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Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:09:00 -
[1]
Introduction
While PVE is not everyone's playstyle, a lot of players still rely on PVE as income source to fund other activities, whenether it is by grinding missions or running the same old 'exploration' sites over and over. CCP released not-so-epic mission arcs in their attempt to create exciting PVE content, but these obviously do not solve the problem as they just add more static content. In 2009, CCP answered that "Players like the grind and don't want surprises", which is a pretty stupid excuse for failing at creating interesting PVE content.
Dynamic Content
PVE content should be dynamic and/or modular. Missions and exploration sites should be generated from components randomly put together. Spawns can be dynamic and unpredictable as well, with a 'budget' to select rats from to ensure players aren't dropped in the middle of 50 battleships.
Missions and exploration sites could have multiple acceleration gates leading to new pockets (similar to worlds collide), with players having to find their way to the objective. Secondary, optional objectives should be included as well (similar to the Extravaganza Bonus Room, or the Secret Meeting envoy etc).
Competetive Missions
Another complaint is that missions are mostly solo content and that it scales into infinity, with agents offering unlimited missions to every pilot that visits them.
Instead, mini-events should occur in the game world, which spawn a hidden site. Agents will drop clues to the existence of this site. However, multiple players will soon learn of this mini-event. Players (or corporations) will have to compete with eachother to complete the objective first and claim the reward.
If players do not complete the mini-event in a set timeframe, the event may escalate and worsen, and more players will be informed of the situation and called into action.
An example of such a mission: The Guristas are building a base in a remote low-sec system. Some players are informed that something is up in that particular constellation, ships disappearing and so on. If the players manage to destroy the base, the threat is countered and succesful players rewarded. If nothing happens, then the base is completed. Rats start appearing in the belts and on the gates. Word arrives that the Guristas have seized a Caldari industrial full of military supplies, and hid it in a deadspace pocket in a nearby system to unload the goodies. Players are urged to act quickly, destroy the Guristas on-site and reclaim the empty industrial and fly it back to Caldari Navy base X. The corp/player that brings back the industrial gets a sizable reward. If the industrial gets destroyed, a small reward is granted to players on the killmail. If they fail doing either, the Guristas base receives some annoying turret upgrades. And so on.
Useful Links
Dynamic Events in Guild Wars 2 It can't get more dynamic than Dwarf Fortress Missions under Review (2008) Dynamic Missions (2009)
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Sir Fourhead
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.05.27 15:15:00 -
[2]
As long as these can be probed out normally. Also, rewards for helping out the Guristas (from your example) would be pretty cool. Please pardon the prissy overtones that will be found throughout this letter, but the reservoir from which CCP draws its lickspittles is primarily the masses of revolting enemies of the people. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:00:00 -
[3]
Sounds generally good. One thing that I have long been keen to promote is a move away from the idea of PvE scaling purely in more DPS + more tank vs bigger rats with more DPS and more tank.
There should be missions that need probing skills, tackling skills, speed, stealth... more than just "I have a X-type XL Booster so I win".
And the rats should be much less predictable, properly fitted and far fewer in number. Killing a BS class rat should be a significant challenge.
In short: fighting NPCs should be a lot more like fighting PCs. The benefits of this would be multiple
1 - much harder to macro/farm
2 - missioners would be much better able in both skills and equipment to deal with other players.
3 - PvEing would be much more exciting and fun. As you say, it is simply inexcusable for EVE to have such poor PVP. The only players that like missions being dull, predictable and repetitive are the ISK farmers.
Can you incorporate these concepts in to your proposal?
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Ankhesentapemkah
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Posted - 2010.05.27 17:42:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Malcanis Can you incorporate these concepts in to your proposal?
Was a bit short on characters but got your suggestions in there, I think.
---
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T'Amber
www.shipsofeve.com
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:32:00 -
[5]
I had a similar idea but you have said it much better
-T'amber
SHIPS OF EVE FIVE
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Radgette
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:43:00 -
[6]
anything that livens up the isk farm is a good idea
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2010.05.27 18:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Competetive Missions
Another complaint is that missions are mostly solo content and that it scales into infinity, with agents offering unlimited missions to every pilot that visits them.
Instead, mini-events should occur in the game world, which spawn a hidden site. Agents will drop clues to the existence of this site. However, multiple players will soon learn of this mini-event. Players (or corporations) will have to compete with eachother to complete the objective first and claim the reward.
If players do not complete the mini-event in a set timeframe, the event may escalate and worsen, and more players will be informed of the situation and called into action.
An example of such a mission: The Guristas are building a base in a remote low-sec system. Some players are informed that something is up in that particular constellation, ships disappearing and so on. If the players manage to destroy the base, the threat is countered and succesful players rewarded. If nothing happens, then the base is completed. Rats start appearing in the belts and on the gates. Word arrives that the Guristas have seized a Caldari industrial full of military supplies, and hid it in a deadspace pocket in a nearby system to unload the goodies. Players are urged to act quickly, destroy the Guristas on-site and reclaim the empty industrial and fly it back to Caldari Navy base X. The corp/player that brings back the industrial gets a sizable reward. If the industrial gets destroyed, a small reward is granted to players on the killmail. If they fail doing either, the Guristas base receives some annoying turret upgrades. And so on.
