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sabre906
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Posted - 2010.05.30 13:50:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Dzajic Low sec already has theoretically much higher rewards than high sec, you know?
Tons and tons of Q20 L4 agents (and the +10% to reward for each 0.1 decrease of system sec), and all L5 agents (and now you again cant do L5s in high sec). Better ores in belts, better cosmic and other scanable anomalies.
Yes I do know that. And cleary it's not enough to attract players from highsec.
L4s are the reason why players are playing hello kitty singleplayer game in highsec.
Correction: L4s are the reason why 90% of players are paying CCP a monthly fee. People stay in highsec because it's safe, not because it's rewarding. They then skip ahead to alliance null because it's safe, and it's rewarding. They do not go to lowsec because it's unsafe. It's as simple as that.
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Segana Tulanari
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Posted - 2010.05.30 13:55:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
L4s are the reason why players are playing hello kitty singleplayer game in highsec.
Where is there a problem? If this is what thay want to do... let them ;) The 2nd time I'll try it: 0.0 is not that big interesting thing, that most players attract. May be, CCP beliefs this and You too.. but most player does not. Not more ISK brings people to 0.0, but better content and better workflows/issues.
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Troll o'Ninetails
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Posted - 2010.05.30 13:58:00 -
[63]
Op, why the **** are you whining so much? I mean ever heard of adapting? I was whining a bit aswell when I didnt run missions. Ive done absolutely all branches in this game I can think of except supercap production.
Adapt or quit you ****ing nerfmongering *****. X ♥ VOTE TROLL ♥ |
Goose99
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Posted - 2010.05.30 14:35:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Troll o'Ninetails Op, why the **** are you whining so much? I mean ever heard of adapting? I was whining a bit aswell when I didnt run missions. Ive done absolutely all branches in this game I can think of except supercap production.
Adapt or quit you ****ing nerfmongering *****.
Why are you whining about other people whining?
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Alfa Lavala
Traders Industrialists and Miners of EVE
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Posted - 2010.05.30 15:26:00 -
[65]
CCP should delete the forums.
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Asuri Kinnes
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.05.30 15:49:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis Right now there is 36 alliances with over 1000 members in their ranks. Little over 1 year ago this number was under 20.
If this is already happening... WHERES the problem!?!
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis I do know that. I do that myself.
But as we do know, highsec is filled of L4 mission runners, so simply the rewards are still too high.
Again, your assuming that the *only* possible reason to stay/be in hi-sec is for lvl 4's? Your Hubris is astounding.
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis I am not saying that L4s should be removed, their total income just needs to be removed much more than it is now. If 0.0 pays out 6-8 times more than highsec, then it is starting to be enough for the risk and I am totally sure that players would notice it.
Anyway, the transfer has already started and every day, more and more players are packing their ships and leaving empire.
So - your basically saying there *is* no problem...
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Dzajic Low sec already has theoretically much higher rewards than high sec, you know?
Tons and tons of Q20 L4 agents (and the +10% to reward for each 0.1 decrease of system sec), and all L5 agents (and now you again cant do L5s in high sec). Better ores in belts, better cosmic and other scanable anomalies.
Yes I do know that. And cleary it's not enough to attract players from highsec.
L4s are the reason why players are playing hello kitty singleplayer game in highsec.
Or maybe... just maybe... They don't want to play low-sec/0.0 - and don't have to... Also - your quote that they are playing "single player" presupposes that *you* have any dam clue on whether or not they are playing alongside others, or chatting with their friends. You cannot possibly know that.
You have fairly well revealed that you have no clue why people stay in Hi-sec. Some may stay because of lvl 4's (but I seriously doubt that its any great number). Those players, who are not alts of low-sec and 0.0 players, stay because low-sec and 0.0 just aren't interesting to them, or they aren't ready themselves, as players to go there.
Let me repeat that; Low-sec and Null-sec aren't interesting to those players, or they don't feel prepared.
Your proposal will do nothing for those groups (who are probably far larger than the pure missioners alone) and will actually alienate those groups.
People also go/follow where their friends are. If they just want to log in, runs some missions with their friends, and log out - they have every right to do so.
