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Xiozor
Green Void Inc
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Posted - 2010.05.30 09:19:00 -
[1]
If it just stopped high slot modules from working rather than breaking lock altogether? The reason CCP nerfed warp core stabs and various other things is because they decided that it should be difficult for a ship to disengage from combat after engaging which I agree with, and as it stands I have had a target get away from me because of ECM drones or a lucky jammer far too many times.
Where as right now if someone brings a jamming ship to the party, the only way to give yourself 50% protection is to devote 2 slots to it that are otherwise useless.
Tracking disruptors, Neuts, Sensor dampeners can all be equally as debilitating however their counters actually benefit your ships performance if that EWAR is not being used on you, ECCM does not. ----------------------------------------------- Mr.Kippling just launched a nuclear holocaust at third world countries! ... But he does make exceedingly good cakes. |
TheLordofAllandNothing
Caldari NailorTech Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.30 09:42:00 -
[2]
Cry some more / Fit more eccm. Seriously those are your choices, and ECCM does benefit your ships performance by making you not get jammed as well as making it harder for you to be probed out!
_______________________ Fix rockets in '09 =( |
Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.05.30 10:17:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 30/05/2010 10:19:45
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Cry some more / Fit more eccm. Seriously those are your choices, and ECCM does benefit your ships performance by making you not get jammed as well as making it harder for you to be probed out!
Yes, because ECCM always helps doesn't it, not like it cripples your ship to have a decent chance (And only decent) to not get jammed by a ECM boat. And it's always so useful having a prober take an extra few seconds to find you, and that's if you've crippled your fit to be a shadow of what it was.
/sarcasm
The only way to deal with an ECM boat is to bring more people. But I guess the game's just getting that way. ------------------------
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AFK FAPPING
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:00:00 -
[4]
I'd like to see ECM be a little less useful as a gtfo option, but still useful as a force multiplier. ECM drones are just too overpowered if you want to get away, and I say that as someone that uses them rather than gets them used on me.
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Cry some more / Fit more eccm. Seriously those are your choices, and ECCM does benefit your ships performance by making you not get jammed as well as making it harder for you to be probed out!
Go whine somewhere else. The op was not crying, but submitting an idea on how to make the game better and more balanced (in their opinion). Setting up a strawman does no good for anyone.
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Legs Mackenzie
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:02:00 -
[5]
Why would anyone use sensor damps, when you can just lock them out completely with ECM is beyond me.
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Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shade Millith Edited by: Shade Millith on 30/05/2010 10:19:45
Originally by: TheLordofAllandNothing Cry some more / Fit more eccm. Seriously those are your choices, and ECCM does benefit your ships performance by making you not get jammed as well as making it harder for you to be probed out!
Yes, because ECCM always helps doesn't it, not like it cripples your ship to have a decent chance (And only decent) to not get jammed by a ECM boat. And it's always so useful having a prober take an extra few seconds to find you, and that's if you've crippled your fit to be a shadow of what it was.
/sarcasm
The only way to deal with an ECM boat is to bring more people. But I guess the game's just getting that way.
Why ECCM is fine and you should all stop whining. By Dierdra Vaal and SCIENCE!
