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ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.03 07:43:00 -
[1]
It has been a long, long time since I last saw frigates being used as combat assets, their usefulness has waned ever more with the continuing introduction of larger ships. While all but the most advanced frigates have been relegated to shuttle and scout duties.
This brings up the question, why have frigates become this way? What problems lie within the very foundation of the ship class itself? And what can we do to fix it?
Its not just assault frigates, rocket-based frigates, or any other sub-class that have these issues, all frigates are affected. And though some may work around the base problems with the class with mwds and cloaks, the rest have to suffer from these issues and are left unattended and unused.
So what are these issues you may ask?
The first, most glaring problem is short range weapons and closing distance, frigates have extremely short range weapons, that while excellent for their size, force them to come into very close range of larger ships. Once in range they can perform their roles correctly, but getting into that range is a gauntlet in and of itself.
You would think that frigates would need to worry about enemy destroyers, or anti-frigate platforms would cause the most issue, but then you would be wrong. While closing the range gap frigates are left completely exposed to the high-caliber weapons of larger vessels.
Frigates due to their small size, and relatively high-speed, have the ability to avoid the fire of these guns, but only once they enter their own, short attack range. While some frigates can utilize microwarpdrives to close the range faster, leaving them exposed for far less time, and others can use cloaking devices to get them in close, most frigates do not have these abilities.
The problem isn't one with the frigate design, however. And retrofitting most frigates to use these countermeasures usually leaves them unable to perform thier intended roles.
Even if frigates do manage to pass the barrage of high-caliber weapons fire, and get within attack range, they will learn that their problems have just begun. Enemy ships have a vast array of weapons systems and devices, that can leave the frigate harmless at best, or leave the frigate a heap of scrap, with the pilot scurrying to safety in their escape capsule.
Energy neutralizers can easily and absolutely shut down a frigate, leaving the ship without power. This means that the frigate may not be able to tank, or have the use of thier weapons systems. Leaving them useless without damage, or offensive systems, and vulnerable with thier small base hp and no tank.
Energy neutralizers are not the only close in countermeasure larger ships have to use against frigates. Frigates can also encounter stasis webifiers, which will slow the ship to a crawl, giving large-caliber guns ample time to aim, fire and in most cases instapop the aggressing frigate.
A smartbomb may also be employed to dispatch frigates, the smartbomb usually covers the close-in area a frigate needs to perform his role correctly. Avoiding the smartbomb in many cases will force the frigate out farther from his potential target, again exposing him to the fire of the targets large-caliber guns.
Another common countermeasure against frigates is the use of light drones. These drones can usually outmaneuver frigates, and even avoid fire or tank a frigates weapons. Frigates can try to counter these and shoot them down, but they will find that the drones can leave just as fast as they came, coming and going from the safety of the parent vessel. And even if a frigate can manage to get ahold of one long enough to shoot and kill it, few can withstand the damage from the drones, and are forced to flee or die nonetheless. |
ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.03 07:43:00 -
[2]
Edited by: ghosttr on 03/06/2010 07:43:16 Reserved Whats wrong with frigates? |
ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.03 07:44:00 -
[3]
Reserved Whats wrong with frigates? |
Belloch
Independent Coalition Primary.
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Posted - 2010.06.03 11:21:00 -
[4]
The problem with frigates is that when piloting one I am unable to change any of the font sizes of any of my UI elements.
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Cyan Cure
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Posted - 2010.06.03 11:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: ghosttr It has been a long, long time since I last saw frigates being used as combat assets, their usefulness has waned ever more with the continuing introduction of larger ships. While all but the most advanced frigates have been relegated to shuttle and scout duties.
This brings up the question, why have frigates become this way? What problems lie within the very foundation of the ship class itself? And what can we do to fix it?
This statement is completely wrong, so it's not worth to keep reading this. I don't know which game you're playing, but it's not EVE. You don't know what you're talking about.
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Illrean
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Posted - 2010.06.03 14:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Cyan Cure
Originally by: ghosttr It has been a long, long time since I last saw frigates being used as combat assets, their usefulness has waned ever more with the continuing introduction of larger ships. While all but the most advanced frigates have been relegated to shuttle and scout duties.