While I agree with most of your suggestion, "Competitive Missions" has a problem:
who will be informed? how he/she will be chosen?
Any system you implement will benefit someone more and some less and run the risk of people claiming that someone get a preferential treatment.
/support for the general idea.
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Astria Tiphareth
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.05.27 19:05:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 27/05/2010 19:05:58 I supported this when I proposed it (albeit much less artfully) two years ago. I support it now.
EVE's backstory has lots of opportunity for a dynamically evolving NPC system that can be directly influenced (and profited from) by player activities, and in the long run, it's cheaper than human-led events.
Heh - "Players like the grind and don't want surprises" - correction, CCP - MMO ex-WoW addicts don't know anything other than the grind, and suffer from conditioning to it. Those that don't aren't playing current grindy PvE MMOs. GW2 would not be doing what they are doing if they didn't think there was a market.
It'll be interesting (even just at the pure technical level) to see where GW2 goes with the concept anyway.
A good concept to throw around and develop on. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2010.05.27 19:16:00 -
[9]
Agreed!
I like all of this but missions scaled to the gang/fleet size when accepting the mission would be a nice challenge as well if you are going to integrate dynamic spawns this could be added as well.
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Solo Player
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Posted - 2010.05.27 23:49:00 -
[10]
Definitely a step into the right direction (even if a lot of it sounds like the public quests in W:AoR or what has been proposed more recently for GW2).
But: might you consider implementing this?
Dynamic Mission Quality - spawn more rewarding missions the less missions are taken and completed in a certain system/constellation (and vice versa)
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
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Posted - 2010.05.28 00:37:00 -
[11]
This is a good idea.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
el Sabor
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Posted - 2010.05.28 00:54:00 -
[12]
Love this idea. You should callthe proposal: "making missions fun". Perhaps the ideas could be integrated with the live events somehow?
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2010.05.28 04:49:00 -
[13]
Who really need any interesting mission running or ratting, those are just for grinding isk.
If you really need interesting content try to interact with other players, there is lot of ways to do that in eve.
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Spirulina Laxissima
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Posted - 2010.05.28 05:50:00 -
[14]
I'm for this, but you could leave some grind-missions for n00bs. That way, once your agents feel you're ready, they could gradually introduce you to this. (XP based?) There might be a need for a separate chat-channel that only gets accessible once you are referred by the agents. This would allow the n00bs learn to interact with other players on these missions. Maybe this could wean them off carebearedness? Yea, I know, that's what corps are for. But in practice they don't work for everyone.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.28 06:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Bad Messenger Who really need any interesting mission running or ratting, those are just for grinding isk.
If you really need interesting content try to interact with other players, there is lot of ways to do that in eve.
Or of course you could make that grinding isk interesting and fun instead of a stupid boring part of something that should be fun (a game).
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Ugly Eric
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Posted - 2010.05.28 07:03:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ugly Eric on 28/05/2010 07:05:02 The general proposition is good. I do not do missions nor plexes that much, simply beacause they are boring. When I do, its nullspace complexes, beacause of the distant feeling of PvP, when somebody comes to _my_ local and shoots hes/her combat probes out. Trying to finish the complex before being probed is a generally fun thingie. Ofcourse it ends up in a exploded ship every now and thenm, but thats EVE ;)
I know, that I will be butchered for this statement, but ... WoW has some good multiplayer PvE content. Instances. They really need tactic, they need a wery straight battleplan and they need wery good co-operation of players. Big part of WoW PvE is purely grinding, but there is those instances, that are wery easily compareable with deadspace complexes.
Now, Take the basic idea of WoW instances to EVE deadspace complexes, add dynamicity, and that would be the ultimate multiplayer PvE content of MMO's. It really makes me wonder, that doing a gurista mace with bs's needs about 3-5 RR BS's to accomplish, but is easily doable with two drakes. So I would like to see also the deadspace content to change in more intelligent direction so, that it has some means to make them unsoloable, or unduoable. I would like to see that if a single drake engages a 10/10 complex, all the sentry towers would be neut and web, but if coming with a fleet, there could be a little jamming, or sensor dampening.
However, I do not like the fact, that there is only two deadspace complexes that are not soloable with a single drake in a cheap deadspace hardener fitting. And this is not ment to be a challenge to nerf drake, but to make those complexes more intelligent so that they would recognize their enemies better. I do hate the drake, and I do not fly it by any means. I've been forced to train a tengu to that PvE (isk) content beacause of my principles of nbot flying a drake. So make my 90 day skillplan useless and do more intellect PvE content.
