship-limited combat in the game. Like almost all combat in Eve however, both sides need to want to engage. NPCs limit enjoyment of pvp as the number of spawns increases - but this just means you need to bring more than your opponent into the plex.
WRT large gang combat: So, you get a bunch of your buddies together to rush the plex (takes a bit of time)... and the opponent in a T1 frig warps away. Your buddies curse you for bringing them all the way out to Maintenault (or some other far off system) to kill NPC rats or orbit a button with no fight.
WRT 1v1: 1v1 in fully spawned plex is nearly impossible. 1v1 in lightly spawned Caldari plex is nearly impossible too because you (me) get jammed the majority of the time. To get decent 1v1 you have to rush an unspawned plex. If the plex is one where the spawns don't trigger until you get within range of the button, then you get a good fight. Otherwise you have to get in, kill as quickly as possible, and then GTFO. And the main problem is there's no way to tell if the plex is spawned or not unless you warp in and risk getting tackled. In any case, defender who doesn't want a fight just bails and waits for respawn. Then he comes back with a bunch of NPC assistance. Bottom line: If defender is more interested in closing plex than fighting, then plexing warfare is really, really boring. If defender wants fight, plexing warfare is a blast.
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.01 16:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Syekuda If theres a proof, please tell it and show it to me.
Copied from my post above: It is the 14th post in this thread:
CCP Greyscale's Post on the matter.
It is an official dev post on the matter.
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Bucky O'Hair
Valklear Guard
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Posted - 2010.06.01 18:15:00 -
[53]
I support this thread.
I like the idea of a Pirate faction.
As to the DT plex spawn system, why cant there be a script to run it it at 4,6,8, or 12 hour intervals? That way all TZ's get a chance.
Bucky O'Hair
"If it flys it dies!"
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CzeroX
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Posted - 2010.06.02 04:49:00 -
[54]
Supported
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Theronth Valarax
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Posted - 2010.06.02 09:26:00 -
[55]
Supported.
Pirate FW is a nice idea. Also, adding some meaning to the system occupancy, would be nice. (OMS was Caldari, lol).
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Commoner
Caldari The Tuskers The Tusker Bastards
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:03:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Commoner on 02/06/2010 10:04:09 Edited by: Commoner on 02/06/2010 10:03:29 FW PVP:
1) OOOoooohhh! a plex just opened up..*warps to plex 2) Lands on plex, warps in....**** two targets, 1 mwd frigate taking all fire....1 bomber cloaking up 150km from entrance.... 3) 2 mins later, plex vanishes, mission finnished cause boss was killed... 4) Profit...(not)
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.02 15:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Commoner Edited by: Commoner on 02/06/2010 10:04:09 Edited by: Commoner on 02/06/2010 10:03:29 FW PVP:
1) OOOoooohhh! a plex just opened up..*warps to plex 2) Lands on plex, warps in....**** two targets, 1 mwd frigate taking all fire....1 bomber cloaking up 150km from entrance.... 3) 2 mins later, plex vanishes, mission finnished cause boss was killed... 4) Profit...(not)
Mission vanishes in two minutes because you didn't stay. However, I would also love for there to be a way to grief all FW missions. Currently there is only one: Cutting the Net. In this one you can grab the documents to keep him from completing his objective.
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Silva Firmfight
Tactical Terror Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.06.08 06:56:00 -
[58]
Easy way to encourage Plexing is do the following
-Remove the NPCs
Doing so encourages a PVP fight when not worried about the extra dps and ewar the select NPCs will do to you.
-Add Notices when a Plex is found and/or is being captured
Throwing a notice in Militia Chat as simple as "'Said Militia' has found a 'complex name' in 'System Name'" and "'Said Militia' will capture'complex name' in 'System Name' in 'time remaining'" Can rally a opposing militia to gang up and come for a fight, and also notifying in your own militia that friendlies are attempting a capture may garner support from those that just logged on or were clueless that a gang is out or in essense missed the gang
-Add a benefit to fighting in a Plex. Great things about the plexes is there is a set ship type that is allowed in to even the fights and make them interesting (Yes I know big ships can camp the gate and blobing can still ruin the up coming fights but bare with me.)
You already get a small bit of standing for capturing and a very little almost insignificant amount of LP for a FW kill. Why not boost the amount LP given for kills for Attacking/Defending in a plex and/or maybe insignificant standing too?. Why not make the award greater for a even fight or fighting against a bigger force and netting some kills. Maybe count it as a mission and give the amount a level 1-2 mission (without making it too profitable) depending on the length of the fight, participation, penalty added to blobbing.
They are just small things to do to boosting plexing and the fighting to systems that you can think about. It can breathe life into FW too making it more attractive while also not making it the next best isk maker and still keeping it about the fighting and the learning of PVP for the younger generation for their possible move to 0.0 |
Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.08 09:55:00 -
[59]
How 'bout they fix low-sec where Faction war largely occurs, then work on fixing FW. Or fix them both at once.
Or we could just accept that Ankhstupidnamekah's myopic appraisal for the games problems and the solutions is going to remain largely unaffected by other people anyways. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Ospie
Core Impulse
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Posted - 2010.06.08 10:45:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Ospie on 08/06/2010 10:50:37 Ok, there are a whole bunch of ideas in this thread I both agree and disagree with, so I won't pretend to address them all, however I'm going to throw my voice into the pool. Just a few ponderings more than anything fully coherent / thought out :)
Initial post: Short term goals are pretty straight forward, I agree with the bugs obviously and also plexes spawning throughout the day, forcing pvp in plexes/missions would be nice (move target spawn closer to warpin? Make missions harder to do, it's impossible to catch all but the slowest of people when a frig+sb combo will complete a lvl 4). I can see why some people would be upset about the fw missions (disparity between amarr/gallente missions vs minny/caldari missions is a little off) though doesn't bother me personally.
Mid term, the recent live events have been a lot of fun (although despite some form of reward being indicated [we assumed faction standing or something] we didn't notice anything, minor quibble there I suppose), I could see FW specific events being fairly successful. No preference on the other two.
Long term, there needs to be something that motivates people to actually go ahead and fight for space, benefits/consequences would be good though an exact approach is difficult, perhaps a few 'staging systems' cannot change hands, the rest can be contested, any mission agents in those systems are reversed (perhaps have the 'losing side' have agents on gates w/ lower quality, occupying faction has agents in station w/ higher quality?). Some form of pvp missions.. nice idea but I don't really see it happening unless it spawned a mission beacon that only a certain number of ships from each faction could enter at a given time, although this approach would lead to potential exploiting by using alts in opposing faction to fill up slots / get slaughtered by mains.
... Pirate FW.. YES PLEASE! Just balance the pirate ships a bit more.
Also as Graham said there are really ugly penalties for pilots repping outlaws participating in faction warfare in the sense they lose faction standings each rep cycle, also repping someone who sticks a smartbomb on and hits other faction members by accident leads to some really bad penalties PER rep cycle, one of our pilots went from 8.0 faction standing to -3 faction standing due to repping a new member to FW who was not aware of this whilst other militia members flew through his smartbombs. This is a mechanic which could also be easily exploitable to destroy hard earned standings (which are not easily recovered).
Oh yeah edit for +
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