This brings up the question, why have frigates become this way? What problems lie within the very foundation of the ship class itself? And what can we do to fix it?
This statement is completely wrong, so it's not worth to keep reading this. I don't know which game you're playing, but it's not EVE. You don't know what you're talking about.
I'm not seeing any supporting evidence from you as to how he is wrong. Perhaps you can offer some actual counter arguments instead of just saying "you're doing it wrong!"
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Borgh Brainbasher
Noir.
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Posted - 2010.06.03 15:52:00 -
[7]
I think you are looking at the wrong bits of the game.
Yes, if you come flying to a POS bashing CTA in a frigate you will be told to gtfo and get a real ship.
but in small gangs frigates are still alive and kicking. This varies between two opposites: the regular rifter-with-scram-and-mwd who are charging in, holding tackle for a second and then exploding in a ball of fire. This is fine as they are quite cheap enough for nobody minding the fact that they die fast. On the other end you have ships like ishkur and wolf. They do insane dps (for a small-gun based vessel at least) and have enough staying power to hold out agains that "barrage of high calliber fire"
So I think its not that something is wrong with frigates, I just thing you really need to atch how you use them. If they are used correctly they are great, if they are not you die in a very expensive ball of flames. --- Warning: You are on the pvp only server. |
Killer Gandry
Caldari TerraNovae
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Posted - 2010.06.03 16:45:00 -
[8]
Frigates have more than enough uses. And then I don't mean the T2 varieties.
I will list a few, just to give a rough idea.
# PvP trainingship. Be it in Corp or just head out to low sec.
# Expendable scoutship in WH's
# Expendable scoutship in low / null sec
# In a descent group they can form quit a challenging pack for any cruiser or even a BS.
Why do I put expendable in 2 instances? Simple. You don't have to have mad skills to be able to assist. Just be ready to do your role, even if it means dying.
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TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.03 17:29:00 -
[9]
IMO the only thing wrong with frigates is that it is time to remove the tiers and boost all frigates to the level of the tier 3 versions (rifter etc).
Addressing your specific issues, if you charge directly at a battleship then yes, you will have no traversal and die horribly to their guns. This is why good frigate pilots use their speed advantage to spiral into range.
Yes heavy neuts can cap out a frigate in one cycle, but their cycle time is 24 seconds whilst a small nos has a 3 second cycle time, a good tackler will be watching for neuts and will time their warp scram, ab etc carefully.
Smartbombs will kill frigates very quickly which is why (in a fleet) you ship scan the targets before getting closer than ~6km.
Drones hurt, which is why rather than shoot the battleship you first pop their light drones.
A well fitted rifter (for example) can kill T2 frigs and cruisers fairly reliably or tackle battleships for long enough for something heavier to take over the tackle (and still get out alive in most cases).
The fun thing is that whilst Frigates are the least skill intensive to get into initially it is also one of the classes that really rewards good piloting.
TeaDaze.net |
Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.06.03 21:39:00 -
[10]
Frigates allow several advantages over other ship classes, not least of which is the ability to roam hostile null sec solo or in small gangs. They are fast, not just km/s fast but they allow quick travel for skirmish warfare.
They are invaluable for tackling, while a Lachesis can be used very well in organised insta-locking camps, they aren't nearly as expendable and lack the sig tanking for locking down larger classes.
A key advantage is they are often underestimated and can be used to lull a target into a false sense of security. This can be seen in your post where your experience suggests they are useless.
I'm hardly good at pvp but have been soloing in frigs for some time now and have had plenty of successes in frigates. You can look at tactics of many players in some of the best PVP corps out there and you will see plenty of frigates used. A lot of the more dedicated and successful pvpers out there also solo in frigates. It's not just a cost consideration, they can be truly rewarding to fly. One mistake made early and you are unlikely to recover. You could argue this to be a disadvantage but for people that actually enjoy a challenge, it's rewarding.
I do agree with TeaDaze that they could look at updating the tier system as really there are some ships crying out for a redesign.
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Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
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Posted - 2010.06.03 23:14:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/06/2010 23:17:37 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/06/2010 23:15:32 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/06/2010 23:15:21 Nothing is wrong with frigates, except AFs are a bit suck.
