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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment Blade.
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Posted - 2010.06.05 22:53:00 -
[1]
From a purely economic perspective, the only perspective I have, they are a very productive labour force that drives the prices of minerals down. I absolutely love that. Makes my life easier. And while miners will make less profit because of the macrominers, they also need less isk to buy things, so there's no loss.
Really, why all the hate with the macroers?
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Messoroz
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Posted - 2010.06.05 22:58:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Messoroz on 05/06/2010 22:58:17 Some of those macroers are big time isk farming ops with a intention to sell the isk for real $$
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:03:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Messoroz Edited by: Messoroz on 05/06/2010 22:58:17 Some of those macroers are big time isk farming ops with a intention to sell the isk for real $$
Time to play devils advocate:
So what? CCP already facilitates isk selling and buying.
If they do it then it cant be THAT bad.
Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
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Asestorian
The Debonair
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:03:00 -
[4]
The issue with macros is less to do with their direct economic effect, and more to do with common links between macroers and those who hack and steal credit card details for the sole purpose of selling ISK in EVE. Besides, people will always have an issue with illegitimate players when they themselves do what they can to play legitmately. There's a general sense of unfairness and wrongness.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:08:00 -
[5]
not to mention that it violates the EULA, and in addition it devalues effort put in by regular players who play as the game was intended, who cannot hope to compete with sweatshop ops and automated cheating.
This makes the effort vs reward margin of some key EVE professions unattractive, which in turn drives players away.
Questions?
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Dred 'Morte
New European Regiment Blade.
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:14:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/06/2010 23:15:22
Originally by: Helicity Boson not to mention that it violates the EULA, and in addition it devalues effort put in by regular players who play as the game was intended, who cannot hope to compete with sweatshop ops and automated cheating.
This makes the effort vs reward margin of some key EVE professions unattractive, which in turn drives players away.
Questions?
Everything you just said is wrong. Go read economics.
All they do is increase supply and therefore drive the prices down. However, because they drive down the prices of RAW materials, they in fact drive down the prices of all CONSUMER PRODUCTS. No one loses anything. No one is driven out of business. No one.
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Ka choop
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:24:00 -
[7]
It's like sports.
Some athletes have more talent some athletes train harder. Some athletes have a better trainer and some better facilities. All those factors can help get them to the top of their game. All those thing are widely accepted as "fair".
What we don't accept though is doping. Athletes who use doping are suspended.
Macroers use electronic doping to be better at Eve then other people who follow the rules. That's why there's the big hate. They pretend to be successful while not playing the game themselves even. The computer plays the game for them.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Reckoning.
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:29:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 05/06/2010 23:31:59
Quote:
So what? CCP already facilitates isk selling and buying.
No they don't. It's pretty well established that two players trading gametime for ISK is different than ISK farming operations selling ISK in bulk quantities. One is controlled by the market (GTC buyers will always stay in a reasonable proportion to GTC sellers), the other is not (ISK sellers can sell as much ISK as they can farm). One has real value (a PLAYER has to earn that money ingame to buy a PLEX), one has virtually no value (isk seller has to leave a macro program running for awhile to earn that money).
Quote: However, because they drive down the prices of RAW materials, they in fact drive down the prices of all CONSUMER PRODUCTS. No one loses anything. No one is driven out of business. No one.
No they don't. There are a whole host of things that go into making stuff other than veldspar. For t2 ships there's a ****load of various things, and even basic T1 has the cost of the blueprint + the cost of the manufacturer's time. And if you take the position that macrominers disproportionately mine one type of mineral (The proportion of 0.0 macrominers to empire macrominers is probably pretty low), then that further cuts into their income.
A grasp of basic economics means nothing without common sense.
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Arkarn
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
So what? CCP already facilitates isk selling and buying.
PLEX Method:
Player A buys GTC. This gives CCP money Player B buys PLEX off player A. This Gives player A ISK Player B uses PLEX, gets 30 days
Both players and CCP win.
