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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
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Posted - 2010.06.09 05:07:00 -
[31]
I have had a bug hunter confirm that this is working as intended, and that it is to assist the transition. This is the green light to go balls deep. Enjoy.
Originally by: LADY MEGA because of the PI?
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Raskor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.09 05:21:00 -
[32]
Or they just use a little common sense and remove the npc buy orders. If the intent of leaving the orders up was to maintain stock levels for POS and industry supply, why do we still need npc purchases?
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Paruza
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Posted - 2010.06.09 11:33:00 -
[33]
Quote: They cant just remove the npc's goods without people making them, people need a supply for pos & t2 prod
Actually yes, they could have just removed them on day 1, it would cause a huge rush for planets, it would have been profitable (in the way that it was intended). It astounds me just how royally CCP sqrewed all of this up. Not that I'm complaining, I'm going to make a killing.
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Awlton Stueen
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Posted - 2010.06.09 11:41:00 -
[34]
I don't agree with that. I'm not sure the majority of people out there stockpiled materials, as a lot started to train PI skills yesterday, some did and maybe will make money, but that's the price to pay to have PI, you can stockpile now so I don't see the point in complaining.
Players need to see how the whole thing works and a few days to start producing and supply their products on the market. If you check the market today, there is almost no order for PI products from players.
If CCP removed NPC orders on day one, it would have been a huge mess, you need days to product enough P3 tu supply a POS, not mentionning the time to find a good planet and haul your stuff in the system, then destroy & rebuild because you f*cked up. Prices of these products would have skyrocketed and left many POS offline.
So I think a lot of us will lose money in the first days / weeks, the time needed by CCP to see how to handle and balance the things, but once NPC orders and stocks will be gone, PI will be interesting and profitable ... for those who spent money in the early days and have a production chain and know how things works.
It's just my opinion.
Players and the market need some time
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Misoku
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Posted - 2010.06.09 12:46:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Weaselior imagine how many people will make silicate glass
Now when I get blown up doing L3 Cargo Delivery, I can set my extractors and industry PINs into action so as not to disappoint my agent. --
Looking for high-sec POSes? Check out my corp services for a swift, trustworthy and affordable solution. |
Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.06.09 13:54:00 -
[36]
Quote: It's just my opinion.
It also happens to be wrong. They need to shut off the faucet as soon as possible. This is kind of like the oil spill in the golf of mexico, it's already too late, the question is how much worse it will be.
Seriously, the idea that somehow pos's would suddenly start starving due to lack of fuels on the market when PI started is beyond implausible. There's a crap ton stockpiled by speculators, most pos owners keep a large amount of fuel on hand anyway, and its not hard to make pos fuels from PI regardless.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.09 13:59:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Misoku
Originally by: Weaselior imagine how many people will make silicate glass
Now when I get blown up doing L3 Cargo Delivery, I can set my extractors and industry PINs into action so as not to disappoint my agent.
Would not work, the new courier mission stuff is not produced by PI.
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.09 19:41:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Akita T http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1324999&page=30#882 Tehee...
Common sense given the clarity of a decently thought out and well written explanation. A service to the community.
Best regards, Windjammer
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.09 19:51:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tyranus vonCarstein CCP seriously just needs to hire Akita T to replace the currently econ-guru they think they have. Wouldn't even have to pay to relocate him. Pay him a part time salary and whatnot...
Am I the only one to see the logic in this?
I fail to see your logic. Akita T explains how the creation works and how it can be used and does a fair job. That having been said, who do you think CCP's go to person was to help create the thing Akita is educating you on? The "Doc" (Dr. Eyjolfur Gudmundsson).
So for the next project would you hire the architect or the person who reports on the architects work?
Windjammer
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Sephiroth CloneIIV
Section 8 Industries Looney Toons.
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Posted - 2010.06.10 05:04:00 -
[40]
They realy should shut down the npc orders.
Currently the quanitys seeded by npc's are limitless. A idea would be to stop replenishing the orders (leting them cease to exist if all of the product was bought out) and then follow up a week latter remove all commonity npc orders.
Signature removed for having inappropriate content. Zymurgist |
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.06.10 09:20:00 -
[41]
You can easily break down the item price into average raw material price.
For example you need 2400 units of raw material to produce one unit of P2 item. So if you have a P2 item, you just need to divide its price by 2400 to get the maximum average raw material cost to produce this P2 item.
