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Prozarc Zinog
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Posted - 2010.06.07 15:40:00 -
[1]
I was watching some of the AT8 matches from the other day on Youtube. Really awesome stuff. It makes me want to wade into the PvP trenches. However, I hardly ever see Amarr ships in any of those videos. Lots of Caldari, lots of Gallente, and lots of Mimatar, but very very few Amarr. Do Amarr ships (energy weapon bonuses), just suck at PvP in general?
I ask, because I'm getting ready to really spend some SP time on weapons abilities in the next couple of months, and I was currently planning on doing Energy Weapons, but maybe I really need to revisit this and do something else.
Thanks for input.
-Pro
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.06.07 16:08:00 -
[2]
No, they do not suck. Properly fitted and properly piloted amarr ships do very well in pvp. But they are not fotm anymore.
Btw you wont see many properly fitted amarr ships in at - only if you are looking for shield tanked abaddons or single mar guardians... /true is, that aliance tournament pvp different from tranquility pvp... but not that different you should fit shield tank to baddon lol/
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ShahFluffers
Gallente Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.06.07 17:30:00 -
[3]
Amarr ships tend to excel in "fleet" warfare (and by "fleet" I mean 15 to 20+ ships) and prove to be rather lacking in solo/small gang combat. The reason for this, and purely my opinion, is that Amarr ships are generally "one-trick-ponies"... i.e. "tank and gank." They are not very flexible or adaptable to different situation which is somewhat of a necessity in smaller skirmishing gangs.
There are exceptions to this though. The Crusader, Arbitrator, Curse, and Pilgrim are all very nice in solo/small gang combat. _______________________
"Just because I look like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.07 17:45:00 -
[4]
There have been plenty of Curses and Guardians so far, and a few Bhaalgorns which is more an Amarr boat then it is a Minmatar one. Anyways an additional problem for Amarr boats in AT, beyond the previously mentioned, is that they lack midslots for utility which is at a premium for AT. Utility seems to be a huge factor in the AT especially without specialized ships (hence the high concentration of T3). -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Donny Maurasi
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Posted - 2010.06.07 18:08:00 -
[5]
Amarr have some of the best fleet/gang ships in the game, but one area they typically lack in is speed. This is ok on the live sever as most gang/fleet type fights are on gates or at pos's or something like that.
PVP in the tourney is a bit different as most people are fitting for high damage and even speed in some cases which requires the usage of lows for damage mods and that means you typically need a shield tank. This typically puts Amarr out of the mix in most cases.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.07 18:31:00 -
[6]
I can't speak to larger ships but the majority of my kills are in a Punisher, Which works really well in the small gang engagements we tend to have in RVB.
In fact lately our frig fleets tend to be mostly Punishers and Merlins both of which can mount massive buffer tanks.
Also as noted above. Tournament PVP is significantly different from Tranquility PVP. Fits that work well under those rules don't work so well in "live" environments. For example there is much less need for tackle in tournaments where you don't have to worry about making a ship stay around to die so shield tankers can take that mid slot that would normally have to be devoted to tackle and put on another shield mod.
I know from our FFA's that fits that work well in fleet PVP don't work so well there yet fits that are good for FFA's tend to be crap in fleet.
Just like solo fits tend to be different from fleet fits.
Amarr ships excel in fleet combat. Their limited number of mids however limit their flexibility for solo and really small gang stuff. Same goes for Caldari which while they have plenty of mids need those for their tanks, While Mater and Gallente are far more versatile.
Course as Gallente you end up ignoring your ships bonus's as often as not.
I'm actually specced Gallente up to T2 medium blasters and Battleships but I'm thinking real hard about skipping T2 large hybrids and training Amarr and T2 lasers instead(after all the best Gallente BS doesn't usually mount guns anyway).
One thing I would suggest however is training tech II small Auto cannons. AC fit is the only way to fly a Punisher.
It also wouldn't hurt to cross train at least one other races frigs (I'd suggest Mater to get the rifter) That would give you some flexibility for small gang and solo work.
Another problem faced by Amarr in smaller scale engagements is that armor tankers tend to be slow and ponderous. Plates and trimarks while making one able to soak prodigious amounts of damage also turn your ship into a wallowing pig compared to the more nimble shield tanked ships.
