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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.05.28 09:16:00 -
[1]
TL;DR: - add to the tactical overlay a representation of ships' speed in the form of speed vectors (a white segment originating from the ships of length proportional to speed) well visible at any level of zoom.
- This feature should be an option of the esc menu to save on client cpu in case of need (big fleet fights)
- The overview should have a new filter to decide what ships show the speed vector (out of fleet, reds, dramiels only ...)
When doing a 1v1, I usually 'look at' my target to see what he's doing and anticipate the reaction time. When the numbers grow, I switch the look at between the various enemies, but it becomes impossible after a little number of targets.
Resorting to the overview, with its lagged and sporadic changes, is not enough, and also the overview is hard to follow when there's more than a handful of ships in the encounter. A graphic overview - in addition to the table - is needed.
Solution: ships show a vector that points in the direction where they're going, of length proportional to the ship's speed: a speed vector. Zoom level does not affect the vector length. This permits, at a glance, to see where everybody's moving to, even if zoomed out.
Possible variants: - smoke trails. The problem is that smoke trails disappear zooming out, I want this to be visible at large zoom levels to help small gang warfare. The two don't exclude each other anyway! Also, a vector causes much less performance issues.
Possible problems: - lag -- server side lag: none. The vector is a client only thing, the client builds it based on info it already gets, no new server coding is needed -- client side lag: possible. To avoid it completely, add an option under graphics in the esc menu to remove the speed vectors.
- crowded overview: possible. The overview filter should accommodate a new option to extend filters done for the overview to the speed vectors. You could then show or not the speed vectors based on the friendly/unfriendly/in fleet/... status of the ships.
Please support me! I am for small gangs warfare!
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.05.28 22:55:00 -
[2]
Thanks for the support! <3
Originally by: I'thari
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Zoom level does not affect the vector length. This permits, at a glance, to see where everybody's moving to, even if zoomed out.
Not really sure about this one tho. IMO, vector should represent distance ship will travel in a certain timeframe
It's important to see them when zoomed out, because even small gang engagements can be at fairly long distances. Maybe change the vectors when zooming but not so much as the zoom would make them as a compromise.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.05.31 08:59:00 -
[3]
Originally by: I'thari
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara It's important to see them when zoomed out, because even small gang engagements can be at fairly long distances. Maybe change the vectors when zooming but not so much as the zoom would make them as a compromise.
I agree that if it's just velocity vectors (not proportional to tactical gird) it's better to leave them more or less intact while zooming. But (if possible) having more information than "he goes that way and looks faster than the next guy" (I know you can check actuall velocity in overview, but still) would be nice. Something like distance traveled in 10s +/- should be visible enough, I think (that really depends on ship type, ofc)... but doesn't really matter as long as we'll have something.
I see what you mean, but I think that seeing the vectors on all levels of zoom is a bit more important. The information you seek can be more or less understood by comparing your own speed and your own velocity vector.
ON THE OTHER HAND, an idea: if the vectors show also a 'knot' (1 pixel wider or something) every say, minute of flight, you'd get your information perfectly :)
May be a bit too much to ask perhaps.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.06.01 13:04:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow I like the general idea but think it needs a bit more development. For example, velocity vector isn't the only thing you would be interested in; it might also help to know the envelope (the approximate surface that represents the places the target could reach in a certain period of time) based on what you know.
Furthermore, some thought has to be given to unintended consequences; this kind of vector would, for example, make it easier to figure out where a target is trying to warp to.
The envelope concept seems to be strictly zoom dependent, because if you zoom out the envelope would become littler. This seems to be the opposite of what I proposed. What I wrote also is quite simple, and the devs could build without a lot of effort.
About warping to, if you 'look at' a ship you can already understand that, or even if you keep it centered while it's warping. So yes it is an easier way to get information... But info that you already have.