Doing so will show you that ONLY THREE npc sold item (enriched uranium, oxygen and silicon) are more expensive than 0,45 isk per unit raw material. All the remaining 18 items cost less than 0,45 isk when you buy them.
Silicate glass, fertilizer, transmitters are around 0,10 and guidance systems around 0,03 isk per unit raw materials.
As comparison: the infamous-cyno jammer was 0,7 isk per unit raw material, rapid assembly array costs around 1,35 isk per raw unit, pos weapons are 1,6 and a large control tower is around 7 isk per raw unit.
But CCP knows that already, for a long while now. After all, they made those numbers. |
Dani WH
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Posted - 2010.06.10 11:04:00 -
[42]
It's so simple. CCP wants us to interact with each other.
It's near to impossible that anyone can build enough materials for himself/corp. So you need to contract other individuals to harvest PI stuff. Even 1m SP noobs are very valuable here.
Keep crying because ur alts can't produce enough fuel and materials. Or adapt and contract helpers
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.06.10 12:55:00 -
[43]
Actually i'm able to produce ALL the npc fuels with the help of my alts and in fairly large amounts too knowledge is power |
Jeriel Jamon
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.06.11 17:15:00 -
[44]
I think you are missing a few points here
1. NPC economies
If you vape all the npc sell orders, there will be massive unemployment on those planets currently producing the items
If you vape the npc buy orders, there will be chronic shortages, leading to hyper inflation
Both of these problems are likely to lead to civil unrest/revolutions leading to a drop in sec status for those systems - DO YOU REALLY WANT LOW SEC SYSTEMS TURNING UP IN HIGH SEC ?
2. Hauling Profession
There has always been money to be made moving the npc items from where they are, to where they are wanted.
In RL you would be paid to haul, in EVE, the buy/sell orders change daily to encourage you to move the goods.
Removing the npc orders would therefore further limit non-mining, non-ratting routes to earning money
3. The "Robotics 'sploit"
Currently you can buy the ingredients for approx 8k,haul it, ship it down, wait a bit, ship it up and haul it again then sell the robots for 21k.
Thats an awful lot of work to gain approx 1m isk per factory per day
Each bs rat you shoot gets approx 1m - guess which is more fun
4. Supply
I have a personnal interest in construction blocks
I use 20,000 a week or 1,000,000 a year if you prefer
A supply chain makes 120 a day if it works properly, (properly involves getting RSI, due to the horrendous clickfest - and being on a planet that can get all the ingredients)
So i need 24 planets worth of people to keep me supplied (20,000/120/7), for an item that sells for approx 500 isk
If they can make PI work, they'll be building stuff that sells for more
Probable Consequences
Once the stockpiles get used up, either the supply dries up or the price rises horribly
So i pass the price rise on to the consumer
You do realise that Invention was designed to bring down the cost of Tech 2 ?
Removing npc orders will massively increase it
So if you fly Tech 2, pray the npc orders stay
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.06.11 19:26:00 -
[45]
Its sort of an impossible task to design something that
will allow players to meet an existing in game need by taking up a new activity, yet a new game activity by its very nature, will permeate gradually over more and more players...the percentage of participants won't reach an equilbrium for 6 month or more in.
So, if twice as many players... perhaps 5 times and many players... will be involved in PI in 6 months, but a need needs to be met in one month.. how do you design it so players now will produce enoughh and yet when many more players get around to trying it they won't crash the markets to the point that its just a little role playing experience?
Either there need to be NPC goods out there (and their refinement scheduals need to be looked at verrry carefully) or it will only take 1/3 or 1/5 of future productive capacity to meed the shorter term needs of goods previously suppleid by NpCs annd there needs to be some other demand out there (NPC purchases?) that give confidence than people can make a minimum isk/hr in the future for their investment.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.06.11 19:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jeriel Jamon uninformed drivel
To further increase the effectiveness of your post I boiled it down to its essence. Say thank you and move to the back of the bus now. PS: Drop in sec status? LOLOLOLOL That's some funny **** there.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
Jypsie
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Posted - 2010.06.11 20:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Jeriel Jamon uninformed drivel
To further increase the effectiveness of your post I boiled it down to its essence. Say thank you and move to the back of the bus now. PS: Drop in sec status? LOLOLOLOL That's some funny **** there.
While I usualy disagree with Shar's caustic nature it's pretty appropriate here. You just totally pulled that out of your ass, Jeriel.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.06.11 20:04:00 -
[48]
Jeriel Jamon: yeah we aren't big on roleplaying here in MD.