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Prozarc Zinog
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Posted - 2010.06.07 21:04:00 -
[7]
I'm doubting that I'll ever be in AT8 or a bigger fleet (15-20). So what I'm reading is that for solo or small gang, I really might consider going a different direction. Is there a race's ships/weapons combo that is just more well suited for smaller encounter PvP?
I'm seeing that maybe a Punisher + T2 AC is a viable option. I already fly an Arbitrator and I enjoy it, so I am looking at Battleclinic builds for the Arby and for its upgrades. What other options should I consider?
Thanks for the great input.
-Pro
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Mithfindel
Aseyakone
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Posted - 2010.06.08 08:30:00 -
[8]
Also remember that in the current AT, only one ship may fit remote repairers. Armageddons should work rather well in short range RR gangs. Some tackle, and each battleship has a utility slot for a large remote repairer or perhaps a neutralizer. Further, the Apocalypse is possibly the best sniper in the game. Also useful with megapulses. The Abaddon is a beast when properly fitted. The Harbinger is a good battlecruiser. The Arbitrator is one of the good T1 cruisers. In frigates Amarr are a bit lacking, though as mentioned, the Punisher is pretty good for what it is. On the T2 lineup, the Guardian (logistics), Zealot (anti-support sniper), Curse (cap warfare, nano) and the Pilgrim (ninja) are worth a mention. And of course the Damnation as a "buff bot", though for armour bonuses, a Legion can be even better (plus possible to fit so that it is impossible to probe out, so it can almost safely afk in a safe). Of the faction lineup, there Slicer is okay for an empire faction frigate, and Navy Omens can deal nice damage.
Why, then, these ships do not work for the alliance tournament?
Armageddons have been used in a few instances - for example, coupled with a Bhaalgorn they were pretty impressive. Just not very common. Without good support, they likely face problems if the other side gets under the tracking of their guns. Snipers are not very effective in the tournament, so Apocs are mainly out - and within the limits of the arena, the range bonus is wasted even on megapulses. Abaddons, technically, could work quite fine in the tournament. I think we saw a few good Abaddon uses the last tournament. Of course, as tier 3 battleships, 'baddons might cost a few points more. (Not bothered to check the rules.)
In an armour-tanking gang, Harbinger might be an alternative to a Hurricane. The Arbitrator would work very well against turret-based opposing fleets. The Zealot, again, suffers that its long-range configuration isn't really useable, and small and fast ships can get under its tracking when up close. Plus it is not very versatile, not having drones or many midslots. We've seen quite a few Curses and Guardians. Pilgrims are not really feasible, since you can't cloak in the tournament, so what an uncloaked Pilgrim can do, a Curse can do better. And for the command ship lineup, we've seen a few Damnations. Also, the Amarr are lacking in electronic warfare (midslots) and drones. (Except the Arbitrator hulls.)
So, a while a full "Golden Fleet" lineup might not be very feasible in a tournament due to limitations mentioned above, fielding Amarr ships might be effective in two scenarios: First, Amarr battleships (megapulse Armageddons or Abaddons) for damage with off-race EW and tackle support. Second and the quite commonly seen way is using the "tourney-good" Amarr cruisers (Curse, Damnation, Guardian) to support a mostly non-Amarr fleet.
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MasterOB1
Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.06.08 09:51:00 -
[9]
I massively disagree.
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Ozanna leCureHardy
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Posted - 2010.06.08 15:07:00 -
[10]
OB1 has a point
No one's mentioned the Sentinel yet, but it's pretty nasty to fight against and can effectively solo.
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Gligan
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Posted - 2010.06.08 21:05:00 -
[11]
Only fleet action??? WTH are you talking about - curse and pilgrim are 2 of the best solo ships out there. Recon ship that can suck your cap dry, disable your turrets and then hit you with drones? You're looking at a ship which uses every single slot for pvp purpose.
Amarr have solid ships in every category, every situation you care to think of there's amarr ship solution.
And not only that, they have multiple best in class. |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2010.06.08 22:33:00 -
[12]
The Vengeance.
/walks away
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Drake Neutrino
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Posted - 2010.06.09 10:35:00 -
[13]
I'm just echoing everyone else in saying that the AT is unrepresentative of TQ PvP and that Amarr are actually very good. They are perhaps weakest in terms of t1 frigs and cruisers but skills for those are easy to (cross-) train.
Minmatar is really the way to go for solo/small gang roaming but as someone else pointed out, the curse and pilgrim are pretty awesome solo as well.