ISK Seller method:
ISK Seller sells ISK. This gives them all the money and none to CCP Player gets ISK in a risky way and helps to not give CCP the money they deserve
Aka PLEX > ISK Sellers because everyone wins.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.06.05 23:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/06/2010 23:17:05 Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/06/2010 23:15:22
Originally by: Helicity Boson not to mention that it violates the EULA, and in addition it devalues effort put in by regular players who play as the game was intended, who cannot hope to compete with sweatshop ops and automated cheating.
This makes the effort vs reward margin of some key EVE professions unattractive, which in turn drives players away.
Questions?
Everything you just said is wrong. Go read economics.
All they do is increase supply and therefore drive the prices down. However, because they drive down the prices of RAW materials, they in fact drive down the prices of all CONSUMER PRODUCTS. No one loses anything. No one is driven out of business. No one.
I also find the unfair argument weak. I may think it's unfair that some guys got tech 2 BPOs. I may think it's unfair that pilot trained for flavor of the semester. I may think it's unfair that my buddy can play with multiple accounts for great advantage. In the end, none cares of what I think.
What you think is actually wrong. EVE economy is actually very different from real economy. Very few parallels can be drawn between the two. Isk is not money in the modern sense, but rather another type of commodity, functioning in a bartering system. There is no arbitrary limit or currency regulation. It's a commodity created through labor of mission runners/ratters, bartered for other commodities created by other professions, and expended through variety of npc sinks. Just like other commodities, such as mining minerals, created from an infinite source through labor, circulated, and eventually expended (destruction, ammo expenditure, etc). Mass production of specific commodities within the barter system causes imbalance. It becomes a problem when something is created so much faster than they can be expended over time. The sink has to be on par with the faucet.
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Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
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Posted - 2010.06.06 00:05:00 -
[11]
This coming from a guy with an alliance that has shady links to isk farmers and sellers.
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Hainnz
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2010.06.06 00:05:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/06/2010 23:17:05 Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/06/2010 23:15:22
Everything you just said is wrong. Go read economics.
You edited your post twice and yet still failed so hard...
Read more economics yourself, and try understanding what you read this time.
Originally by: Dred 'Morte All they do is increase supply and therefore drive the prices down. However, because they drive down the prices of RAW materials, they in fact drive down the prices of all CONSUMER PRODUCTS. No one loses anything. No one is driven out of business. No one.
Except the legitimate miner who is playing the game in an EULA-compliant manner.
I'll grant you that just about everyone else (manufacturers, haulers, mission-runners, plexers, ratters, pvpers, et al) does indirectly benefit from cheaper minerals. But not the (legitimate) miners.
Even small scale macro-miners hurt honest miners. How is a real miner's time and effort not devalued by some guy logging in to his macro-mining hulk alt before he goes to sleep/work?
Originally by: Dred 'Morte I also find the unfair argument weak. [snip]
All games (including this one) have a set of agreed upon rules. Everyone agrees to CCP's rules (the EULA) before they play this game. If someone circumvents these rules, then they are playing unfairly. How is that difficult to understand?
Originally by: Dred 'Morte In the end, none cares of what I think.
Ok, I can agree with that. |
Nika Dekaia
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Posted - 2010.06.06 00:09:00 -
[13]
ITT: flamebaittroll OP
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.06.06 00:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Zartrader on 06/06/2010 00:34:36
It's cheating, which is enough for me. But to add:
1. It encourages real crime with hacking and identity theft.
2. It removes real money from CCP and therefore decreases the amount that can be spent on the game.
3. It uses a disproportionate amount of server resources which we all suffer from.
4. It sets artificial prices which also lead to a screwed economy, nerfs for the rest of us (T0 loot) and CCP needing to change game balance which further distort the economy.
5. They push out actual players who play the game in regions they operate in. They further stop people playing the game legitimately when their game profession becomes useless (miners)
6. They spam forums and post hack links.
7. If people are willing to cheat to get on in a game they have no respect for themselves, the game or other players. I don't want to be on the same sever as them.