Whether you, or CCP wants people to move is irrelevant - because you *cannot* force people to go where they don't want to go.
Nerfing lvl 4 mission rewards will not move people to low-sec/null-sec.
And quite frankly, you appear to be congenitally incapable of understanding any position besides your own. Either that or you completely suck at getting your point across...
Stop sucking. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist NO! |
Backho
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:08:00 -
[67]
Payoff from lowsec and wormholes are 2~10x more rewarding then high sec.
High sec mission runners play a significant role in the economy. Every 2-4 hours of mission running, another Caldari navy item is released into the market.
Mission running is the ONLY source of these modules into the market.
Now do you think we have enough CN items? Most pvp ships doesnt even bother having these items because its too expensive.
This is why we actually need rewards of high sec to be increased, so that more modules could be released into the market, thereafter increasing the quality of everyone's pvp ships.
Secondly, it is YOUR/PIRATE's fault that no one is going to low sec. If pirate/low sec alliances are willing to give protection instead of fragging even beginners ship and industrials, more people will go into low sec.
But instead you frag beginner ships and industrials. who would want to go into that kind of enviroment? yes. nobody.
This is a sandbox. Most consequences are mostly not caused by the hands of god, but by players.
The reason low sec is desolate, is of course. because of players.
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Norm Tempesta
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:19:00 -
[68]
I could point out a lot of obvious reasons and explanations like other people already have but............OP<-----what a maroon.......
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:47:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Secondly, mining profits increases linearly with the ammount of accounts you have For example: 1 account = 10m/hour 2account =20m/hour 3 account 30m/hour etc etc.
However mission running does NOT scale linearly to the ammount of accounts
There's that tiny detail about "increasing amounts of accounts" has a cost.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:55:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
Secondly, mining profits increases linearly with the ammount of accounts you have For example: 1 account = 10m/hour 2account =20m/hour 3 account 30m/hour etc etc.
However mission running does NOT scale linearly to the ammount of accounts
There's that tiny detail about "increasing amounts of accounts" has a cost.
Macromine and buy plex. See how well "linear" mining works now?
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Scarlet Crimson
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Posted - 2010.05.30 17:21:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Wet Ferret Troll or stupid? Can't decide.
You seriously don't have a clue... Wormholes was the first big step in this, Dominion was second. And the big one is coming. Players should be colonizing the 0.0, but most of 0.0 is empty - nobody doing anything there.
Problem is way too high rewards in highsec. The safety is as high as possible, as it should be. But rewards are too high.
hi sec rewards too high? Even with todays prices nothing makes more isk than null sec mining. The problem lies with the risk factor of null sec and or the lack of access to it. Null sec allows players to kill other players without any consequences.( save being the loser, but how often does the attacker loose in eve :p ) So many players who would never pod in low sec will in null sec and in wspace. Making Nullsec a pvp venue ( the main point here ). There is not a lot of isk in pvp. ( btw I am not complaining about this, just pointing it out )
Also the isk in level 4 missions is greatly over rated. Many of them take over an hour to do solo and almost as long to salvage and loot afterwards. There are also lots of level 4 missions that are worthless for isk. The most isk you can make with loyalty points is 10 million per 15,000 ( selling social skill books )this is speaking to profits. selling the faction bs is rather low in profits. ) That is less than 1 mill isk for ever thousand lp. Not a huge isky farm as is.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.05.30 17:27:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Scarlet Crimson
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Wet Ferret Troll or stupid? Can't decide.
You seriously don't have a clue... Wormholes was the first big step in this, Dominion was second. And the big one is coming. Players should be colonizing the 0.0, but most of 0.0 is empty - nobody doing anything there.