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Kazzzi
Amarr Iniquitous Technologies Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.06.10 22:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum The Vengeance.
/walks away
Venge works fine.
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=91236
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=46049
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=30871
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=39363
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=32298
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=32181
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27223
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=34927
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_related&kll_id=35009
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=26340 |
Unctom
Minmatar Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.11 06:51:00 -
[15]
Amarr have plenty of great pvp ships but mostly in t2 cruisers,battleships, and caps. I think amarr has the best lineup of t2 cruisers for pvp(maybe tied with minmatar t2 cruisers).
Btw I really don't see 'lots' of gallente in the tourney so far(statistically gallente is at 12% while amarr is at 10% for tournament usage so far). |
CyberRaver
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
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Posted - 2010.06.11 08:30:00 -
[16]
I pvp in nothing but amarr ships, curse is godly, guardian is borderline OP, and the harb is a DPS machine Although lately im fond of my abso
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Xiozor
Green Void Inc
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Posted - 2010.06.12 13:40:00 -
[17]
The Harbinger is great to solo with, or use in very small gangs. It has 4 mid-slots too which is a lot for Amarr. ----------------------------------------------- Mr.Kippling just launched a nuclear holocaust at third world countries! ... But he does make exceedingly good cakes. |
Dodgy Past
Amarr Debitum Naturae BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2010.06.13 11:53:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 13/06/2010 11:54:44 Very happy with my line up of Amarr T2 cruisers. Think around a third of my kills are in the Zealot, Curse has been working well though I still need to practice with it ( so much micromanagement ). The Vengeance has it's role which it does admirably, I love the Malediction and the crusader is passable though struggling like so many other ships ever since the Dramiel because FOTM.
It's also unsurprising how often FCs ask me to take a damage role with the Abaddon in RR BS gangs, though I prefer the 'geddon for longer roams due to it's better cap management and then there's the Apoc when you need even more cap / range.
Harb is the Harb is the Harb, cheap 70km Beam boat, Shield Nano DPS monster or 70k EHP armor utility boat with more than decent DPS.
The one thing I would say is that Amarr are very skill intensive to make the fullest use of due to the fact that you need good skills for armor, shield, gunnery, missiles, RR, cap, cap warfare and tracking disruptors.
I will cross train one day, probably at around 30m SP since until then I'll still have plenty to learn about the ships I can already fly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- you seem determined to turn it into ******* Hollyoaks for neckbeards. |
Annie Anomie
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.06.13 18:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Prozarc Zinog I was watching some of the AT8 matches from the other day on Youtube. Really awesome stuff. It makes me want to wade into the PvP trenches. However, I hardly ever see Amarr ships in any of those videos. Lots of Caldari, lots of Gallente, and lots of Mimatar, but very very few Amarr. Do Amarr ships (energy weapon bonuses), just suck at PvP in general?
I ask, because I'm getting ready to really spend some SP time on weapons abilities in the next couple of months, and I was currently planning on doing Energy Weapons, but maybe I really need to revisit this and do something else.
Thanks for input.
-Pro
Nope.
Amarr boats are brilliant.
Big gaps in the line-up are AFs (depending on what you think of the veng) and the Omen sucking.
Lasers are awesomesauce.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.13 19:39:00 -
[20]
The fights where the people know how what they are doing they absolutely stomp anything and everything.
A couple of things that needs to be remembered when piloting Amarr hulls: - You are cap dependent, lose your cap and you lose your ship. Ungroup guns to stagger, does heaps for cap!). - You have sod all midslots so a wingman is not only beneficial, but often mandatory (can be another Amarr though).
Keep those in mind and Amarr can be quite good. What they lack in the solo arena they have in spades when in gangs.
As for advice regarding "should you train Amarr" .. if you like to fly battle ships and battlecruisers then yes, they are worth it. If you want to mix it up and fly everything, look elsewhere (Amarr line-up is severely lacking below BC's),
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.13 19:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Amarr line-up is severely lacking below BC's),
Besides the Interceptors, Cov-op/bomber's, Recons, Logistics and HAC's that is. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.13 20:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Amarr line-up is severely lacking below BC's),
Besides the Interceptors, Cov-op/bomber's, Recons, Logistics and HAC's that is.
