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Lycosa Rabida
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Posted - 2010.05.31 16:06:00 -
[1]
I'm asked to do this...
Issue with EvE skill training model: + Too rigid. There are only so much you can do to min/max your training speed. None of which would make you feel involved. + Too linear. Everything else considered equal, you shall never catch up to a currently titan pilot if you just joined in the year 2005 + Too slow. This is very objective. I have played korean games where they have 6 digits behind the comma on their "% to next level" counter but no one complain. Thus, I make the assumption that the "too slow" feeling is caused by the frustration of not being able to do anything to catch up, a combination of eve training being too rigid and linear.
This suggestion would solve all these issues at once, as well as open up many interesting endeavor:
Allow us to use plex to double training speed for a month (instead of extending subscription.) Applicable only if you are not one of the 10% characters with highest amount of sp and if you are not already receiving any kind of skill training bonus such as the new character bonus or an already existing plex bonus.
Why does it make skill training less rigid You now have an option, that isnt free to be active, to speed up training. The extra consideration of taking this option stack on and go along with other existing options to speed up training, making the whole process more flexible.
Why does it make skill training less linear Not everyone will and/or can tackle on this option thus your skill difference with your peers will no longer stay constant. Especially if you are one of the many people borderlining the 10% highest sp mark.
Will training feel less slow? Casual players wont feel a thing and most likely wont bother. Most harder core people will still take forever to get anything trained, but they will definitely train faster and make them a little more happy, I guess.
Bonus points: + Boost the PLEX market. More money to CCP. + Keep people logged in, many will have to log in twice as often "to play the game from time to time" now, cause of the increased training speed. + The snobs of 100m sp club will quickly find themseves not very exclusive + Encourage people to skill their char instead of buying from the bazaar. + CCP get to ban bots more frequently.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.05.31 16:12:00 -
[2]
if you want faster training buy implants. anything beyond that ... no go.
If you want to know why search through the similar thread in the features and ideas forum and the assembly hall forum. we dont have to discuss it again.
And yes ... you are useful in EVE long before 100m SP.
not supported.
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Mkah Mvet
Chumly Incorporated Beyond-Control
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Posted - 2010.05.31 16:25:00 -
[3]
Not supported for several reasons: it puts a $ value on your SP. people with more $ will have more SP it involves deliberately nerfing individual people SP isn't all that important. I have millions of SP I rarely ever use. It's nice to have when I need it, but it's rarely the deciding factor in any particular instance. it would remove the aspect of the game where you actually DO have control over your learning rates. that's what remaps, learning skills, and implants are for.
Is the current learning system fun? I wouldn't call it fun, no, but it does involve anticipation for unlocking new ships/mods/abilities which is about the only thing it has going for it, and which your proposal would break.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.05.31 16:33:00 -
[4]
If you want to pay isk for SP, you already can. Don't reinvent the wheel.
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CameI Jockey
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Posted - 2010.05.31 16:57:00 -
[5]
Not supported
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.31 17:01:00 -
[6]
FFS not this again.
No, just like every other time this damb fool idea has been proposed.
Your proposed exchange rate of 300M ISK for ~1.9M SP is laughably low. Why not just propose that the skill training rate be doubled, then at least it would be balanced. Because at the moment, your proposal runs foul of Malcanis' Law:
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed "for the new players" it is always to the overwhelming advantage of older, richer players.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.05.31 17:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lycosa Rabida
+ Too rigid. There are only so much you can do to min/max your training speed. None of which would make you feel involved. + Too linear. Everything else considered equal, you shall never catch up to a currently titan pilot if you just joined in the year 2005 + Too slow. This is very objective. I have played korean games where they have 6 digits behind the comma on their "% to next level" counter but no one complain. Thus, I make the assumption that the "too slow" feeling is caused by the frustration of not being able to do anything to catch up, a combination of eve training being too rigid and linear.
I'll reply to your points instead of just giving you the "lol GB2WOW" you deserve. 1. Too Rigid Try not to worry about min/maxing so much and try to actually enjoy playing the game instead. You might find you like it better that way.
2. Too linear. This is just flat wrong. You can catch up to any titan pilot in the game, in terms of actually effectively using a titan, because there are only so many skills that actually useful to that situation. Will you ever have as many total skill points? No - but in reality that doesn't matter, since in any given situation only a fixed number of those points will ever be of any use.