I would like to add, that the missionrunning intelligence could be a good way to add lowsec uniqicity (spelling?). Leave the highsec missions alone, make completely new set of intelligent missions to lowsec. and make those 0.0 deadspace complexes even more intelligent and fleet orientated. All this would ofcourse need a little buff in the reward department ^^
Eric
edit: spelling
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.28 12:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Malcanis Can you incorporate these concepts in to your proposal?
Was a bit short on characters but got your suggestions in there, I think.
In that case supported
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.28 12:46:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bad Messenger Who really need any interesting mission running or ratting, those are just for grinding isk.
If you really need interesting content try to interact with other players, there is lot of ways to do that in eve.
Why shouldn't making ISK also be fun?
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Entrepaz
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Posted - 2010.05.28 19:07:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Entrepaz on 28/05/2010 19:06:50 I really like this.
It would be great if NPC faction fleets of varying strength would strike out into the heart of eve, so that every planet moon and gate was attacked, camped, and then the pve community had to go destroy them.
Or just small roving band, or just anything besides these idiotic missions.
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Kaian Voskhod
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Posted - 2010.05.29 17:47:00 -
[20]
I like that
And what if the npc could be played by players just like in LOTR MMO
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Anna Lifera
Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.29 18:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Malcanis Why shouldn't making ISK also be fun?
so by your logic, the riskless profession of afk macro mining should be jazzed up too? how about we take out all tanking ability of mining barges, hell, exhumers too just to keep them on their toes? sounds great and i'll definitely have tons of fun! --- LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining!... At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot. - Jerid Verges |
Uncle Lim
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Posted - 2010.05.29 19:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Anna Lifera
Originally by: Malcanis Why shouldn't making ISK also be fun?
so by your logic, the riskless profession of afk macro mining should be jazzed up too?
I don't see why not. |
Anna Lifera
Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Uncle Lim I don't see why not.
awesome. mining ships never needed a tank since they're meant to mine, not tank anyway. --- LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining!... At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot. - Jerid Verges |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Anna Lifera
Originally by: Malcanis Why shouldn't making ISK also be fun?
so by your logic, the riskless profession of afk macro mining should be jazzed up too? how about we take out all tanking ability of mining barges, hell, exhumers too just to keep them on their toes? sounds great and i'll definitely have tons of fun!
Uh... what? What are you even talking about here? Please explain how you got that from what I said? I'm not seeing the connection.
I mean, are you seriously opposing making part of a game more fun?
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Uncle Lim
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Posted - 2010.05.29 20:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Anna Lifera
Originally by: Uncle Lim I don't see why not.
awesome. mining ships never needed a tank since they're meant to mine, not tank anyway.
Note that I was agreeing with the 'jazzed up' bit, not the 'remove tank' bit. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.29 22:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Anna Lifera
Originally by: Malcanis Why shouldn't making ISK also be fun?
so by your logic, the riskless profession of afk macro mining should be jazzed up too? how about we take out all tanking ability of mining barges, hell, exhumers too just to keep them on their toes? sounds great and i'll definitely have tons of fun!
Uh... what? What are you even talking about here? Please explain how you got that from what I said? I'm not seeing the connection.
I mean, are you seriously opposing making part of a game more fun?
Apparently.
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Anna Lifera
Gallente Imperial Legion of Amarr
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Posted - 2010.05.29 23:13:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Malcanis
Uh... what? What are you even talking about here? Please explain how you got that from what I said? I'm not seeing the connection.
I mean, are you seriously opposing making part of a game more fun?
u just don't get it--think about it. mining is boring and riskless. that's why i'm talking about making part of a game more fun in same way u want it to be--by removing all the tank from exhumers. that way, risk vs reward applies and there will never be a dull moment for the miners. call it an addition to this topic's proposal if u will. do u understand now?
Originally by: Uncle Lim Note that I was agreeing with the 'jazzed up' bit, not the 'remove tank' bit.
but as u can see, it's exactly what will "jazz up" your eve experience. --- LOLOLOL If anything, lvl4s require LESS effort then Mining!... At least in mining you have to check every 4 minutes to move the ore to the can. You're an idiot. - Jerid Verges |
Joao Neto
The Nietzsche Followers
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Posted - 2010.05.30 13:05:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Spirulina Laxissima Edited by: Spirulina Laxissima on 28/05/2010 05:58:58 I'm for this, but you could leave some grind-missions for n00bs. That way, once your agents feel you're ready, they could gradually introduce you to this. (XP based?)
Well, this could apply only to higher-level missions. level 1 and 2 could be entirely unchanged.
I'm actually enjoying the epic arc missions due to the fact that they are completely unknown to me, I mean: since I never did them before, it's like they were 'dynamic', or at least they give me that feeling. (worse explanation ever, hope you got my point lol).
Completely supported
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Dariah Stardweller
Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:02:00 -
[29]
The current PvE in EVE is so bad it oughta be taken behind the shed...
So yeah, supported.
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Gabriel Darkefyre
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.05.30 23:04:00 -
[30]
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Image from Crumplecorn's DesuSigs |
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