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Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
46
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Posted - 2012.07.17 11:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Obviously the Incursus, Merlin and Punisher have been changed substantially or atleast significant. Some or many believe the Rifter is now outclassed completely.
So! Is there any Rifter setup capable of engaging the aforementioned effectively? I'm interested in an answer and I think it may be helpful to the Rifter enthusiast out there.
What solutions have you come up with to increase the viability of the Rifter compared to the Incursus, Punisher and Merlin. Or! Is the Rifter just bad now.
I'll start this off with what I've come up with v0v:
Rifter (140 damage per second, 4,500 effective Hit-points) Gyrostabilizer II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Or
Rifter (130 damage per second, 5,500 effective Hit-points) 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype Engine Enervator Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Anti-Kinetic Pump I
- end of transmission |
Alara IonStorm
2661
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Posted - 2012.07.17 12:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Major Killz wrote: So! Is there any Rifter setup capable of engaging the aforementioned frigates effectively?
That is not what makes a ship good or bad. You should be asking how does the Rifter effect a battle over all, not how good is it in tournament style 1v1 fights.
Answer, it is faster, harder to hit and quicker to lock.
While the Punisher can not fit webs it still often loses to higher tracking Rifters and the Merlin / Incursus can not fit a Nos which means they lose gang tackle on ships with Neuts where the Rifter does not.
Balance does not mean how does it fair in 1v1 Online. Gallente should be better in a brawl fight, Minmatar should be better getting there and escaping. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
46
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Posted - 2012.07.17 13:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tl,dr
I have no interest in whether things are or not balanced (don't care). I'm interested in setups by those who have adapted to these new changes. Nothing more nothing less. Everything else is meh! This is about setups...
So post those setups gentlemen.
- end of transmission |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
437
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 13:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Friendly reminder - the new Slasher, Atron, Condor, and Executioner are rolling out soon. They all have 10 slots and a 80% less cap useage on points role bonus. The tormentor is also being upgraded to three turret slots. |
Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
437
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 13:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
To the point- I've adapted by flying an Ion Merlin with one MASB and a web and point. Frigate to frigate it puts the rifter to shame. |
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
183
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 13:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Friendly reminder - the new Slasher, Atron, Condor, and Executioner are rolling out soon. They all have 10 slots and a 80% less cap useage on points role bonus. The tormentor is also being upgraded to three turret slots.
Is this on SiSi yet? Have you tried them?
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Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
437
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 13:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yes and no. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
226
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Posted - 2012.07.17 13:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
If by "terrible" you mean the fact that choosing the Rifter over another T1 frig getting you 90% of the way to a win (ie. a slam-dunk) no longer applies .. then yes, it is quite atrocious .. terrible is too weak a word to describe it's 'mediocrity' .
Just wait until next summer when the frigate balance pass is complete, that is when we all get grey hair trying to decide which of the :awesomes: (if you like Da Frig that is) we should undock in ... |
Batelle
French Defence Union
90
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 14:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Tl,dr
I have no interest in whether things are or not balanced (don't care). I'm interested in setups by those who have adapted to these new changes. Nothing more nothing less. Everything else is meh! This is about setups...
So post those setups gentlemen.
- end of transmission
No need to be an ass. My reaction to the tier system and skill tree overhaul https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=899560#post899560 |
To mare
Advanced Technology
20
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Posted - 2012.07.17 14:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Major Killz wrote: So! Is there any Rifter setup capable of engaging the aforementioned frigates effectively?
Or! Is the Rifter just terrible now?
That is not what makes a ship good or bad. You should be asking how does the Rifter effect a battle over all, not how good is it in tournament style 1v1 fights. Answer, it is faster, harder to hit and quicker to lock. The Punisher can not fit webs with tackle and prop and it still often loses to higher tracking Rifters. The Merlin / Incursus can not fit a Nos which means they lose gang tackle on ships with Neuts where the Rifter does not. Rifter can Arty Kite with its tracking or use its speed to hang out at the edge of Web Range where there guns can not hit. It has lots of uses and options but is not the best at everything anymore. Balance does not mean how does it fair in 1v1 Online. Gallente should be better in a brawl fight, Minmatar should be better getting there and escaping. so you sayin that the rifter is a better tackling frig than the others 3? but the point of this newly balanced frigs is to brawl not tackle, for that we are gonna get the new teckling T1 frigs.
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Alara IonStorm
2667
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Posted - 2012.07.17 14:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
To mare wrote: so you sayin that
Why is it that posts that start with follow up with a recap that is always mistaken.