3. Too Slow This is not an objective argument, no matter how much you say it is. A feeling of "too slow" or "too fast" a subjective measure and has no business being in a logical argument.
tl;dr: No. Not only are your arguments just flat wrong, none of them are even new. All of them have been brought up before and shot down just as rapidly. --Vel
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Kaya Divine
Kittens Factory
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Posted - 2010.05.31 17:20:00 -
[8]
I think that this is great idea which will have my support. People who are against it are not able to comprehend why this is really great idea.
It offers players a choice. To make theirs own characters twice as fast, and while it will boost plex price, and will be great ISK drain, which will increase the value of ISK...it shouldn't be booed by fossil players who are scared that someone newer who are ready to spend more (to invest more) in this game will catch up with them. Whatever support for this idea will be...I believe that IF it is implemented that many, many players would use it and be happy with it.
Shoot your shot... |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.31 18:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kaya Divine
People who are against it are not able to comprehend why this is really great idea.
People who are for it are not able to comprehend why it is such a dreadful idea.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Lycosa Rabida
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Posted - 2010.05.31 18:38:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Lycosa Rabida on 31/05/2010 18:43:55 Edited by: Lycosa Rabida on 31/05/2010 18:39:02 Character limit killed much of the quotes. EDIT: Wow, I'm tempted to thumb up my own idea. Never noticed that tick.
Originally by: Mkah Mvet it puts a $ value on your SP.
If you dont pay, you cant play past trial. The more you pay, the more sp you can accumulate. $ already has obvious value in EvE.
Originally by: Mkah Mvet it involves deliberately nerfing individual people
who?
Originally by: Mkah Mvet SP isn't all that important. I have millions of SP I rarely ever use.
You are one of the casual players I have mentioned. Doesnt mean no one shouldnt have the choice because you dont use it.
Originally by: Mkah Mvet it would remove the aspect of the game where you actually DO have control over your learning rates.
Please first read my proposal. It stacks on those methods, just like playing one more month does. How's playing one more month hurt your control over your learning rate?
Originally by: Mkah Mvet Is the current learning system fun and stuff
This feature (double learning rate) is available to new characters. You are free to ask the newbs if they anticipate new unlocks.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto If you want to pay isk for SP, you already can. Don't reinvent the wheel.
Paying for the game is already paying for SP. Character bazaar, created later, thus is a reinvention of the wheel in your own logic. Maybe we should remove it.
Originally by: Malcanis No, just like every other time this damb fool idea has been proposed.
Where was it proposed before?
Originally by: Malcanis Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed "for the new players" it is always to the overwhelming advantage of older, richer players.
Originally by: Lycosa Rabida Applicable only if you are not one of the 10% characters with highest amount of sp
Lycosa Rabida's Law: 90% of the time, people read less then 10% of your post before replying.
Originally by: De'Veldrin Try not to worry about min/maxing so much and try to actually enjoy playing the game instead.
This is not an objective argument, no matter how much you say it is. Feeling of "fun" or "enjoyable" are subjective measures and has no business being in a logical argument.
Originally by: De'Veldrin Will you ever have as many total skill points? No - but in reality that doesn't matter, since in any given situation only a fixed number of those points will ever be of any use.
In all given situations, a titan pilot does not always fly a titan. Thus while it's possible for a new character to perfect titan piloting, he'd fail flat in any other situation not involving the titan comparing to the older titan pilot. It's like when an ambidextrous person and a right handed person both get the right arm chopped off then have a duel. I know who I'm going to bet for. In reality, more sp always give more options and that matter.
Originally by: De'Veldrin This is not an objective argument, no matter how much you say it is. A feeling of "too slow" or "too fast" a subjective measure and has no business being in a logical argument.
Try not to play on eve so much and try to save money for more logical, meaningful endeavors. You might see your pension sooner that way.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.05.31 18:48:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lycosa Rabida
Originally by: Malcanis No, just like every other time this damb fool idea has been proposed.
Where was it proposed before?
Roughly once every 10-15 days for the last 4 years some bright spark has come up with the idea that players should be allowed to buy SP. The posts have 3 things in common: They always seem to think they're the first, they always propose a incredibly low ISK price, and they are always by people who just can't understand why anyone would hate their wonderful idea.