8. The low price is a delusion and does not benefit the game as a whole which is all that matters. Pricing in EVE is relative pricing. One persons loss is another's gain. If Trit doubled tomorrow it would simply lead to inflation which would benefit miners and leave mission runners not needing further nerfs in an attempt to balance the game.
So, in short, they are s****without one good thing about them.
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Ka choop
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Posted - 2010.06.06 00:31:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ka choop on 06/06/2010 00:31:43 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIJmVA_NlO0
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.06.06 00:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Arkarn
Originally by: Sader Rykane
So what? CCP already facilitates isk selling and buying.
PLEX Method:
Player A buys GTC. This gives CCP money Player B buys PLEX off player A. This Gives player A ISK Player B uses PLEX, gets 30 days
Both players and CCP win.
ISK Seller method:
ISK Seller sells ISK. This gives them all the money and none to CCP Player gets ISK in a risky way and helps to not give CCP the money they deserve
Aka PLEX > ISK Sellers because everyone wins.
Don't forget the part where they phish your password, log on to your account, and steal everything you have to sell to the next *******. Or was that all covered under the term "ISK in a risky way"?
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Ka choop
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Posted - 2010.06.06 00:46:00 -
[17]
The moment there's real money involved in buying ISK you get crime. Eve gets chargebacks because stolen creditcards were used to make accounts, legitimate players get their accounts hacked and it becomes it real strain on Eve customer support to fix all these things, which also costs a lot of money.
Eve doesn't benefit in any way of RMT.
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Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
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Posted - 2010.06.06 01:44:00 -
[18]
we have macros because ccp makes mining so horrible that it s not fun in the slightest to do and very easy to macro. if they simply made mining more like a game then people would be less inclined to do it and it would be harder to macro.
ccp only cares about money at this point
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Andrea Skye
Caldari The Python Cartel. The Jerk Cartel
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Posted - 2010.06.06 02:13:00 -
[19]
Its cheating. Why play any game if your going to cheat.
I dont give a balls about mineral prices, or wether or not they sell the isk for real money. I just dont like people who cheat at games.
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dexington
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Posted - 2010.06.06 02:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Andrea Skye Its cheating. Why play any game if your going to cheat.
You are allowed to scam and cheat people, it's just part of the sandbox... but if someone uses automatized scripting to mine he is worse then ******?
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Lady Aja
Caldari IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.06 02:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte From a purely economic perspective, the only perspective I have, they are a very productive labour force that drives the prices of minerals down. I absolutely love that. Makes my life easier. And while miners will make less profit because of the macrominers, they also need less isk to buy things, so there's no loss.
Really, why all the hate with the macroers?
this is funny commming from blade. who has thier own isk farmers.
its why i tell all great sage guys NOT to rat in delve.
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Lady Aja
Caldari IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.06 02:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dred 'Morte Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/06/2010 23:17:05 Edited by: Dred ''Morte on 05/06/2010 23:15:22
Originally by: Helicity Boson not to mention that it violates the EULA, and in addition it devalues effort put in by regular players who play as the game was intended, who cannot hope to compete with sweatshop ops and automated cheating.
This makes the effort vs reward margin of some key EVE professions unattractive, which in turn drives players away.
Questions?
If isk farming aint so bad they can **** off back to the china server where they ****ing belong...
ut then again isk farmers ruined the china server...
Everything you just said is wrong. Go read economics.
All they do is increase supply and therefore drive the prices down. However, because they drive down the prices of RAW materials, they in fact drive down the prices of all CONSUMER PRODUCTS. No one loses anything. No one is driven out of business. No one.
I also find the unfair argument weak. I may think it's unfair that some guys got tech 2 BPOs. I may think it's unfair that pilot trained for flavor of the semester. I may think it's unfair that my buddy can play with multiple accounts for great advantage. In the end, none cares of what I think.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.06.06 03:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Andrea Skye Its cheating. Why play any game if your going to cheat.