To mare wrote: the rifter is a better tackling frig than the others 3? but the point of this newly balanced frigs is to brawl not tackle, for that we are gonna get the new teckling T1 frigs.
Don't think so 1 dimensionally. Speed matters in a brawl and it matters in engaging in getting in range for a brawl. So does Nuets and Nos and tracking.
Those tackling Frigates may be quicker but what if you didn't need that speed but needed tank and nos, these Tackle Frigates don't have a tracking bonus either which makes it harder to kill Drones. Who said they were built solely for brawling. They are general combat Frigates with good all around stats. Maybe other Frigates have different stats that serve it better in a close range slug fest but if that was all there is to combat Gallente would be the only race flown.
What is more the Rifter has many desirable stats besides just Tank and DPS like range, selectable damage types, cap free weapons, smaller signature rad. If you can't use all that to your advantage in a fight... well... |
To mare
Advanced Technology
20
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 14:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:What is more the Rifter has many desirable stats besides just Tank and DPS like range, selectable damage types, cap free weapons, smaller signature rad. If you can't use all that to your advantage in a fight... well... well many of those advantages are rather useless in what is a T1 frig fight the 90% of the time. the only advantage the rifter still hold is cap free weapon and a neut (fitting is a ***** if you want the neut) and given that you need to give time to the neut to work and its kind of hard when ships like merlin and incursus almost do double of your dps. imho the rifter should get a rof bonus instead of a damage like all the T1 minmatar combat ship OR its fitting stats adjusted to resemble the stats of the other rebalanced ships |
Alara IonStorm
2667
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 15:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
To mare wrote: well many of those advantages are rather useless in what is a T1 frig fight the 90% of the time.
Lol
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Cpt Branko
Zawa's Fan Club
22
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Posted - 2012.07.17 15:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Don't use the Rifter for T1 frig fighting; it's only real advantages come to play vs larger ships which you cannot kill unless they are very new and inexperienced anyway. If you can maybe make some arty fit, but idk, I've tried that only once in my eve time.
For maybe a gang attacking larger ships then yes Rifter is still a very good choice with some advantages over other t1 frigs. |
ABRACADABSTRACTART
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2012.07.17 16:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Major Killz wrote:Tl,dr
I have no interest in whether things are or not balanced (don't care). I'm interested in setups by those who have adapted to these new changes. Nothing more nothing less. Everything else is meh! This is about setups...
So post those setups gentlemen.
- end of transmission No need to be an ass. he was responding to a know-it-all. you have to be firm with those kind of people. just like you have to tell people who appoint themselves thread monitor to STFU. why did you even bother posting? STFU |
Ezra Tair
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
70
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 20:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
I've not tried it yet, but, for fighting the new frigs, here you go:
Quote: [Rifter, Rifter fit]
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Experimental Energized Thermic Membrane I Experimental Energized Kinetic Membrane I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S [Empty High slot]
Small Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Tracking Diagnostic Subroutines I
The entire idea being that the spiffy new ships do not have any tracking bonuses while the rifter does, and can still do 1k/s with a plate. In addition, TDs are almost always useful, so your not 'wasting' a slot. |
Traejun DiSanctis
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 20:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Friendly reminder - the new Slasher, Atron, Condor, and Executioner are rolling out soon. They all have 10 slots and a 80% less cap useage on points role bonus. The tormentor is also being upgraded to three turret slots.
Awesome...
And, I guess I'll be rolling out the old Executioner again soon. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
47
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 20:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ezra Tair wrote:I've not tried it yet, but, for fighting the new frigs, here you go: Quote: [Rifter, Rifter fit]
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Experimental Energized Thermic Membrane I Experimental Energized Kinetic Membrane I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S [Empty High slot]
Small Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Tracking Diagnostic Subroutines I
The entire idea being that the spiffy new ships do not have any tracking bonuses while the rifter does, and can still do 1k/s with a plate. In addition, TDs are almost always useful, so your not 'wasting' a slot.
Well thanks! From the lack of setups been thrown out. It seems the Rifter isn't even on par with some of the newly changed frigates anymore. There aren't much setups left for the Rifter that are effective vers these frigates.
I do know the shield setup I posted is effective when used against a dual armor repair Incursus. Otherwise, good luck! I'm going start flying the Rifter with this character to come to a solid conclusion. |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
201
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 20:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rifter is still fine as winmatar ships tend to be. The only change is that its no longer the best in every role, hooray for diversity and possibility to fly something else then just rifters.