Problem is way too high rewards in highsec. The safety is as high as possible, as it should be. But rewards are too high.
hi sec rewards too high? Even with todays prices nothing makes more isk than null sec mining. The problem lies with the risk factor of null sec and or the lack of access to it. Null sec allows players to kill other players without any consequences.( save being the loser, but how often does the attacker loose in eve :p ) So many players who would never pod in low sec will in null sec and in wspace. Making Nullsec a pvp venue ( the main point here ). There is not a lot of isk in pvp. ( btw I am not complaining about this, just pointing it out )
Also the isk in level 4 missions is greatly over rated. Many of them take over an hour to do solo and almost as long to salvage and loot afterwards. There are also lots of level 4 missions that are worthless for isk. The most isk you can make with loyalty points is 10 million per 15,000 ( selling social skill books )this is speaking to profits. selling the faction bs is rather low in profits. ) That is less than 1 mill isk for ever thousand lp. Not a huge isky farm as is.
When it comes to nullsec, it's not risk, just access. You can go for weeks on end without seeing a single non-blue in some of the backwater null systems within friendly territory. You're more likely to get suicide ganked in the busier highsec hubs than getting killed in nullsec backwater.
The real limiting factor is nullsec alliances won't accept people with less than, say, 90 mil SP. So overwhelming majority of eve players have no access.
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Ambraley
Amarr Belt-Snakes
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Posted - 2010.05.30 17:52:00 -
[73]
I am a missionrunning "carebear" and I enjoy it. Why you ask? Because I can log into the game for some hours every day, earn a decent reward, min/max my fitting and have a good time with a friend of mine doing missions. If you reduce the rewards in high sec past my breaking point, I will find a different game to enjoy.
There are many people just like me. They enjoy a relaxing, interesting gaming experience, with the option to participate in PvP, if they so choose. They won't stay in a game to increase some "pirates" (there are very few people in this game fitting this word, by the way) sense of selfworth, by providing him with an easy target.
Call missionrunners worthless all you want, but we still pay the monthly fee, just like you. If you honestly believe CCP will shoot themselves in the foot by driving those people away, you are delusional and I have a shiny bridge to sell to you.
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Miriiah
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Posted - 2010.05.30 18:10:00 -
[74]
Yeah, just move lvl 4's to low sec, but as soon as you get attacked/ganked rats should stop shooting you and your fit should automatically change to a pvp fit, I'd be happy to farm my isk in low sec that way!
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Afrodite Draconis
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Posted - 2010.05.30 18:20:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Goose99
The real limiting factor is nullsec alliances won't accept people with less than, say, 90 mil SP. So overwhelming majority of eve players have no access.
That's total bull****.
Even top 10 largest alliances has corporations wich accept under 20 M SP pilots.
It's not about the largest alliances, it's about the small and medium sized corporations and alliances wich are terribly lacking members since players feel too confort farming ISK in highsec. Too much rewards.
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Ambraley
Amarr Belt-Snakes
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Posted - 2010.05.30 18:31:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
It's not about the largest alliances, it's about the small and medium sized corporations and alliances wich are terribly lacking members since players feel too confort farming ISK in highsec. Too much rewards.
Listen to yourself for a moment. You want to force (because they clearly chose something else to do) other players to do what you consider to be "right". Do you honestly believe that to be an ejoyable experience for them? That this is good design pilosophy for a game?
I'll repeat it for you: If you decrease rewards in highsec past a certain breaking point and don't adjust the risk/reward ratio in lowsec, you will only alienate these players, instead of getting new recruits.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.05.30 19:01:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Goose99
The real limiting factor is nullsec alliances won't accept people with less than, say, 90 mil SP. So overwhelming majority of eve players have no access.
That's total bull****.
Even top 10 largest alliances has corporations wich accept under 20 M SP pilots.
It's not about the largest alliances, it's about the small and medium sized corporations and alliances wich are terribly lacking members since players feel too confort farming ISK in highsec. Too much rewards.
Only if you're their friend/alt. Take a look at the recruitment threads here in the forum. Not only that, many require good killboard. Those are all limiting factors. The fact is, if one of the big guys don't want you in their nullsec, you're locked out. They control game content, not CCP. No amount of highsec nerf by CCP will get highsec carebears into null because they can't get in if they want to.
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.05.30 19:07:00 -
[78]
There are more things in hi sec that make more ISK than lvl 4s. Lvl 4s are just an easy scapegoat.