That said turning HS into lowsec periodically would be awesome
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2010.06.12 00:17:00 -
[49]
Since someone agree with my response, as a form of grumpiness, I'm going to be contrary and answer each point properly and fully. Truly, just to be contrary! Originally by: Jeriel Jamon 1. NPC economies
NPC have no economies. There is very little balance actually in play with NPC supply of products. I can honestly tell you that as I've a very accurate database of all NPC sell and buy orders. It was created about five years ago and has yet to fail. (I actually look forward to the elimination of NPC market interaction.) Originally by: Jeriel Jamon 2. Hauling Profession
If someone invested in freighters to take advantage of NPC non-economy I have one bit of ancient Eve advice: Adapt or die. If they hauling profession is so hyper-specialized as you say, it deserves to die off. Originally by: Jeriel Jamon 3. The "Robotics 'sploit"
You are making the mistake of pricing things before everything settles down. Until the NPC crutches are removed, you have NO IDEA what the price of anything will be. So trying to compare PI activity to any other activity is not a gainful activity for an intelligent mind. Originally by: Jeriel Jamon 4. Supply
You state all of this as if it is a bad thing. Waaaaaah, CCP has made me have to think or work my way out of a paper bag. Please, adapt or die. Construction Blocks used to be sold for 500 isk. Not anymore. If the market is up on those, it is up. I can't see it being down. The problem here, for you apparently, is that you don't like dynamic situations. You've spent time downloading Eve-Meep, or someone else's industry worksheet/app, and consider yourself quite the expert on whatever it is you are doing. IMNSHO you are only standing on the shoulder's of giants and they've shrugged. If you can't keep your head above water in this situation, it is not the game that is flawed. I think I speak for many in the MD: We look forward to the chaos. Times like this sort out the wheat from the chaff. Those that can't hack it, move on to something else. Mind you, when invention was rolled out the "sky was falling" then as well. PI might not be the greatest thing but it is something available to everyone with not much effort. Right now NPC trade goods are only aggressively available to those who first log on after Downtime. After the first 5 minutes, any good quantity of such items is at max prices. (I know, I've played that game too for a while.) So, it might not seem like this is a fairer solution but it actually is. It just sucks to be those who have gotten spoiled to the way things used to be. I have a very small violin playing my heart bleeds for them. Listen very very closely and you might hear it. You might not as well.
Wealth, howsoever got, in Eve makes Lords of morons and gentlemen of thieves; Aptitude and intellect are needless here; 'Tis impudence and money that grants fame. |
XY Zed
Caldari Taarakian Bellator Industries
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Posted - 2010.06.12 08:08:00 -
[50]
My post from a similar thread
Quote: Snabbik ShigenAnother day and CCP still hasn't pulled the sell orders. Go over to EVE-Metrics and look at the volumes moved for Consumer Electronics and Mechanical Parts.
Jita - went from 2M/day to 12M/day
Sinq Laison - 30-50k/day to 1.2M units/day
Citadel - 2M/day to 9M/day
Domain - 50k/day to 450k/day
Kador - 100k/day to 900k/day
Right now, there are roughly 24-25M units of Consumer Electronics and Mechanical Parts being bought daily. That compares to about 4.2M/day in those regions before.
Thats about 7.5 million robotics units a day or 52.5mil robotics units by the end of the week. That would last 10000 POSes 218 days or so, but people are mostly turning those robotics into the NPC buy orders.
Look at the movement of robotics before the announcement of PI its in the order of 1-2 million a day in the forge region alone. Do you know how many advanced processors would have to work to keep the forge running?? It would require (at 3 robotics per hour/per processor) 27,777 processors! or 1461 characters with L3 skills putting up one planet pushing out nothing but robotics.
If anything you guys would be blamming yourself if the player base couldnt plop down 27.7k of well fed advanced processors, if npc orders disappeared completely on the 8th, this is just for a SINGLE commodity....
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ihcn
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Posted - 2010.06.12 09:50:00 -
[51]
CCP really screwed up an amazing opportunity to start off PI with a bang. All sell and buy orders should have been cut off. The people who worked hard and were able to sell pos fuel at 10x normal prices would have made huge amounts of money, and the people who had to buy pos fuel at 10x the normal price would be punished for not predicting what would happen.
And leaving silicate glass orders up? What the hell were they thinking?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2010.06.12 13:32:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 12/06/2010 13:32:48
Originally by: ihcn CCP really screwed up an amazing opportunity to start off PI with a bang. All sell and buy orders should have been cut off. The people who worked hard and were able to sell pos fuel at 10x normal prices would have made huge amounts of money, and the people who had to buy pos fuel at 10x the normal price would be punished for not predicting what would happen.