Waiting for the next round of rebalanced ships so much ... Most of the ships ingame are so terribad they aint worth touching at all. Diversity in ship and role choises ... its really really good ! |
Traejun DiSanctis
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 20:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:Ezra Tair wrote:I've not tried it yet, but, for fighting the new frigs, here you go: Quote: [Rifter, Rifter fit]
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Experimental Energized Thermic Membrane I Experimental Energized Kinetic Membrane I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S [Empty High slot]
Small Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Tracking Diagnostic Subroutines I
The entire idea being that the spiffy new ships do not have any tracking bonuses while the rifter does, and can still do 1k/s with a plate. In addition, TDs are almost always useful, so your not 'wasting' a slot. Well thanks! From the lack of setups been thrown out. It seems the Rifter isn't even on par with some of the newly changed frigates anymore. There aren't much setups left for the Rifter that are effective vers these frigates. I do know the shield setup I posted is effective when used against a dual armor repair Incursus. Otherwise, good luck! I'm going start flying the Rifter with this character to come to a solid conclusion.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Rifter. 3x 200mm AC II + Vamp/Neut, MWD and either shield or armor tanked. I've been flying a SASB fitted Rifter lately. Working fairly well.
Although I will openly admit that my Merlin is better now. A few months ago, my Rifter was my primary. |
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Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 21:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Major Killz wrote:Tl,dr
I have no interest in whether things are or not balanced (don't care). I'm interested in setups by those who have adapted to these new changes. Nothing more nothing less. Everything else is meh! This is about setups...
So post those setups gentlemen.
- end of transmission No need to be an ass.
He's quite right. Posting something like "if you know how to fly -X- you'll always win" is about as helpful as a hangnail. You think you "know how to fly" something? Prove it, and educate those that don't/don't think they can. |
Alara IonStorm
2671
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 21:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote: He's quite right. Posting something like "if you know how to fly -X- you'll always win" is about as helpful as a hangnail. You think you "know how to fly" something? Prove it, and educate those that don't/don't think they can.
I never posted "if you know how to fly -X- you'll always win" at all. He asked if the ship was terrible and it isn't. The other ships can best it in a 1v1 most of the time but they all have weaknesses and the Rifter is good in other area's. The fits the OP posted are very similar to my own preferred Rifter fits. The guy obviously know how to fit a Rifter but wondered if it was terrible so I mentioned the other applications the ship is useful for and the advantages it has.
I mentioned tactics that with his fits help such as kiting blasters short range guns inside there webs and taking advantage of lasers poor tracking. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
47
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 22:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
There was nothing malicious behind my response to Alara IonStorm. I just had no interest in broader issues. Which was in Alara IonStorm's post. Didn't want this thread to turn into one of those. I wanted solutions players could put in effect threw fittings and not possible changes applied by CCP.
So I was interested in out of the box setups or setups that are still viable.
In anycase. Clearly there's not much out there in terms of viable setups left for the Rifter. @tleast versus the Punisher, Incursus and Merlin.
The argument around the response of both pilots is a strange one. Considering we did no escalate into harsh words...
- end of transmission |
Alara IonStorm
2672
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 22:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:There was nothing malicious behind my response to Alara IonStorm. I just had no interest in broader issues. Which was in Alara IonStorm's post. Didn't want this thread to turn into one of those.
The argument around the response of both pilots is a strange one. Considering we did no escalate into harsh words...
I know I sometimes come off as being a smartass or worse condescending but I was really trying to help. Sorry it threw your thread off topic. I didn't think your posts was malicious and don't like forum slap fights either. I especially think harsh words are kiddish and try to avoid them when possible.
I've had some effective tactics used against me one being a particular TD fit that but it requires being AB fit.
[Rifter, TD] 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
1MN Afterburner II Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script Warp Scrambler II
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S [empty high slot]
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I Small Projectile Ambit Extension I Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Using an AB to counteract there web and a TD to cut there range. Armor Rigs just lets them close on you do to speed though.
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Roosterton
Eternal Frontier The-Machine
357
|
Posted - 2012.07.17 23:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
The rifter has versatility on its side. It has the speed and range flexibility to control a fight, kite, or disengage as necessary. It can also fit a nos, which makes it suitable for engaging things larger than frigates. Nobody really knows what to expect out of it.
It's the best frigate if you're blindly roaming and don't know what you might engage. You can adapt to different situations. Fighting a cruiser? Orbit close, NOS, shoot drones. Fighting an incursus? Load barrage, web, kite at the edge of scram range. Fighting a Punisher? Get close and use your superior tracking to your advantage.
It's not excellent at any one role, but that's a fair price to pay for being able to perform every role. |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
17
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Posted - 2012.07.17 23:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:The rifter has versatility on its side. It has the speed and range flexibility to control a fight, kite, or disengage as necessary. It can also fit a nos, which makes it suitable for engaging things larger than frigates. Nobody really knows what to expect out of it.