About arrows - the vector imo shouldn't have arrows, as you can see where it starts and ends thanks to the ship brackets in space.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.06.08 08:56:00 -
[5]
Le bamp
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.06.19 12:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ryunosuke Kusanagi the only reason I couldnt see this pass, would be also the reason they cut engine trails from ships way back when, lag issues. if you coauld find a low-impact way to do vectors it would be nice I think
I see a clear distinction between vectors - each of which is just 1 line in 3d - and trails, that require the use of graphic effects such as particles and stuff. Also, the vectors should be possible to remove both altogether, as an esc menu option, and filtered, with the overview filters. Win win :)
Thanks for the support everybody... Keep it coming!
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.06.24 15:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Thanks for the support everybody... Keep it coming!
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.06.29 14:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ender Wiggan not this crappy MUD client substitute.
Lol :D ah the memories!
Thanks for the love keep it coming!!!!
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.07.12 10:29:00 -
[9]
Would it be more visible if I added [proposal] in the thread title?
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.07.20 09:30:00 -
[10]
Mmmm..... How can a good idea get more visibility? Is the idea not as good as I think?
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.07.27 13:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Aineko Macx
Originally by: Crumplecorn tl;dr: Bring back trails
This.
While the trails would help somewhat, they suffer two problems that my proposal avoids altogether:
- lag. A single vector per ship requires a lot less than particle trails. I also believe that trails provoked some server side lag, that my proposal avoids altogether (it uses only the information already gathered by the table overview)
- zoom. If you zoomed out completely, also in the old days with trails, you wouldn't be able to understand what was going on after a certain level of zoom just with trails. Vectors must not be zoom dependant: they can easily be fixed, so that you'll be able to quickly evaluate the speed of a ship at any level of zoom you're using.
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.07.29 19:18:00 -
[12]
Thanks guys, keep it coming!
Originally by: Anna Weston I'd like an acceleration vector as well as the velocity vector, though.
HA Now that's asking too much kiddin that would be great!
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Yankunytjatjara
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Posted - 2010.08.10 08:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: stoicfaux Wouldn't want to see the vectors for orbiting drones, so filtering would be important.
Argh :) I did say ships.. I agree
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Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.08.20 09:52:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 20/08/2010 09:52:40 Nice idea. The two vectors may be shown together: the transversal isn't anything but the projection of the speed to the plane that is perpendicular to the distance vector and on which the other ship lies. So the two vectors would form the two sides of a triangle, which would make it easier to assess the speeds in 3d.
Of course it would also double the clutter, so it's to be considered... Maybe options for the two and the user decides is best. I would always keep them both on in small gangs; I'd switch to the non small gang tab otherwise.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.08.21 13:52:00 -
[15]
My idea features a vector that is always the same length, disregarding the zoom level. This has two advantages:
- you can see the vectors also when zoomed out, so you can follow the general situation and drive your ship where you want - if you change the zoom a little, the vector won't change, so your assessment of the real speed based on the vector you see should be better.
About lag, yep, all calculations should be client based. No lag idea ftw!
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.09.06 16:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 20/08/2010 09:52:40 Nice idea. The two vectors may be shown together: the transversal isn't anything but the projection of the speed to the plane that is perpendicular to the distance vector and on which the other ship lies. So the two vectors would form the two sides of a triangle, which would make it easier to assess the speeds in 3d.
Of course it would also double the clutter, so it's to be considered... Maybe options for the two and the user decides is best. I would always keep them both on in small gangs; I'd switch to the non small gang tab otherwise.
I have to correct myself, the transversal is the absolute value of the difference between the two speed vectors.
Given this, maybe showing both the speed vector and the trasnversal would clutter things a bit too much actually. I'm not even sure I want to have the option of the transversal vector.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.09.08 12:14:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 08/09/2010 12:19:07
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow I've been reviewing the thread and giving this a bit of thought. I am starting to wonder if what is needed is not so much an actual vector, but some sort of overlay display that intuitively gives you the gestalt of what you need to know in a very compact form. Anyone who has watched SF Anime will know what I'm getting at.
So what data do we want to be able to "grok" just by looking at a ship?
* Direction and speed relative to the celestial sphere centered on my ship. * Radial velocity (heading towards and away from me). * Transversal -- or more particularly, are my gun(s) able to hit him?
Anything else?