Search out some examples for yourself. There are plenty.
And no, before you say it, the fact that quite a few people have posted the idea on these forums does not make it a good one.
To cut to the chase: your idea would allow rich, high-SP players to convert a small fraction of their wealth in to have an even greater SP advantage over the new players. Plus it would devalue the achievement of playing your character for long enough to have high SP, plus it would create the classic mudflation scenario where new players would have to spend $$$.
In short: enjoy your yearly stat respecs, cheap implants, initial training bonus and all the other nice things that new players get that older ones didn't. They are enough and more than enough.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.05.31 19:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lycosa Rabida
Originally by: De'Veldrin Will you ever have as many total skill points? No - but in reality that doesn't matter, since in any given situation only a fixed number of those points will ever be of any use.
In all given situations, a titan pilot does not always fly a titan. Thus while it's possible for a new character to perfect titan piloting, he'd fail flat in any other situation not involving the titan comparing to the older titan pilot. It's like when an ambidextrous person and a right handed person both get the right arm chopped off then have a duel. I know who I'm going to bet for. In reality, more sp always give more options and that matter.
Actually more SP does not always give more options, and that's why your argument falls flat on its face.
Unfortunately, based on your other replies, you're obviously not here for reasoned discussion on the topic, so I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain why.
--Vel
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mkmin
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Posted - 2010.05.31 19:11:00 -
[13]
on the other hand, a bunch of noobs flying ships they don't know how to fly and can't afford to lose would mean a major buff to LP values and mineral values...
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Taxesarebad
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Posted - 2010.05.31 19:59:00 -
[14]
been proposed before. it will never happen. the only thing that should be added is bonus XP to doing things, such as mining, but even then it would not increase training speed by much. you should not be able to fly a titan in less than a year like this idea would alow
-------------SIGZONE-------------- Remove Shadow.... ;) |
Casiella Truza
Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.05.31 20:51:00 -
[15]
Oppose. This offers no actual reason and does not reward strategic patience.
This doesn't belong in my EVE.
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Daemonspirit
Redhawk Tribal Trust
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Posted - 2010.05.31 21:53:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Daemonspirit on 31/05/2010 21:55:43 Wallet size shouldn't = Training bonus.
NOT SUPPORTED!
Originally by: Lycosa Rabida + Too linear. Everything else considered equal, you shall never catch up to a currently titan pilot if you just joined in the year 2005
Sure you can, there is a finite skillset to pilot a Titan. Once you have that at V's - you've caught up...
Sounds like "you want it now..."
GOD I hope they never do this... ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.06.01 01:31:00 -
[17]
First, the EVE skill training model is not too rigid. You are not limited to one character - you can get other accounts and train skills twice as fast for as long as both accounts are subscribed. Two 10M SP characters are more powerful than one 20M SP character, simply because you can bring more modules into action in any fight (or have twice as many production/research slots, or control twice as many POS guns, or have your own covert ops scout, etc).
Second, the easy way to "catch up" with a veteran player is to buy their character. Veterans are now at the point where they're flying a Titan and are now training up to fly every other race's titan, be marketing moguls, anything to keep that SP counter running. You'll catch up with them because they're standing still.
Third, "too slow" is subjective. Your measure of "too slow" is based on other people's opinions about other games. So you're taking other people's opinions about other games, and interpreting that to somehow reflect on EVE Online - how is that not subjective?
Now if you were to raise the suggestion that the 100% learning boost should be increased by another 2M SP every year, I'd support that. Most characters will build around 10M SP a year. Between three characters on one account, that gives you "free" SP slightly less than a single character will have trained in the meantime. You can keep cycling your training to the boosted character and still not disadvantage those people who are focussed on training one character.
[Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Quacka
Minmatar Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.01 03:07:00 -
[18]
Op lost. Now lets let this thread die.
Do not support.
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari Original Sin.
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Posted - 2010.06.01 03:50:00 -
[19]
No, no, no, no, no, no.
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Srialia
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2010.06.01 09:22:00 -
[20]
Aw yeah, the rich get richer!
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.01 10:40:00 -
[21]
Crappy idea.