It's the best frigate if you're blindly roaming and don't know what you might engage. You can adapt to different situations. Fighting a cruiser? Orbit close, NOS, shoot drones. Fighting an incursus? Load barrage, web, kite at the edge of scram range. Fighting a Punisher? Get close and use your superior tracking to your advantage.
It's not excellent at any one role, but that's a fair price to pay for being able to perform every role.
This. Even with the Rifter not being the 'best' at every role around now, it still stands as arguably the most versatile, and one of the few that is capable with multiple fits (brawler, sniper, etc). I don't see it going away as the top used frigate in pvp, but I love the idea of seeing more of the others appearing on the field and being a viable threat! |
Arnst Atram
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 06:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:The rifter has versatility on its side. It has the speed and range flexibility to control a fight, kite, or disengage as necessary. It can also fit a nos, which makes it suitable for engaging things larger than frigates. Nobody really knows what to expect out of it.
It's the best frigate if you're blindly roaming and don't know what you might engage. You can adapt to different situations. Fighting a cruiser? Orbit close, NOS, shoot drones. Fighting an incursus? Load barrage, web, kite at the edge of scram range. Fighting a Punisher? Get close and use your superior tracking to your advantage.
It's not excellent at any one role, but that's a fair price to pay for being able to perform every role.
While the Rifter is slightly faster when both are AB fit, i can fit a Long Point on an Incursus alongside a MWD without downgrading my Guns. It's fair to say an Incursus can dictate range in neutral circumstances. If the Rifter pilot gets the drop, sure, but this is basically EFTWarrioring.
That aside i haven't had too much trouble hitting targets at 9km with Void anyway, plus the Drone is worth its weight in Gold for an Incursus.
A Rifter can do it, it's just that aside from maintaining point under Cap pressure (A role soon to be taken over by other Frigates), everything a Rifter can do a Merlin or Incursus does it better. |
Mike Whiite
Keystone Industrial
60
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 07:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rifter was and still is the Drake of Frigates, anyone can fly one, fit one, it might not be the best but because it flies so easy and can do so many things and looks cool as well. It is still a very good ship.
Even before the reballance the Rifter wasn't the best frigate, but the easiest to put someone in. |
Major Killz
Chaotic Tranquility
50
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 12:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Well, I have no Merlin setup that can defeat a dual armor repair Incursus; I do have a Rifter setup that can. Once someone starts flying a Incursus with a 200mm plate, armor repair + Neutron blasters things become difficult...
I do believe the Rifter isn't far from the Incursus in terms of effectiveness.
I don't even like the Incursus anymore. I've engaged a few Thrashers with it on purpose, just to see what's possible. Doesn't take much capacitor warfare to ruin an incursus and while I can run 1 armor repair while being effected by a neutralizer. It's not enough. The Incursus range with Ions is also pretty terrible. Mind you I have never used a setup only geared towards defense with no damage modules like the one below. I've been told it can tank a Thrashers damage with 1 armor repair if the Thrasher is using explosive damage.
Incursus Small Armor Repairer II Small Armor Repairer II Damage Control II Prototype Armor Explosive Hardener I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 25
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I Small Nanobot Accelerator I
So, tier 4 frigates seem to be balanced with one another. One of these ships can defeat another ships optimum setup.
- end of transmission |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier The-Machine
357
|
Posted - 2012.07.18 16:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Quote:While the Rifter is slightly faster when both are AB fit, i can fit a Long Point on an Incursus alongside a MWD without downgrading my Guns. It's fair to say an Incursus can dictate range in neutral circumstances. If the Rifter pilot gets the drop, sure, but this is basically EFTWarrioring.
That aside i haven't had too much trouble hitting targets at 9km with Void anyway, assuming i fit a TE, which i usually do, plus the Drone is worth its weight in Gold for an Incursus. (Edit: i just realized i also fit an Optimal Rig, since it's all that was available.)
Of course if you fit your ship specifically to counter a rifter, you're going to beat a rifter. What if the rifter fitted artillery, MWD, and a longpoint, kiting at 20km? You're slow enough that you can't catch it in your incursus, and good luck hitting 20k with blasters. Of course, if you fit specifically with rails to counter such as a setup, you might survive.
We could go on in endless circles, but the fact is that the rifter's versatility makes it very unlikely that your setup is going to be the perfect counter to whatever the rifter is using. Maybe you always fit a TE and an optimal rig, but that doesn't make it a standard incursus, nor does it mean that every rifter is going to try kiting you at the edge of scram range. |
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