New scram has all but killed the kiting Crusader. Purifier is lacking compared other bombers except the fatty Gallente, Cov-Ops are probers - who the hell cares about balance in that class, Guaridna is supreme in static armour fights - granted, Zealot is well above average when sniping .. below in all others, better off with Minnie/Gallente for everything not exceeding 100km and Curse/Pilgrim are godly in the right hands.
On the whole the Amarr T2 cruisers are above average. Question is if a person asking whether a racial weapon system is worth training for needs/wants to hear what the costly T2 basket is like. Starting out in PvP using T2 hulls is a first class ticket back to high-sec when cost out weighs benefit by a factor of a bazillion
Summary: I answered giving only information pertinent to the question at hand.
PS: Best HAC is and always will be the Ishtar as far as I am concerned. Expensive to abandon drones constantly but massive potential if ISK is of minor consequence.
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Jin Nib
Resplendent Knives
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Posted - 2010.06.13 22:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Amarr line-up is severely lacking below BC's),
Besides the Interceptors, Cov-op/bomber's, Recons, Logistics and HAC's that is.
New scram has all but killed the kiting Crusader. Purifier is lacking compared other bombers except the fatty Gallente, Cov-Ops are probers - who the hell cares about balance in that class, Guaridna is supreme in static armour fights - granted, Zealot is well above average when sniping .. below in all others, better off with Minnie/Gallente for everything not exceeding 100km and Curse/Pilgrim are godly in the right hands.
On the whole the Amarr T2 cruisers are above average. Question is if a person asking whether a racial weapon system is worth training for needs/wants to hear what the costly T2 basket is like. Starting out in PvP using T2 hulls is a first class ticket back to high-sec when cost out weighs benefit by a factor of a bazillion
Summary: I answered giving only information pertinent to the question at hand.
PS: Best HAC is and always will be the Ishtar as far as I am concerned. Expensive to abandon drones constantly but massive potential if ISK is of minor consequence.
The Malediction is a fantastic Tackler, only beat out by the Stiletto by a slim margin IMO. The Purifier is a great bomber it has good slot layout and does EM damage, it is second to the Hound but whatever (I haven't flown either in a long long time so maybe they're not FOTM anymore). The Anathema is the best looking ship in the game, it's definitely worth a mention given that it fills it's roll out pretty well and has a good slot layout.
Yes starting out in T2 would be off putting but it takes months to train up to loose that big anyways. During which time he'll be practicing in some of the most difficult, finicky, T1 hulls in the game (or cross train into Minmatar which is what I did). Also he's taking his cue from the Alliance Tournament where they throw gobs and gobs of ISK at their ships so it's not like he isn't aiming at T2 in the long run.
PS: Ugliest ships are, and will always be, Gallente amorphous, glistening, turd-shaped hulls. (not to mention the paint jobs yechk) Better to stick with Amarr. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
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Kesper North
Caldari Epiphyte Mining and Exploration Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.06.14 19:54:00 -
[24]
The Harbinger and the Sacrilege are excellent solo/small gang ships. The Harbinger also makes one of the best sniper battlecruisers (we guys what live in 0.0 started using sniper BC fleets a lot after the DD became a single-shot weapon). Conversely, the Zealot is one of the best sniper HACs (and is king of the hill in closerange 'brofist formation' armor/ab/eccm HACs as well).
The Abaddon is both a dps machine and can fit a ridiculous buffer tank, easily one of the best docking-games ships around.
The Armageddon and Apoc are staple fleet battleships - nothing is better for shooting a POS than a ship that won't run out of ammo, and the Apoc is a fine sniper as well.
The Crusader is a decent solo ceptor, though of course Dramiels will eat it for breakfast.
I never really got into the Curse and Pilgrim all that much, but they have a good reputation. I just don't have the drone skills to take advantage of them.
There's plenty of PVP bang for your buck in Amarr ships, and they are still one of my favorite things to fly. However, Minmatar are the current flavor of the month (and Angel ships even more so). I am now addicted to solo PVPing in a Sleipnir, gods help me, cause THAT gets expensive fast...
