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Srioghal moDhream
B and T Inc
23
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Posted - 2012.08.20 13:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Dominik Miethling wrote:Mu-Shi Ai wrote:If an order can't be fulfilled, it will automatically drop when someone tries to fill it, and the buyer will have wasted his/her money putting the order up in the first place. Where are my items going then? Back to my hangar telling me "We're sorry, but the trader has no money"? Can I still see the char i tried to sell it to in the market history?
Just check and see who sold you are the overpriced stuff you were trying to sell to make huge money for no risk. That guy is usually involved. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
71
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Posted - 2012.08.20 14:37:00 -
[32] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:Has any one ever used the Margin Trading skill for anything except scamming?
Yes, if you want to put out massive numbers of buy orders for all kinds of meta stuff (for mass reprocessing), and don't expect these orders to be filled in a number of hours, then only having to put 25% in escrow helps a lot (since after a while, you'll collect and reprocess the bought items, sell the minerals and have ISK for the remaining sell orders). |
Kirin Intarca
Armored Core Inc. Industrial Technonauts
6
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Posted - 2012.08.22 20:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
WT Hommie wrote: Who would it hurt to address this problem? Who would be upset about a change that prevented a player from being taken advantage of (regardless of if it is a "scam" or a "valid" manipulation of the existing game mechanics)?
While I do not support dishonest trading, it is a reality of life, in game, and out. My friend bought a "rolex" and it turned out to be fake. However, Intelligent research about actual market values and not falling for the quick isk trading schemes will reduce your chances of getting stuck with good that sell slowly or for less than you paid for it.
As far as who would be hurt to fix this mechanic? About 90% of the traders in the game. I happen to not be one of them. My buy and sell orders are fully escrowed as I do not have the margin trading skill. On the other hand, I can only set up 17 orders. A trader (someone who makes their isk by sitting in jita buying low and selling high) would make excellent use of that skill in ligitimate trade.
But as scammers are very abundant, and just like real life, the police do activly hunt con artists. CCP could try to combat it. Though I doubt ANY MMO has the manpower to do an effective job at that. Additionally, gaming is not RL. If you get scammed in a game, all well. Its a game. Furthermore, one reason people even play games is escapism, and being able to do things in a game you may not be able or allowed to do in real life. For example, flying a spaceship, murdering innocent miners, or controlling millions of isk/currency.
I agree, you should enjoy your games. IF you don't enjoy a game then it is not worth playing. I fully support that EvE is not for everyone, which is one reason I enjoy it so much. Ever since I left WoW, I have not had to deal with a single whiney 12 year old child screaming into my headset though Ventrilo. I traded the 12 year old child, for the scams, murderers [gankers], and a-holes. This game take a lot of brain power, even for simple missions. Fiting a ship is complex, day trading is risky, and Null Sec is dangerous. Play it and like it... or maybe EvE is just not your type of game. <--- that was meant as a nice pice of advice, not a griefer commet. Really, if you don't enjoy the game, then if I were you, I would find another game. |
ColdFyre 556
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.09.04 04:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
hey guys i got this email from a nigerian guy who wants to transfer his family wealth to me, but there's not a big sign on the top that says if it's legit or not.
despite the fact that it obviously makes zero sense that it would be legit, the very fantastical thought of making tons of money for zero work is strong enough that i'll send my bank account information anyway. and if they steal my money, it's not my fault, cause there isn't a warning from my e-mail provider that it's a scam. |
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
40
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Posted - 2012.09.04 07:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
Aside from being completely off topic... wth are you on about? Mods - Please remove last post, completely off topic... |
Sun Win
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
69
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Posted - 2012.09.04 15:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:Aside from being completely off topic... wth are you on about? Mods - Please remove last post, completely off topic...
The fact that you don't understand how the previous post was completely on topic is worrisome.
On the other hand, you did see something that looked like a scam, though you couldn't figure out why, and your first instinct was to ask around instead of buying the thing, so there's hope for you yet. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
123
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Posted - 2012.09.04 16:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
WT Hommie wrote:This is certainly an abuse of the system as I have no way of knowing that the "buyer" will not fulfill the buy order until the purchase and sale are made. No amount of research or investigation would give me any information or reason to believe the order would not be fulfilled. .
Maybe because of the anomolous price?
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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
149
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Posted - 2012.09.05 19:02:00 -
[38] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:Mu-Shi Ai wrote:WT Hommie wrote:This is certainly an abuse of the system as I have no way of knowing that the "buyer" will not fulfill the buy order until the purchase and sale are made. No amount of research or investigation would give me any information or reason to believe the order would not be fulfilled.
It would be better if I knew that this was a margin order (maybe list it in yellow) then I would have knowledge that the buy order did not have full escrow and know that I am taking a risk, in the current scenario I have no idea there is risk involved until after I have been taken advantage of.
Basically I got ripped off on not only the ISK (800,000,000.00), but the weeks of play time spent earning that ISK. This is really upsetting and I hope that you will reconsider the "valid use of game mechanics" and make changes so hard working players don't get ripped off.
I feel ccp is supporting the con artist and don't understand why they cannot fix this simple flaw in their game mechanics. How could it possibly matter to you whether a buy order is possible to fill or not? For all it ultimately matters, that order might have been filled by somebody else mere milliseconds before you tried to fill it. You are not entitled to fill a specific buy order, and could just as easily have lost your money whether the buy order was backed by Margin Trading or not. Oh, and by the way, tons of traders have the Margin Trading skill. It's always on. So even if such orders were marked for your pointless convenience, it wouldn't tell you much of anything in the first place. If it marks the escrow as not being 100% you'd know not to try and fulfil it.