I am thinking maybe a circle around each ship, with 2 180-degree arcs. The top arc is transversal, the bottom one is radial, and a small triangle moves around the outside of the circle to indicate transversal direction.
Arc size would indicate magnitude; arc colors would indicate things like towards/away and how well your guns might track.
Thoughts?
Cool ideas, but they could work less clearly than a simple vector in messy situations where you have to zoom out. Those indicators would overlap; if two vectors overlap it should still be clear enough given that they start from the ship, but circles and triangles not so much. And one of my objectives is to be able to see what nearby ships are doing when zooming out.
Maybe the current columns of the overview could be selected in order to add to your tactical overlay either speed, or trasnversal, or radial and so on, as vectors. I'm also trying here to minimize programmer's work.
Edit: your ideas would however be awesome if one could mouse-select a blob and see the average or median speed/transversal/...
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.09.10 13:01:00 -
[18]
To avoid clutter, instead of graphics and icons, use a simple segment
I don't want to see where the locked ships go - in a frig once I lock them everything is decided anyway. I want to understand at a glance what the whole enemy blob is doing. Speed vectors are perfect why do you not like the idea? Is it too simple? The simple ideas are the best ones.
Moreover, it blends well into the currently existing tactical overlay, and is a lot less onerous a work for the devs.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.09.10 13:05:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow There has to be a way to limit the amount of information to prevent clutter, and in the heat of battle, doing a lot of display selection isn't going to be optimal anyway.
The display selection bit is done before battle, exactly like you twiddle with your overview settings. You probably don't want to see this for your fleet, for neutrals if you're in highsec, and pods. You want to see it for war/FW targets, and neutrals in lowsec and highsec.
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Let's work on clarifying various approaches over the next two weeks, so that I can raise it in the CSM meeting at the end of the month.
Woot!!! \o/
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat Edited by: Nuts Nougat on 15/09/2010 15:14:57
Originally by: Crumplecorn tl;dr: Bring back trails
This.
Thumbsup edit
Thankas for the up.
The trails are something different, I don't oppose them but they don't work when zoomed out.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
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Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.28 18:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Raimo Great idea, vector would be pointing forward I hope, for engine trails need the rear
No I want backwards vectors. Just to **** off the bittervets
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:12:00 -
[22]
Thanks for the support everybody.
Originally by: Arctic Monkey I was thinking the same thing reading the first few pages. Vectors or whatever the new information is ... should only be displayed on the player's ship and the locked targets to reduce clutter and let us very easily decide which ships we want to pay attention to. New info should also shown on any ship selected or hovered over in the overview, so you can check on distant ships or fleets, or even maintain "eyes" on a nearby ship if you get jammed or sensor damped.
Against the forced selectivity. I think we come from different backgrounds, maybe in great fleet battles that would be a good compromise as you wouldn't get much out of 150 vectors anyway. But in a small gang I need the info immediately, once I lock eone the battle is 90% over.
Moreover, there's a better way to present the kind of information you seek: you should imo be able to select 100 ships and see the average or median vectors. But I'll leave that proposal up to you
Finally the two ideas are not exclusive to each other, I need them all, you need a selection, the solution is obvious: make the choice box for activating this feature a drop down combo instead (VECTORS: no (default)/all/selection only).
Please also keep in mind, regarding clutter, that the proposal asks for the option of selecting vectors based on the overview status, as already happens for ships and drones. You can remove your fleet's ships vectors for example, or keep only those if you are a logistics pilot.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2011.01.04 16:34:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Yankunytjatjara on 04/01/2011 16:35:42
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Ephemeron maybe show all this stuff for targeted ships only
Would be near perfect if it wasn't for the atrocious locking range of the ships to which speed matters most: Lights.
Just the idea of being able to open the overlay and be able to see movement of ships grid wide makes me salivate .. very Homeworldy
Thanks for the support. About your critics, I respectfully disagree: - locked ships: bad, once something's locked in frig combat the fight is mostly over. - only ten, or only quicker than you: it becomes really confusing when there are some who pulse the mwd. The solution is to provide a proper filter, so that the user is able to exclude ships from his fleet/corp/alliance, as it currently works with the overview tabs. Of course for large fleet battles this is less useful, but the tactical overlay can be turned off quickly, and any client side lag this would generate is therefore not an issue.