Ships used in these examples Max Jam Falcon (unlikely to encounter in practice): 3x Signal Distortion Amplifier II 1x Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor II Recon V, Signal Dispersion V
Aproximate price: 195.5m (Jita prices May 7th) Effective hitpoints: 6466
Racial Jammer strength: On-race 15.28486 Off-race 5.09495
Multispectral Jammer strength: 10.18991
Target (weakest sensor BS): Armageddon + 2x ECCM - Radar II 61.1 sensor strength
========================================== Chance to jam with 1 jammer: On-race 0.25016 (25%) Off-race 0.08339 (8%) Multispec 0.16677 (17%)
Chance to jam with a full (7) rack On-race [ 1 - ((1 - 0.25016)^7) ] = 0.86672 (87%) Off-race [ 1 - ((1 - 0.08339)^7) ] = 0.45638 (46%) Multispec [ 1 - ((1 - 0.16677)^7) ] = 0.72116 (72%)
Chance to jam with a half (3) rack On-race [ 1 - ((1 - 0.25016)^3) ] = 0.57839 (58%) Off-race [ 1 - ((1 - 0.08339)^3) ] = 0.22989 (23%) Multispec [ 1 - ((1 - 0.16677)^3) ] = 0.42151 (42%)
Chance to jam with 2 On-race, 5 Off-race [ 1 - ( (1 - 0.25016)^2 * (1 - 0.08339)^5) ] = 0.63620 (64%)
Chance to jam for 1 minute with a full rack On-race [ 0.866715322^3 ] = 0.65107 (65%) Off-race [ 0.456384117^3 ] = 0.09506 (10%) Multispec [ 0.721160506^3 ] = 0.37506 (38%)
Chance to jam for 1 minute with half a rack On-race [ 0.578394942^3 ] = 0.19350 (19%) Off-race [ 0.229888209^3 ] = 0.01215 (1%) Multispec [ 0.421511547^3 ] = 0.07489 (7%)
Chance to jam for 1 minute with 2 On-race, 5 Off-race [ 0.636202121^3 ] = 0.25750 (26%)
==========================================
Director of Education :: EVE University
CSM1 delegate and CSM3 chairman
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:13:00 -
[7]
ECCM is not supposed to make you immune to jamming. Its so the jammer has to focus more ecm on you and so not be able jam every single ship in your gang to uselessness.
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Get off the forums and go kill someone!
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omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:18:00 -
[8]
EVE IS PERFECT STFU
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AFK FAPPING
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:24:00 -
[9]
If ECM disabled high slots rather than breaking lock, the dynamic between ECM and ECCM would be unchanged. It would only prevent people from using it to be able to get away from most fights they find unfavorable.
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Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:25:00 -
[10]
I like flying my falcon, because it makes people mad.
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xplosiv
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:31:00 -
[11]
I like the idea that i jams a portion of the dammage and maybe other modules. I think it would be good to move the racials to jamming of weapon types. And then have multispectral jamm stuff like webs and warp scrams ect.
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Illwill Bill
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: AFK FAPPING If ECM disabled high slots rather than breaking lock, the dynamic between ECM and ECCM would be unchanged. It would only prevent people from using it to be able to get away from most fights they find unfavorable.
You are upset about missing killmails, yes?
I personally find ECM to be well balanced since the last time CCP was looking at it. It is no permanent win-button, and nor is it in anyway impossible to counter. Fit ECCM (or bring FoF-missiles), and you will be able to give Falcon pilots a nasty surprise. Sensor dampening ships also give Falcons and Scorpions a bad day.
If anything, the Griffin needs a boost, but that might be me not using it in it's intended role.
Additionally, it really infuriates me, when people use some pointless rant about signatures as a sig. |
AFK FAPPING
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:49:00 -
[13]
Edited by: AFK FAPPING on 30/05/2010 11:51:55 Edited by: AFK FAPPING on 30/05/2010 11:50:13
Originally by: Illwill Bill
Originally by: AFK FAPPING If ECM disabled high slots rather than breaking lock, the dynamic between ECM and ECCM would be unchanged. It would only prevent people from using it to be able to get away from most fights they find unfavorable.
You are upset about missing killmails, yes?
I personally find ECM to be well balanced since the last time CCP was looking at it. It is no permanent win-button, and nor is it in anyway impossible to counter. Fit ECCM (or bring FoF-missiles), and you will be able to give Falcon pilots a nasty surprise. Sensor dampening ships also give Falcons and Scorpions a bad day.
If anything, the Griffin needs a boost, but that might be me not using it in it's intended role.
Not upset, I've used ECM drones to get away many more times than others have used them on me. I do think that ECM could be better balanced against the other types of EWAR.
Fitting a ship is a gamble, and most people fit to be as effective against the largest number of ships as possible. Since running into ECM is a relatively small possibility in most cases, most do not fit ECCM. But when they do run into an ECM boat, it has a huge advantage over them.
Since a large portion of PVP is target location and selection, the ability to leave a fight if caught or if you make a decision that turns out bad is overpowering in my opinion.
To reiterate, I don't have a problem with how ECM reduces enemy combat potential, what I think could be reworked is how, in a solo or small fleet situation, it lets you get away or significantly minimize losses.