And leaving silicate glass orders up? What the hell were they thinking?
I think it is more hilarious that they left water on the market. This way they made autotrophs pretty much useless - unless you want to extract them for a meagre 0,23 isk per unit.
Oh, and Non-CS Crystal and Ionic Solutions are also worthless because of npc sold items.
Ionic Solution -> Electrolytes which are only used to build Coolant, Rocket Fuel, Synthetic Oil which are all npc sold. Same with Non-CS Crystals -> Chiral Structures which are only used to build Consumer Electronics, Miniature Electronics and Transmitters, all npc sold.
Even Oxygen is sold for around 0,70 isk per unit raw material (made from noble gas) and it is doubtful if that is enough isk to give people some reasonable income.
So CCP introduced three (or four) raw materials which are worthless because of npc sell orders. Somehow I am not impressed. |
Scrapyard Bob
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.06.14 01:32:00 -
[53]
Looks like NPC market orders are no longer renewing. Buy out an NPC station stock and they don't restock.
Robotics buy orders look to have gone missing as well.
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.06.14 12:36:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Scrapyard Bob Looks like NPC market orders are no longer renewing. Buy out an NPC station stock and they don't restock.
Robotics buy orders look to have gone missing as well.
Not true.Npc orders in jita replenish in instant. knowledge is power |
Scrapyard Bob
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.06.14 14:34:00 -
[55]
Including Robotics and Rocket Fuel?
Robotics sell orders do seem to be still around in Metro, but the buy orders are gone. Rocket Fuel was never a staple in Metropolis, so there are no orders to check.
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core
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Posted - 2010.06.14 14:35:00 -
[56]
rf is the only 1 atm. knowledge is power |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.06.14 15:08:00 -
[57]
Given that NPC orders adjust themselves (10% range cap, from what I've read) it makes you wonder why CCP didn't just increase the range cap from 10% to 50% to 100% to unlimited over time.
NPC goods would stay on the market. NPC sell orders would increase in price and NPC buy orders decrease in price. This would give folks time to get PI up and running, NPC prices would change until it becomes profitable to use PI instead, and it would limit issues such as the Robotics abuse (high volumes would cause the NPC prices to change faster.)
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Kudlow N'cramer
World Eaters Excavation
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Posted - 2010.06.15 11:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Paruza
Quote: They cant just remove the npc's goods without people making them, people need a supply for pos & t2 prod
Actually yes, they could have just removed them on day 1, it would cause a huge rush for planets, it would have been profitable (in the way that it was intended). It astounds me just how royally CCP sqrewed all of this up. Not that I'm complaining, I'm going to make a killing.
Then people would have stopped doing PI when the bubble popped, causing even more volatility in the market and a lot of dead extractors littered throughout low and null sec. That's what would have happened if they just "let it go".
One positive thing I do think it's done is move a lot of the population on the doorstep of low sec. A lot more will be willing to go into low sec (the yield jump from 0.5 to 0.3 is remarkable), which can only be good for pirating. People have been yearning for an ore re-balancing to do that for awhile, but PI seems to have accomplished it.
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Jessica Verne
Minute to Midnight
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Posted - 2010.06.16 09:51:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Drexciyian ...if they removed all npc goods at dt then you'd find a bunch of pos going offline due to lack of fuel
Oh the humanity! Anythign but offline poses!
Seriously-- we had like 2-3 months notice to plan. I for one got like 1 year of pos npc goods and a good 6 months of stuff needed to continue my T2 production.
As more of the details on PI came out, it was about maximizing on the more advanced stuff, and selling the ridiculous amounts of low level pi-related stuff like Oxygen.
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Raindeth
FACTION Inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.16 11:46:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Raindeth on 16/06/2010 11:47:19
Originally by: Tyranus vonCarstein CCP seriously just needs to hire Akita T to replace the currently econ-guru they think they have. Wouldn't even have to pay to relocate him. Pay him a part time salary and whatnot...
Am I the only one to see the logic in this?
Some people like to make money from things they notice (and keep quiet about it) and others like to show off how clever they are. Unfortunately, the latter often interferes with the machinations of the former, but such is life. Just don't get the false impression that because someone [edit: keeps] pointing out these money-making opportunities on a regular basis that he or she is the first or only one to think of them.
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