You miss one big fact. Pretty much every serious trader has margin trading skill trained. it affects every order they place. So basically the only orders that would not be red would be the ones placed by non traders.
The intent is that when the order is filled the remaining required isk to fill the order comes from the players wallet. Normally this works very well as the chances of all your buy orders being filled while none of your sell orders are filled allowing your wallet to deplete is quite small. This can happen to orders that were not meant to be scams if the trader has a lot of buy orders up while having poor sales for a time. Once there wallet is empty their orders will start failing, even if they do not want them too.
There are a few possible fixes to at least reduce the scamming related to this skill. However this may open even more doors for exploit.
First off many of the margin trade scammers use empty corp wallet divisions to set up the orders rather than emptying their wallet. Some of this could be reduced if it was made so the margin trading skill did not apply to orders set up with a corp wallet. this could also be beneficial to traders who want the option of setting up an order without using the margin trading skill. But this could be worked around to continue with the scam. It would just take a little more work to set up.
Anther more effective option is to let the orders complete, letting the characters wallet go into negative until sell orders are filled to bring it back up. However this could easily be exploited to gain isk by running alts wallets into huge negatives gaining isk for the main character.
If you can think of a way of modifying this mechanic to prevent margin scamming without losing the utility of margin trading I am sure you will get lots of support. |
Prime
Argentium Astrum
0
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Posted - 2012.09.15 11:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
The only REAL problem here is that even trying to account for the margin scam, the mechanics STILL break down.
IE -> someone lists a buy order for 500m (lets say 3 units minimum)
I happen to have the 3 items (independently and not by being suckered into buying it)
I sell the items for 20% (100m each), but all at once to fill the minimum, and at the right station
This should result in 300m - the mechanics SHOULD force the 20% price to at least be paid
ACTUAL RESULT: even selling at 20% fails and you end up with a market sell order, and ZERO isk
This is, IMHO, the REAL problem with ccp margin mechanics
CCP please answer why this is allowed? |
Demolishar
United Aggression
360
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Posted - 2012.09.15 13:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
Prime wrote:The only REAL problem here is that even trying to account for the margin scam, the mechanics STILL break down. IE -> someone lists a buy order for 500m (lets say 3 units minimum) I happen to have the 3 items (independently and not by being suckered into buying it) I sell the items for 20% (100m each), but all at once to fill the minimum, and at the right station This should result in 300m - the mechanics SHOULD force the 20% price to at least be paid ACTUAL RESULT: even selling at 20% fails and you end up with a market sell order, and ZERO isk This is, IMHO, the REAL problem with ccp margin mechanics CCP please answer why this is allowed?
Don't worry, there's a game mechanic behind this which is completely legit. It's what the smart scammers use, but there are plenty of idiots who think emptying wallet is all they need to do. |
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Makro SSRI
dat corp
5
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Posted - 2012.09.15 14:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Prime wrote: the mechanics SHOULD force the 20% price to at least be paid
Wrong. All the mechanics does is reduce market escrow as a percentage of the whole buy order value. Also, when a transaction takes place, market escrow is drained first. Hence when doing a margin trade scam you can drain whatever the percentage left in escrow yourself so that no or very little ISK remains. However, it will be possible to detect this by evaluating market logs. |
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
175
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Posted - 2012.09.15 16:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
Market PvP the purest PvP. |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
38
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Posted - 2012.09.15 21:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Zelda Wei wrote: Market PvP the purest PvP.
Just allow negative wallets. plus a charge from the interstellar bank for going overdrawn. |
Barakach
R-ISK Shadow Operations.
77
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Posted - 2012.09.16 00:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:Zelda Wei wrote: Market PvP the purest PvP.
Just allow negative wallets. plus a charge from the interstellar bank for going overdrawn.
They do get a negative wallet after they get fined, but then they just bio the char.
If the person attempting to fill the order got more money than was in the other person's wallet, then money would be created from nothing. If this was allowed, people would just create new chars to "Scam" themselves and get free money. The whole system would break. |
Nub Sauce
State War Academy Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2012.09.18 00:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
Moonlit Raid wrote:The market shouldn't allow buy orders that cannot be fulfilled. The whole point of the market is to allow trade if there are items listed that are not really for trade what does it become? Remote hangar view? Or another way, why can't I put items up for sale that aren't in my hangar?
Ah much like a short sale? I love this idea! Of course, it should also have all of the dangers of performing short sales.
Leverage is awesome, I wish we could short sale and write options contracts. |
Somates Takiri
Starsheep Industries Otaared Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.10.31 13:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
There are two things to difference:
- There is the Margin-Trading-Scam... which i accept as a feature of the game. I think it should be possible to make an overpriced buyorder using Margin-Trading and a Wallet of 0ISK
- There is the Margin-Trading-0Excrowmoney-Scam/Exploit... where you have a buyorder for an item with 0Money behind. (0 Wallet and 0 Excrow)
The 2. case should be banned from EVE in my opinion. -> Why do you need Margin-Trading, when you can have 0 Escrow Money?
I made here long ago a suggestion how to cure the 2. case (exploit in my eyes)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230679#post1230679 |
Cap James Tkirk
Gung-HO Guns
35
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Posted - 2012.11.01 15:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
Margin scamming is not an exploit lear to read orders before you buy them and if it looks to good to be true............... it is |
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2012.11.02 09:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
I like the above idea of options contracts, sometimes you're not too bothered what you get in return, cash or a particular item. (say for instance that's what you're going to buy anyway). Allows versatility. |
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