T1 frigates are fine at what they do, stealth bombers absolutely rock and are awesome, EAFs are so/so (well, Hyena/Keres are bad), Interceptors are fine and perform as advertised (MWD/tackle), covert ops are awesome/the swiss knife of EVE.
The vast majority of frigates work just fine.
What you are referring specifically to is "my closerange AF with AB is cannon fodder and cannot close range", which is interesting because you don't fit it with the module designed for enabling you to close range (MWD) and you're having unrealistic expectations from it (it being a solopwnmobile), and handily ignoring the fact all shortrange ships are at a disadvantage vs longrange ships if fight starts sufficiently far away.
After QR changes and SB changes, frigate hulls are really quite good. AFs are lacking; they're ridden with inter-class issues and with a lack of overall role. They need ship specific fixing and/or rethinking their role.
Also, the tier system and bad design of many frigates makes the Rifter the only one which is good, and that bit does need a fix (as it does when it comes to cruisers where the tier system shows it ugly head again).
Originally by: Illrean
I'm not seeing any supporting evidence from you as to how he is wrong. Perhaps you can offer some actual counter arguments instead of just saying "you're doing it wrong!"
A cursory roam with spamming d-scan reveals that there's no lack of frigates being flown? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.06.04 02:03:00 -
[12]
Why do people keep saying the Rifter is the only good T1 frig?
After flying it for a while (about a month on my old character), and comparing it with my current Amarr frigs, I find I kill things in my current frigs before they even get within weapon range, which I couldn't do well on the Rifter.
Maybe its just me...
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Killer Gandry
Caldari TerraNovae
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Posted - 2010.06.04 03:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Corina Jarr
Maybe its just me...
Yup.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.04 04:30:00 -
[14]
What's wrong with frigates? Well obviously, they cost too much.
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.06.04 20:43:00 -
[15]
rifter isnt the only good frig. merlin, punisher are 2 very good frigs and in a frig fight they have very good chance to down a rifter with equal skills. kestrel and incursus ar OKish too
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Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.04 23:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cyan Cure
Originally by: ghosttr It has been a long, long time since I last saw frigates being used as combat assets, their usefulness has waned ever more with the continuing introduction of larger ships. While all but the most advanced frigates have been relegated to shuttle and scout duties.
This brings up the question, why have frigates become this way? What problems lie within the very foundation of the ship class itself? And what can we do to fix it?
This statement is completely wrong, so it's not worth to keep reading this. I don't know which game you're playing, but it's not EVE. You don't know what you're talking about.
--- Sup~ |
Draku Rykenen
Gallente The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.05 04:30:00 -
[17]
I love frigs personally. I'd rather fly a frig that anything else. However they do ultimately lack staying power. Any set up can be countered by cruiser class ships while still maintaining an effective combat capability verses other ship types. Frigs can only really be made more effective by nerfing tracking on medium+ guns I think, which would have a domino effect on the entire combat arena.
I think frigs are destined to remain high risk role players, which is probably how they were designed anyhow. So while I would love to have more survivability in my frigs, I don't think it's in the cards.
One thing I can think of though would be to include sig radius when a frig is sitting still or approaching straight on. I have read that insta popping frigs with larger guns works so well because sig radius is not accounted for when a GUN fires on a frig in these situations. That sound right?
Frig pilots are the fearless warriors, gallantly charging headlong towards a likely oblivion in service of their fellow soldiers. It's kinda neat that way really!
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Ryhss
Caldari Victory Fleet Systems C.H.A.L.I.C.E.
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Posted - 2010.06.06 03:29:00 -
[18]
My Hookbill hits from 51km away. It's a frigate.
Originally by: Abrazzar I don't know what's going on but I am terribly upset about it.
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The'Best Hellfury
Incura
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Posted - 2010.06.10 09:18:00 -
[19]
Sounds like you're an incredibly terrible frigate pilot tbh.