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.05.30 11:55:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 30/05/2010 11:55:46
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal things
Why ECM is not fine By Shade Millith and COMMON SENSE
1. It's counter is useless compared to other counters for EWAR. Tracking enhancers work in all situations, Sensor boosters work in all situations, cap boosters work in all situations, ECCM doesn't do **** other than 'help' you not get jammed
2. Dealing with ECM is far harder then dealing with any other EWAR. For fleets, fine, easy, you've got so many people already that anything primaried is going to vanish in a puff of smoke. For small gangs/solo work, you either bring more people (Blobing is good /sarcasm), or bring one or more ships that's specifically there to deal with ECM. And if you're working with 2-3 friends, crippling one of them to deal for a falcon, when none of the other EWAR requires this, is rediculous at best
3. Your own example
Chance to jam with 1 jammer: On-race 0.25016 (25%)
Every 20 seconds he has a 1 out of 4 chance to cause that ship (And said ship is using HALF of his midslots to combat a single game mechanic, that has no benifit whatsoever outside of said mechanic) to have no target lock for 20 seconds from a SINGLE jammer on a falcon. This isn't lowering his capablilties, it's full on removing them for an assured 20 seconds on a hit.
Yes, I do have a falcon, I used to fly one all the time, with recon 5 and very good ECM skills. It currently sits in station because just flying the thing reminds me of what a crappy mechanic ECM is ------------------------
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2010.05.30 12:10:00 -
[15]
No, it wouldn't be better. It would be pretty much useless.
ECM boats are always on top of the target list, if ECM didn't break locks it would mean that every ECM boat on the field would find itself scrammed webbed and dead the moment it appears on the field.
ECM drones on the other hand, they should just be removed all together.
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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
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Posted - 2010.05.30 12:19:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Shade Millith Yes, I do have a falcon, I used to fly one all the time, with recon 5 and very good ECM skills. It currently sits in station because with the Falcon changes it's a 150m ISK insta primary, with a chance based EWAR system, that might as well miss all it's cycles and turn it into an insta wreck, the moment it uncloaks.
Fixed that for you.
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Chunky Milk
Club Bear HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.05.30 12:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Chunky Milk on 30/05/2010 13:04:54 Edited by: Chunky Milk on 30/05/2010 13:02:12 Seems the biggest difference between people who see ecm as a problem and those who don't is between those that fly in large gangs/fleets and those that fly in small gang/solo. If you're fine with eve's direction of being all about how many people you can bring then ecm is fine. Otherwise compared to all the other e-war ECM is simply OP.
1: ECCM (its counter) only works a little to help against jams... Sensor Boosters or tracking enhancers, the counters to other forms of e-war, help your ship in general and in the case of sensor boostesr make damps near useless.
2: In small gang a falcon sitting 100-150km away isn't something easy to primary as the above poster says. Of course in large 0.0 sniping gangs this often isn't a problem.
3: At the very least change ecm drones so that their jam strength is racially based, hell someone suggested the other day to take a RP angle on it and have amarr jamming drones be based towards minmatar. Its just stupid when you have a bc near perma jamming another bc with light ECM drones....
4: If one of the goals for eve is fun pvp then why on earth would you have and/or argue for a module which simply stops you from pvping all together with absolutely nothing you can do.... fitting an eccm module does **** all when a single falcon sitting 100km Jams half your fleet and ruins the fun of pvp
edit: To the guy who's using an example of a geddon with 2xeccm. So you're saying that in this game if you want to avoid being jammed, seeing as a lot of people use ecm, by a ship you should always fit 2xeccm.... =/
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Merdaneth
Amarr Angel Wing.
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Posted - 2010.05.30 12:59:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Merdaneth on 30/05/2010 13:00:08
1. ECM is a decently balanced game mechanic 2. ECM is a no fun game mechanic
Point 2 is why ECM gets so much complaints. Most people attacking and defending talk about point 1, which is useless, because they should focus on point 2.
Want to know more about point 2, good thread to read here:
Electronic Warfare Psychology
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
voiddragon
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Posted - 2010.05.30 13:50:00 -
[19]
Edited by: voiddragon on 30/05/2010 13:54:38
Originally by: Shade Millith
Yes, because ECCM always helps doesn't it, not like it cripples your ship to have a decent chance (And only decent) to not get jammed by a ECM boat. And it's always so useful having a prober take an extra few seconds to find you, and that's if you've crippled your fit to be a shadow of what it was.