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Beer Buzz
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Posted - 2010.05.30 19:13:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Julienne Poirier mmm, the tears are sweet
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Iamid Ichabod
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Posted - 2010.05.30 19:15:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Goose99
The real limiting factor is nullsec alliances won't accept people with less than, say, 90 mil SP. So overwhelming majority of eve players have no access.
That's total bull****.
Even top 10 largest alliances has corporations wich accept under 20 M SP pilots.
It's not about the largest alliances, it's about the small and medium sized corporations and alliances wich are terribly lacking members since players feel too confort farming ISK in highsec. Too much rewards.
The gross rewards have been and continue to be higher in secs lower than high sec, but the net rewards may be lower for some players. However, this is not a pure result of game design, but also the playing style of some its players.
Further, being a part of a corp including small or mid sized takes a time investment and commitment some people just don't have to give, or perhaps they just aren't social. This has nothing to do with income rewards.
Lastly, with the exception of Marauders being added to the game, high sec level 4 missioning has been continuously nerfed since I began playing to differing degrees (over 3 years now), not 1 time did this add significantly to low sec population. Adding game content such as Faction War has. Adding game content such has W-Space has also drawn some from High Sec.
If you want to draw people from high sec to low sec to income they must by definition be able to earn a profit reliably. Add content so players en masse can do this than they will come. |
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Veryez
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Posted - 2010.05.30 19:23:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis Edited by: Afrodite Draconis on 30/05/2010 10:41:48 CCP is not the only one desiring people to colonize outlaw space.
Ironically enough CCP has repeatedly stated that EvE is a sandbox where players can do what they want...I believe CCP wants the players to enjoy their game, however they want to play it. Perhaps some of the "older" players are tired of the lagfests/blobfests that seem to happen all too often in 0.0. Perhaps some have grown tired of "capships online", or maybe the puerile politics that seem so prevalent in 0.0. Some have even realized that the markets in highsec will always be bigger. There are many reasons to not live in 0.0 that have nothing to do with lvl 4 missions.
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Asuri Kinnes
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.05.30 19:55:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Goose99
The real limiting factor is nullsec alliances won't accept people with less than, say, 90 mil SP. So overwhelming majority of eve players have no access.
That's total bull****.
Even top 10 largest alliances has corporations wich accept under 20 M SP pilots.
It's not about the largest alliances, it's about the small and medium sized corporations and alliances wich are terribly lacking members since players feel too confort farming ISK in highsec. Too much rewards.
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis Right now there is 36 alliances with over 1000 members in their ranks. Little over 1 year ago this number was under 20.
If this is already happening... WHERES the problem!?!
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis I do know that. I do that myself.
But as we do know, highsec is filled of L4 mission runners, so simply the rewards are still too high.
Again, your assuming that the *only* possible reason to stay/be in hi-sec is for lvl 4's? Your Hubris is astounding.
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis I am not saying that L4s should be removed, their total income just needs to be removed much more than it is now. If 0.0 pays out 6-8 times more than highsec, then it is starting to be enough for the risk and I am totally sure that players would notice it.
Anyway, the transfer has already started and every day, more and more players are packing their ships and leaving empire.
So - your basically saying there *is* no problem... Which is it dude, either its happening (which your own numbers seem to support) or its not... Again, Lvl 4's aren't the reason the majority of Hi-Sec dwellers (non low-sec/null-sec alts)don't leave Hi-Sec, there are a myriad of reasons.
Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist NO! |
Jypsie
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Posted - 2010.05.30 21:40:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis
Originally by: Goose99
The real limiting factor is nullsec alliances won't accept people with less than, say, 90 mil SP. So overwhelming majority of eve players have no access.
That's total bull****.
Even top 10 largest alliances has corporations wich accept under 20 M SP pilots.
It's not about the largest alliances, it's about the small and medium sized corporations and alliances wich are terribly lacking members since players feel too confort farming ISK in highsec. Too much rewards.
Then those small and medium sized corporations and alliances should merge. Problem solved and all without changing a damn thing.
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Ka choop
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Posted - 2010.05.30 21:49:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis L4 missions are still way too good income in highsec compared to other ways of making ISK. Mining gives you around 10 M ISK/hour at maximum, and I think L4 missions should give around that too.