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Dalgarrz
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Posted - 2010.06.14 05:37:00 -
[20]
What is wrong with frigates is that the bridge doesn't come with a pre-installed beer fridge and a pole for the exotic dancers. :D
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albert camus
Assisted Genocide
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Posted - 2010.06.14 10:12:00 -
[21]
Clone costs, i cant fly frigs as my clone costs 30 mill or somethign stupid :(
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Elu Arina
Minmatar The Flying Tigers
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Posted - 2010.06.14 23:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: albert camus Clone costs, i cant fly frigs as my clone costs 30 mill or somethign stupid :(
This is probably the only good argument against frigs in the whole thread. Frigates are not cost effective for combat when you take into account the cost of replacing a lost clone on a high SP toon.
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Lubomir Penev
interimo
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Posted - 2010.06.20 19:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: ghosttr It has been a long, long time since I last saw frigates being used as combat assets,
You couldn't have lost all credibility in much less words. GJ -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.06.23 09:10:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 23/06/2010 09:10:00
Originally by: albert camus Clone costs, i cant fly frigs as my clone costs 30 mill or somethign stupid :(
That's not an argument against frigs per se, more an argument against podding/risky PvP in general. I could say the same about 500 million implants.
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seany1212
Stylo Corporation
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Posted - 2010.06.26 16:46:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 23/06/2010 09:10:00
Originally by: albert camus Clone costs, i cant fly frigs as my clone costs 30 mill or somethign stupid :(
That's not an argument against frigs per se, more an argument against podding/risky PvP in general. I could say the same about 500 million implants.
Agreed, plus if you've got that many skillpoints you should be more than experienced to get your pod out in low sec (with the exception of lag) when losing your frigate, 0.0 i can understand especially with a bubble.
You guys make squeeky noises when you pop, and that's enough motivation as far as I'm concerned. |
Dograzor
The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.06.26 23:53:00 -
[26]
There are alot of people who don't know how to use frigates properly, and don't even bother looking at frigs. It is somewhat the current mindset of a lot of starting eve player to get into "bigger" ships as fast as possible, and they will usually neglect the frigate class after a week or two & hop into a cruiser.
This mindset still exists with alot seasoned eve players, who will stick to bigger ships because they are more shiney/have more dps etc. Before I started my life of piracy, I never really bothered about frigs since I was using cruisers & BC sized ships for whatever I needed doing, and I never even bothered looking into frigates as a pvp ship. Once I joined a pirate corp, I soon discovered that a well (manually) piloted & fitted frig can take on quite alot of things, and in a larger group they can kill alot of things, up to lone BS's etc.
I love my AC punisher, and I suggest that the OP should try some more frig pvp, since it is very fun, and a cheap way of pvp'ing. And I can also ensure the OP that frigates are absolutely not useless or on the verge of extinction, and I really do not need to see anything changed to them. And even that, I consider most of your arguments to be quite.. invalid.
For one - Big guns vs. frigate - Learn to fly manually. Dont go straight at a BS, or any ship. Ever. You have the speed advantage in a frig, use it, and get under his guns.
Energy nuets - Fly AC fit frigs. Either AC punisher or rifter. Autocannons do not use cap, and you can dedicate your cap to your AB or rep. If timed correctly you can keep them running without issue.
Drones - Thats gotta be a joke. Unless its ECM drones. The one of the first things you ever learn when pvp'ing is to have one overview tab dedicated to drones, & drones die fast once you shoot them. Keep orbiting your enemy, shoot his drones, and then kill him. If he uses ECM drones against you & is able to get jam cycles on you, you'll be screwed usually, no matter what size ship you fly.
So mr OP, I suggest, please, rediscover the awesome ship class called a frigate.
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"We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value" |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar Tides Of War
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Posted - 2010.06.28 05:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: TeaDaze IMO the only thing wrong with frigates is that it is time to remove the tiers and boost all frigates to the level of the tier 3 versions (rifter etc).
I think even the tier three frigates need to be easier to fit.
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AtheistOfFail
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Posted - 2010.07.03 09:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 03/07/2010 09:16:38 Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 03/07/2010 09:16:16 Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 03/07/2010 09:15:37 Uhhh... frigs not being used for combat?
http://wialliance.killmail.org/?a=home <- t3 kill with frigates only.
Just look at the number one most expensive kill.
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