EDIT on a second thought, adding a shortcut to turn on and off the overlay seems a good point for this proposal. I will edit the first post accordingly.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2011.02.04 12:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shaera Taam as a player who flies almost-exclusively with the tac map up, ive gotten quite good at guestimating most of this info from what little we have on the screen... but i must say that this idea gets all-kinds of support from me!
imho, a simple vector segment originating at ship's center, at a length proportional to the tac overlay itself in km/s makes the most sense to me. ships that move at 3km/s (dram, yaay!) would show a 3km long segment, pointing in their real-time direction. it would be up to me to evaluate my target's changes in direction and maneuver accordingly.
tbh, i see the merit in quite a few of the suggestions in this thread... vectors, relative, absolute, semi-circles and triangles, transverse velocity, radial velocity, acceleration, target envelopes, innies, outties, i dont care! i just want more tac info on my tac overlay!
so long as all the options are generated client-side, de-selectable and customizable on the esc menu, i dont see how is this *not* a good thing? a veritable treasure-trove of information to help us pew-pew each other into space-dust and not a single bit of it adding to server lag FTW!
ST
<3 I wish I could sell my ideas so eloquently!
Only one nitpicking: I proposed to make the vectors constant in length to make it possible to see them when zoomed out. This excludes the length relativeness to speed that you propose. Ideally, we should be able to select between the two visuals...
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2011.03.08 13:47:00 -
[25]
Yes that's a good example, although the arrow for a baddon would probably be way shorter
I also think that just the vector, rather than an arrow, would be cleaner.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
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Posted - 2011.04.11 11:37:00 -
[26]
Thanks for all the support everybody.
Please renew on the new forums as soon as they come up! I opened the same discussion there when they were open, hopefully the topic will stay.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.08.02 09:56:00 -
[27]
Damn, I was on holiday and missed the chance to lobby for my idea to get in the crowdsourcing initiative. Too bad that a CSM guy who answered in the thread failed to remember it. Dang! Double dang!
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.08.16 08:27:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jekyl Eraser Maybe there could be 2 lines, one for the direction, 3d line that is allways same length.
Thanks for your input! I respectfully disagree, two lines per ships means double the screen cluttering. While I see your point I think that the drawback is more than the advantage. Consider that to make out the 3d-2d projections, you just have to move the camera a little bit with the right mouse button.
On the other hand it could be a menu option.
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.08.30 08:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Woodiex3 Edited by: Woodiex3 on 17/08/2011 21:28:39 ...
I thank you for your silent approval
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.09.01 06:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Sam Lonnigan Edited by: Sam Lonnigan on 31/08/2011 18:12:26 Edited by: Sam Lonnigan on 31/08/2011 18:08:46 Good idea. To cut down on overview clutter, only show vectors for selected target/ object instead of everything on a grid, or have it as an option in settings to show vectors for all locked targets + a selected object regardless of weather or not it is locked.
Possibly a max limit of 15 simultaneous vectors to prevent some shenanigans with automatic targeting systems.
Thanks for your support. I disagree with the 'locked only' or 'selected only' filters because small gangs means quick action, you have seconds to react if a tackler comes for you, you don't want to miss it because you hadn't selected it. Clutter should be reduced enough using the overview rules to show/hide the vectors. It could however be added as an additional overview rule, so you have the option but you don't have to use it.
About the limit, consider that after all each ship drawn on screen is already quite a number of lines (and textures), it doesn't seem reasonable to me that one more vector per ship may slow down the client. What shenanigans are you thinking about?
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
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Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.09.07 16:39:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Rina Asanari Perhaps the tactical overlay could be made configurable in regards what elements are shown for all ships/the selected ship or not at all?
Yes, that's at least what I was trying to say in my OP lol
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.09.09 15:02:00 -
[32]
M8 that makes so much sense that I have edited my proposal changing the segment from white to the same overview top category. Thanks!
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
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