/sarcasm
The only way to deal with an ECM boat is to bring more people. But I guess the game's just getting that way.
Because you need those extra 2 med slots to kill an ECM ship...? An ECM ship sacrifices tank, speed and damage to provide his fleet with blob control.
Want to know a tactic that works for anti-ecm? Get an artillery tempest or similar ship, fit it with nothing but ECCM till you have a sensor strength above 100 then add whatever you want to the meds and you are now an anti-ewar ship. People generally think tempests are weak and don't primary them, ECM boats will try and jam you and may devote an entire rack to you without any results. You will scare him with your first volley, he will be reluctant to warp out hoping his next jam will stop him being destroyed. You will destroy him with your second volley if you didn't do so with your first. You are sacrificing speed and tackle to support your fleet against ECM (you may not even sacrifice speed unless you fit sebos for fast lock).
I'm sorry, but people are just idiots when they think every ship in their fleet must be fitted the exact same way to function. This is wrong. Fleets work best when configured to function as a whole, one ship like that would easily neutralise an ECM threat. Two of them would neutralise any if not all in a fleet fight of 20. Logistics already fit racks of ECCM and laugh as ECM struggle to jam them. A sniper ship ****s them and then laughs. And if I dare to quote something from a WoW player with risk of being flamed for it. Learn 2 play.
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Gil Danastre
Amarr Robur in Arma
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Posted - 2010.05.30 14:15:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Gil Danastre on 30/05/2010 14:17:44 As always, it's not that ECM is OP, its that all the other forms of EWAR suck in comparison. The main annoyance I have with ECM is that non-racial jammers still have a chance to jam a ship. a Radar jammer shouldn't be able to jam a Gravimetric sensor.
As for ECCM being terrible, I think a good compromise would be to give it a small scan resolution bonus, I mean you are increasing your sensor strength, wouldn't a faster lock time be a byproduct of that?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.05.30 14:28:00 -
[21]
There are two problems with the ECM/ECCM balance, and tbh, neither of them has anything to do with how effective the two are in relation to each other.
The first is the total disruption of ECM: it immediately and completely affects a vast array of systems and functions on the target ship, rather than just one or two of them like most other EWar. Neuts are the only thing that comes close, but even then, there's a multitude of offensive systems that still function and which can be used against the neuting ship.
The other is the side-effects of ECCM, or rather the lack of them. All other counter-ewar modules have secondary effects that benefits the ship they're fitted on even in every-day operation. There's a reason to fit them even if you have no intention of coming up against some kind of ewar:
Damps → sensor booster ù provide nice locking benefits when not damped. TDs → TC:s and TE:s ù gives your guns better hits when not tracking disrupted. TP → à ok, so there is no anti-TP module, but shhhh! Nos/Neut → Cap booster ù provides easy cap stability when not neuted/nossed. Webs → AB/MWD ù gives you a speed boost, webbed or not. Scrams → AB ù gives you a speed boost, scrammed or not. Disruptor → àdoesn't particularly need a counter, just fly out of range (so, MWD/AB again)
àcompared toà
ECM → ECCM ù provides fsck-all benefit unless you're ECM:ed (ok, it makes certain ships probe-proof, but that's not universally true and not enough reason for most ships to fit them). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Donny Maurasi
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Posted - 2010.05.30 15:55:00 -
[22]
The problem with ECM is the fact it's the only EW system that will shut down the ability of every system on your ship to do anything offensive to the target ship.
Added to this it has no meaningful counter measure for 90% of ships in the game as ECCM does not work well on most ships even if it's fitted. ECM being chance based allows it to even jam ships that fit ECCM's and have higher sensor strength than what the ECM ship is jamming with.
Don't even get me started on ECM drones because they are ridiculously over powered. At the very least the jam cycle speed should be nerfed a bit on ECM drones.
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Messoroz
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:01:00 -
[23]
*sigh* Sooner or later due to whiners we will all be in velators and armed with only a single electron blaster to make it all fair. Then someone will complain that its no fair that some can use the non civilian blasters and poof! We will all be in shuttles, completely fair then.