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Gavjack Bunk
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Posted - 2010.06.01 10:47:00 -
[22]
Anybody would think that the SP gain rate was deciding upon by a carefully considered consensus of bitter old veterans.
To determine if an idea is bad or not, look at the whiners.
If the whiners are generally unknown, it's probably a bad idea. If the whiners are known, regular bitter old veterans, the chances are it's a great idea that definetly cuts off their comfortable isk or advantage supply.
Since I don't care for character trading, this system would be ALL GOOD NEWS.
You see, people say Eve Expansions are FREE. They're not. They are paid for expansions.
You pay with $ Look at Skill Requirements for anything. Super Capitals perhaps. Those requirements are the COST of that expansion in Eve. Instead of "SP" being the requirement, you can easily substitute $ instead, therefore you can easily subsitute ISK instead.
Ooops. Bitter Old Veteran agenda discovered. Infinite ISK Veterans don't like people converting Dollars into SP, they should be converting dollars into ISK from Infinite ISK veterans, then buying characters from infinite isk veterans thus giving them the ISK right back.
Anything that the bitter old veterans come out and take the time to whine about is almost certainly a very good idea, otherwise they'd be ignoring you by now.
The SP gain rate was chosen to reflect how much CCP charge for expanded game content. CCP want $, people want content. They'll find a way to come together. CCP didn't make the SP gain rate variable for no reason.
Supporting anything bitter old veterans cry about, because it can only be good for the rest of us.
This is CSM thread anyway, anything that occurs here has no value or consequence. Pointless in all senses.
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Shardivh
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Posted - 2010.06.01 12:15:00 -
[23]
Read the devblog on isk buying and it will explain why this is a bad idea. Eve is a universe where your real life income doesn't matter. Anyone of any financial background can enjoy a fair playing field (as long as they pay the subs.)
Thoroughly not supported. No microtransactions in eve. PLEX selling is already enough.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.01 12:38:00 -
[24]
You can buy SP's for RL money.
Buy Plex's sell for ISK then buy a Character.
Just saying even though I'm a very bitter vet!
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2010.06.01 13:27:00 -
[25]
no, this is stupid. skillpoints should not be decided by who has the biggest wallet.
One is perfectly viable in combat after 2 weeks and capable of killing tens of thousands of other players. My third account made 17 SOLO kills on DAY ONE of the account... yeah new players are not viable at all until many months later.... --signature-- Support the Field Command ship boost: Here |
stadshage
Caldari Trojan Trolls Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.06.01 22:24:00 -
[26]
no no no no no no no and no
if you don't like the way skill training is in eve go play ...
huh |
Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.01 22:55:00 -
[27]
Nah; bad idea. Not supported. Skill-speed itself, beyond training and implants, should not be on the market.
Besides, as has been said, if you want to buy SP, just get a whole character at the char bazaar. --
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.02 09:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gavjack Bunk
If the whiners are generally unknown, it's probably a bad idea. If the whiners are known, regular bitter old veterans, the chances are it's a great idea that definetly cuts off their comfortable isk or advantage supply.
This would cause the richer and older players to get FURTHER "ahead". Or at the VERY least remain "ahead"
A 10 mil SP player with 300 mil to his name, gets double learning but is left broke, and has to do it all again.
A 50 mil SP player with 3 bil to his name, gets double learning and is left with 2.7 bil, and can do so again next month without worry.
I've only got 30 mil SP, and I say not supported ------------------------
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2010.06.02 09:45:00 -
[29]
Great respect to anyone still politely trying to explain to the next horrible "idea" author.
I think "I want PWN the game in 3 months and feel cool, but they don't let me" people will never change. Some things just can't be cured.
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Gavjack Bunk
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Posted - 2010.06.02 10:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shade Millith A 10 mil SP player with 300 mil to his name, gets double learning but is left broke, and has to do it all again.
A 50 mil SP player with 3 bil to his name, gets double learning and is left with 2.7 bil, and can do so again next month without worry.
I've only got 30 mil SP, and I say not supported
derp. A bitter old vet needs +month to gain 5% to something. A newbie needs +day to gain 5% to something. Keep trying. If you like, look up who was whining everytime anybody proposed neural remapping, and see if it's the exact same people with the exact same arguments who were wrong before, and wrong now.
Better still. Let the wookie win.
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