On the other hand, the Legion is utter crap. -- Killed me? Read about it in my blog! Northern Lights: Solo PVP in EVE Online
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FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel The Orca Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.06.14 20:09:00 -
[25]
Edited by: FeralShadow on 14/06/2010 20:09:15 I absolutely love pvping as amarr. But yes, they have a niche, just like most other ships. They have relatively good tracking compared to other BS turrets, as well as the ability to instantly increase their range (or increase their damage) by switching out crystals. So, I think they're better at prolonged engagement against moving targets. IE. my 3 geddon gang can **** a bc/cruiser/frigate gang, but would probably have some issues against a proper BS gang. I personally think the FOTM right now is artillery maelstroms (though they haven't really been used in the tournament) because of their incredibly high alpha damage. You get enough of the maelstroms primarying one target, it doesn't matter how much repping capability the ship has (or the logistics has) if you insta-pop it. Which actually isn't that hard. (this being said from a pure battleship standpoint)
_______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura -CDS Now Taking Contracts-
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.15 07:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Grath Telkin on 15/06/2010 07:17:44
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Jin Nib
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Amarr line-up is severely lacking below BC's),
Besides the Interceptors, Cov-op/bomber's, Recons, Logistics and HAC's that is.
New scram has all but killed the kiting Crusader. Purifier is lacking compared other bombers except the fatty Gallente, Cov-Ops are probers - who the hell cares about balance in that class, Guaridan is supreme in static armor fights - granted, Zealot is well above average when sniping .. below in all others, better off with Minnie/Gallente for everything not exceeding 100km and Curse/Pilgrim are godly in the right hands.
Ignoring how wrong most of what you say about amarr ships is, I'm seriously taking issue with the zealot bit. The zealot is an AMAZING sniper, end of story, but it also, performs VERY well as a short range pulse boat. In fact, if you have any knowledge of current tactics (you don't, your post shows it), you would know that pulse zealots are raping things from one end of eve to the other.
Should you ever bring them to a fast moving hac gang? Hell no, theres not much in the Amarian line up that fits that bill, outside of inties, since the nano nerf (the sac used to own face all nano'd out), but to say that you'd rather have a galente/minmatar boat for anything under 100km shows exactly how little real time intel you have on anything actually going on battle wise in game.
Maybe its been a while for you, or your just not up to date on the changes coming down the line (it took a pretty decent amount of time for sniper hacs to catch on), but I can assure you that witnessing the purple fist first hand will eventually change your mind.
The effects of a few pulse zealots:
Purple Fist
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Danny Lonnegan
Caldari Nex Somes Ubertas Venator Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.06.15 07:45:00 -
[27]
The Harbinger is a really great boat. I've had a lot of fun flying a shield tanked nano fit. Brutal DPS (full rack of T2 heavy pulses and three heat sinks, plus five medium drones), surprisingly good tank and speed.
It's the T1 cruisers where Amarr are weak. The Omen's pretty terrible, though I've been playing with a nano fit shield Omen lately, which at least gets you a reasonably quick glass cannon. The Maller would be a beast if you could mount something besides pop guns on it; as it is, it's mostly good for baiting morons. I've heard the Arbitrator is a good drone boat, but skilling up to fly a neut/drone boat well kinda takes you off the beaten path for an Amarr pilot. I've only ever seen one person flying an Auguror, and he sucked.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.06.15 10:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Grath Telkin Ignoring how wrong most of what you say about amarr ships is, I'm seriously taking issue with the zealot bit.
Personally I consider the fact that I am not in the loop when it comes to FoTM crap in 0.0 a badge of honour
Since when was 35+ considered "a few"? .. guess I underestimate the blobbiness of your habitat, sounds even more horrible than I thought .. to each his own I suppose.
Zeal is awesome in swarms, but then so are all ships .. you should try a 40-50 man Arty Thrasher spank fleet .. one volleys most sub capitals unless it is buffered to hell and back.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.06.15 11:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Grath Telkin Purple Fist
That you killed unorganized and uncosistent fleet of ships with highly organized fleet of hacs doesnt say anything about zealot. Not even talking about that most of that fleet were failfits, they didnt have proper logi support, proper gangboosting and they were fighting against afterburner fitted hacs which were properly boosted/rred in terms of armor and sig radius.
Also ishtar can do this better because it can project same dps as zealot to 80k+, do dualprop or even bring some ewar while receiving only slighly less efficient rr.
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CyberRaver
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
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Posted - 2010.06.15 11:47:00 -
[30]
Sentry ishtars are fail in any fast moving hac gang, try keeping sentries within scoop range AND keeping yaself safe from any incoming tackle, and if u have to emergency warp off you lose all the drones Zealots are very very nice snipers
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