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Sendara Amarri
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Messoroz *sigh* Sooner or later due to whiners we will all be in velators and armed with only a single electron blaster to make it all fair. Then someone will complain that its no fair that some can use the non civilian blasters and poof! We will all be in shuttles, completely fair then.
Sure is slippery slope fallacy in here.
ECM needs a fix. OR, bring the other ewar types up to ECM's level.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:27:00 -
[25]
**** nerfing. CCP is so hell-bent on nerfing the stuff into which people sunk months worth of training time that long-term players are heavily penalized almost every year due to people whining about "overpowered" stuff.
Rather, I suggest that people find ways to counter good tactics or powerful capabilities used by their opponents.
In the case of ECM, counter with your own ECM boat. Or use damps to kill a ECM boat's targeting range. Or use ECM drones on both the hostile ECM boat and his friends. Or, yes, use overwhelming numbers so that a single ECM boat doesn't really matter.
No, I'm not a falcon / rook pilot, but I like them in my gangs as much as I dislike getting jammed by them in fights.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:50:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Trader20 on 30/05/2010 16:51:33
Interesting..... I think it's a great idea!!!!
ECM should jam the highslots (dps) but leave mids active. I agree with op's idea because even if you are jammed, you can still hold the ship that is jamming you down (point, web, etc). So when you recover, you can finish the fight instead of the ecm ship just warping away.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.05.30 16:53:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Shade Millith Yes, I do have a falcon, I used to fly one all the time, with recon 5 and very good ECM skills. It currently sits in station because with the Falcon changes it's a 150m ISK insta primary, with a chance based EWAR system, that might as well miss all it's cycles and turn it into an insta wreck, the moment it uncloaks.
Fixed that for you.
And it is primary because it is so freaking good.
With your logic we would give a random ship, lets pick the scythe, 3k dps with ACs. Now it will obviously be primary in every gang. Then you go to forums complaining it is always primary so should be boosted...
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.05.30 17:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Shade Millith on 30/05/2010 17:18:09
Originally by: Pohbis
Originally by: Shade Millith Yes, I do have a falcon, I used to fly one all the time, with recon 5 and very good ECM skills. It currently sits in station because with the Falcon changes it's a 150m ISK insta primary, with a chance based EWAR system, that might as well miss all it's cycles and turn it into an insta wreck, the moment it uncloaks.
Fixed that for you.
No
I have a particular hatred of ECM because I solo alot, and there's between "very little", and "nothing" a solo ship can do about a falcon aside from the standard "Bring more people" (Blob mentality anyone?), and whenever I used the thing, I'd be amazed about how overpowering the damn thing is against any soloer or small gang and it'd get thrown back into the hanger. ------------------------
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Night Epoch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2010.05.30 17:26:00 -
[29]
Everybody loves Falcons/Rooks until they're being jammed by them.
ECM is a great mechanic that adds texture to fights. Yes, it sucks being jammed by them, and Falcons / Rooks ARE great ships, but they have massive drawbacks too.
I fly a Rook all the time and can be guaranteed to be primaried immediately, forcing me to (1) drop my jams on whoever I was jamming (2) identify the pilot(s) disrupting/scramming me (3) jam them (4) warp off, removing my ship's assets from my teammates who are in battle (5) come back ...
OR (6) die immediately, because Falcons & Rooks are really squishy.
Don't nerf ECM CCP. It's an entirely balanced mechanic, and ECM tank breaking a disrupt, allowing a Falcon/Rook to escape, is as valid a mechanic as cloak.
Besides: given the months I spent maxing out my Falcon/Rook skills, I'd be ****ed if there were a nerf.
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.05.30 17:37:00 -
[30]
I don't really want a NERF of the ECM mechanic, but a change to what it does.
One thing I thought would work well (But would probably be a ***** to implement) is to scramble the targeting systems. The stronger the ECM, the more incorrect your infomation.
In a RR BS fleet. That blue domi 3km's away with the name Bob shows up as a red taranis 20km's off called Dave.
The higher the ECM strength, the more wacked out the info can be. Put in more ECCM and it lowers the level of inaccruacy. Would still be powerful, but not competely shut down anyship it decides to
But that's a bit of a farfetched dream. ------------------------
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