Why? Tell me why. You state something as a fact but don't convince me.
First get down to the "why is current income from lvl 4 missions bad for the game?"
Then come back.
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Afrodite Draconis
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Posted - 2010.05.31 06:55:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ka choop
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis L4 missions are still way too good income in highsec compared to other ways of making ISK. Mining gives you around 10 M ISK/hour at maximum, and I think L4 missions should give around that too.
Why? Tell me why. You state something as a fact but don't convince me.
First get down to the "why is current income from lvl 4 missions bad for the game?"
Then come back.
Highsec professions are unbalanced, because L4 missions give too much rewards.
L4 missions cause tons of load for zero contributing into game, they reduce the value of ISK and many players play for few months, only doing missions, and then quiting because they think that's it after they have got into L4.
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thorax spartan
Everyday Discipline
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Posted - 2010.05.31 07:21:00 -
[86]
ok i gota have my 2cents worth here...... 1) raising the lp store prices- bad idea were the hell do u think all those faction guns and dmg mods/reps cm from? oh yeah the mission runners
2)drop meta 0 loot - good idea will help miners/industrials
3)drop bounties 20/30% - very bad idea - if peeps want to stay in highsec running missions let them, but by forcing them to move is both stupid on yr's and ccp's part some just like to stay running missions/chating with friends etc who are you to say what or how they play thier game?.
gimping profits will do nothing but force peeps to quit which is bad for every one. $)increase distance for missions - ccp done this and it has forced peeps deeper into highsec adn those that run missions in lowsec outa the area(which by argument u want more peeps in lowsec)
ok missions may need a revamp for eve as whole but foring people outa highsec into null/lowsec is stupid.
some players belve it or not just wana chill out and dont want the bagage that cms with a null sec allience or lowsec pvp corp
it dont matter how much lowsec/null sec rewards are buffed(most players already know they can earn waaaaay more isk in exploration/whspace etc) they just dont want to be forced to move and play THIER game the way others say it should be played.
thor
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Ka choop
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Posted - 2010.05.31 07:33:00 -
[87]
the breakdown of arguments to nerf lvl 4 mission is always something along the lines of:
1-plox gief moar targets in low-sec. 2-they get more ISK then I do. 3-"mining" lvl 4 missions gives more minerals then real mining lol.
3 has been fixed, 1 and 2 aren't real arguments.
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Nahir
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Posted - 2010.05.31 07:59:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Ka choop the breakdown of arguments to nerf lvl 4 mission is always something along the lines of:
1-plox gief moar targets in low-sec. 2-they get more ISK then I do. 3-"mining" lvl 4 missions gives more minerals then real mining lol.
3 has been fixed, 1 and 2 aren't real arguments.
/signed |
Backho
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Posted - 2010.05.31 08:57:00 -
[89]
Quote: Secondly, mining profits increases linearly with the ammount of accounts you have For example: 1 account = 10m/hour 2account =20m/hour 3 account 30m/hour etc etc.
However mission running does NOT scale linearly to the ammount of accounts
Quoting myself Yes. it Increases LINEARLY. when you earn 7-8m per account, you generate 5.2b per month per account. 5.2b-340m = 4.9b. Definitely not even phasing the profits.
Thats why i said it increases linearly. If i had 20 mining accounts, i can make it such that it generates approximately 4.9b x 20 ~9x b
But if i had 20 mission runner accounts, it will definitely not payed out after the 2nd of the 3rd.
IE: mining = 100b a month mission running = play 23/07 = 30m/hr = only 20b a month.
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M'iranna
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Posted - 2010.05.31 10:25:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Afrodite Draconis The missions are same, they don't use the ISK on anything. Like you said, they don't log in when there is war. Do we need that kind of players? That isn't the game CCP has in it's vision.
Missions are part of NPE and they shouldn't be the end game in any way.
WTF needs your selfish kind of player who only cares about him/herself?
Who are you telling us what kind of player Eve needs?
I tell you what will happen when level4s are gonna get nerfed to death. Many people will leave. You should have guessed this if you just learned to think.
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