You are allowed to scam and cheat people, it's just part of the sandbox... but if someone uses automatized scripting to mine he is worse then ******?
There are deep and fundamental differences so that strawman falls flat on it's face. Ingame scammers are actually playing the game and operating within the EULA. Cheaters are not and cause all the issues already mentioned.
They do not even closely correlate.
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dexington
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Posted - 2010.06.06 04:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Zartrader Ingame scammers are actually playing the game and operating within the EULA. Cheaters are not and cause all the issues already mentioned.
They do not even closely correlate.
The EULA may or may not be legally binding within the country you live in, unless you agree to have you case tryed within the US, it's properly safe to say that macrominers are operating within the legal boundaries of the EULA.
As you state in your previous macromining leads to hacking and identity theft, basiclly it's the first step into a life of crime. Don't you think the macrominers started by cheating and scaming?, when did they really take the first step?
Kinda pointless to tell people it's okay to cheat aslong as they follow the rules...
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.06.06 04:12:00 -
[25]
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Zartrader Ingame scammers are actually playing the game and operating within the EULA. Cheaters are not and cause all the issues already mentioned.
They do not even closely correlate.
The EULA may or may not be legally binding within the country you live in, unless you agree to have you case tryed within the US, it's properly safe to say that macrominers are operating within the legal boundaries of the EULA.
As you state in your previous macromining leads to hacking and identity theft, basiclly it's the first step into a life of crime. Don't you think the macrominers started by cheating and scaming?, when did they really take the first step?
Kinda pointless to tell people it's okay to cheat aslong as they follow the rules...
There is no correlation at all between ingame scammers and macro miners irrespective of ISK selling and the other issues.
Scammers play the game, macro miners do not. Scammers do not use more server resources than other players and do not push out legitimate players from areas. Scammers do not cause artificial markets.
Also, scammers are not game cheats, they are ingame cheats which is also encouraged and supported by the game mechanics. For me there is a clear distinction. One is valid game play the other is not game play at all.
It's a complete strawman to try and compare the two.
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ghosttr
Amarr Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2010.06.06 04:31:00 -
[26]
I don't like macros, but Im also not a fan of how CCP usually turns a blind eye to them. And doesn't seem to want to implement any strategy which may reduce their numbers. Macro miners have had a whole 7 years to perfect their stuff, and ccp hasn't changed mining a bit since day one.
Im more fed up with CCP for not doing anything with the mining part of the game, than with the macroers. The macro-types try and get in every game, but the infestation we have now i think is a direct result of 7 years of inaction on CCPs part.
Now rmt is different b/c ccp doesn't want anybody getting at their $$. But if its not taking money from ccp who gives a **** right? |
Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2010.06.06 05:20:00 -
[27]
personally I don't think it is ok that pricks like one I see run 23/7 in Delve system MJXW and RCI for example making I would expect in the region of 500m-1bil per day and after numerous petition I don't even bother anymore because the guy is still at it. How am I positive he is macroer? Noone would be stupid enough to watch me setup drag bubble around their small pos and then go back to ratting 5mins after I leave system. Got him 3 times this way so he either ******ed or of course macroer.
I don't care about high sec macro miner because it takes 5+ account to make as much isk per hour as an active golem pilot. Macro ratter is whole different story.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Cruoris Seraphim Exalted.
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Posted - 2010.06.06 06:42:00 -
[28]
Using automated **** is illegal so it's bad mkay :P
And it certainly doesn't make it right if it makes prices cheaper because losers are then people who are following the rules.
Hate comes from the fact that certain stuff has been made by CCP so that it's easy to exploit it by macroing and they do nothing about it.
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You'wot
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Posted - 2010.06.06 08:22:00 -
[29]
Because of Macro.
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.06 10:23:00 -
[30]
Using a macro is a violation of the EULA, specifically:
"You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."
Thread locked as discussions on use of macros is not permitted.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online
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