Originally by: 000Hunter000

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When i started playing, the best miningship was a battleship followed by the Osprey... There were only regular type ores (no rich plags or massive scords or any of that nonsense.)

Now lets move forward in time!

We now have T2 barges, orca's and rorquals, mining implants and skills and all sorts of new mods...

Saying ccp has done nothing for miners is... well... not true!

Only point u have is the macro/sweatshopmining thing... but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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Originally by: Skippermonkey

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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So you are telling me the American way of giving everyone guns isnt working?

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Originally by: Skippermonkey

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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So you are telling me the American way of giving everyone guns isnt working?

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Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium

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Originally by: Skippermonkey

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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So you are telling me the American way of giving everyone guns isnt working?

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Hey, hey, HEY! I take offense at that. We do not give people weapons. We sell them, or trade them for combat actions we would like to see happen. Nothing is for free in this world, certainly not American weapon systems. That's just communism, what you're talking about.

Anyway, the only real problem in mining is the macro problem, all this talk of CCP doing nothing for miners just isn't true. Quite frankly, I don't like the suggestion of making it more interesting, I mine to relax and zone out as much as that is possible in EVE when you aren't docked. I don't need a whole lot of bells and whistles, I certainly don't need things needlessly complicated with busy work so the ADD crowed can keep their attention focused for more than a minute.

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Originally by: Zeet A'Dron

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The actual process of mining has not changed. None of the nuiances differ. I mean not a single new ore type, no attempts to tweak time spent vs rewards reaped for this subgroup.

[...]

In fact it could be argued the average miner was put to further disadvantage with Dominion because now they have to scan down their grav sites in 00.

[...]

I think you should consider adding on to the existing mining paradigm. I suggest the changes would allow the existing system to stay in place while adding new bonus and benefits through some type of new interactive mining process.

[...]

We did get the orca and leadership stuff which is indeed a leg up.

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Originally by: Abdiel Kavash

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Originally by: Zeet A'Dron

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The actual process of mining has not changed. None of the nuiances differ. I mean not a single new ore type, no attempts to tweak time spent vs rewards reaped for this subgroup.

[...]

In fact it could be argued the average miner was put to further disadvantage with Dominion because now they have to scan down their grav sites in 00.

[...]

I think you should consider adding on to the existing mining paradigm. I suggest the changes would allow the existing system to stay in place while adding new bonus and benefits through some type of new interactive mining process.

[...]

We did get the orca and leadership stuff which is indeed a leg up.

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So, let me get this straight: you beg CCP to add new mechanics to mining, and in the same post you complain about two relatively new mechanics CCP added to mining? Yeah, right.

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Originally by: Halcyon Ingenium

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That's just communism, what you're talking about

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Originally by: Camios

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But no human (except nerdy people) will mine for hours alone.

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Originally by: Karosaki

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Sadly fighting macro miners and other bots is a very difficult problem, and if it was possible to reliably distinguish between the bots and people without seriously ****ing off the players CCP would have done it already.

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Originally by: Legs Mackenzie

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I like the pun though.

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Quote:

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EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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Originally by: Entrepaz

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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THIS. Go post in CSM!!!

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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OP:

Do you want mining to be

(i) difficult, dangerous and competitive --> well paid
(ii) safe, easy, and ore widely available -> poorly paid
(iii)safe, easy, and ore widely available -> well paid

At the moment we're in state (ii). State (i) is conceptually possible. There is no chance of state (iii) - it is now impossible.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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OP:

Do you want mining to be

(i) difficult, dangerous and competitive --> well paid
(ii) safe, easy, and ore widely available -> poorly paid
(iii)safe, easy, and ore widely available -> well paid

At the moment we're in state (ii). State (i) is conceptually possible. There is no chance of state (iii) - it is now impossible.

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Originally by: Abrazzar

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Unless they are working on something right now, you will probably have to wait a minimum of one year for anything being done directly with mining. More likely 2-5 years. It's been almost 2 years since this thread, which pretty much is why I have given up on it.

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Originally by: Legs Mackenzie

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I like the pun though.

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Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts

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I like how people who have no experience automating tasks with macro scripting software come up with ideas to 'make it harder' for the macro guys. The only problem is that the changes only make it harder for a very short period of time, and once the macros are re-written everything is back to where it was before. So the only real way to thwart the macros is to completely change the whole system every couple weeks, and I seriously doubt that is going to happen.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.

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Originally by: Lost Greybeard

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Capcha it.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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When i started playing, the best miningship was a battleship followed by the Osprey... There were only regular type ores (no rich plags or massive scords or any of that nonsense.)

Now lets move forward in time!

We now have T2 barges, orca's and rorquals, mining implants and skills and all sorts of new mods...

Saying ccp has done nothing for miners is... well... not true!

Only point u have is the macro/sweatshopmining thing... but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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Originally by: northwesten

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Well said and I don't see the problem with mining. I been doing it here and there since 2004. I guess people really want the easy game like WoW.

I think people need to STFU when it doesn't need fixing.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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Originally by: Exploding Tukey

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This is stupid, the servers have enough to try to process, and when you have to take collision detection of asteroids into question... well we are stuck with another blob issue.

not like this really helps macro miners, set asteroid on follow, turn on small shield rep, and set all ships/tractor ships to follow that asteroid. switch asteroid once one is depleted.

this also make hiding in asteroid fields harder when being chased, as well as making mining, a basic profession require a few mil SP before it can even be tries, requiring a complete rewrite of the tutorial, forcing players to go into the pve path before they can even get to mining.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

---

Quote:

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5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.

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Originally by: Decimus Octavius

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Edited by: Decimus Octavius on 22/06/2010 15:21:41

Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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lol sorry but these suggestions are seriously lame and i wonder if you actually mine at all. Seems like your way to fix mining is to just make it really tedious and painful rather than boring. Anyway i cbf pulling ur suggestions to bits so ill just pick on the one you marked as IMPORTANT:

Quote:

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5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.

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Yes my 100mn mwd stabber would have a riot bumping barges into asteroids n watch them explode. Im sure the miners would love it to.

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Originally by: price checkinho

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i thought this was going to be a whine thread about ore price. they tried to fix the ore prices but failed hard.

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Quote:

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Which means my orca pilot is going to be a waste of several months time and half a bil isk, or rather not a waste, but a ****ty investment.

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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Originally by: Tippia

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Originally by: price checkinho

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i thought this was going to be a whine thread about ore price. they tried to fix the ore prices but failed hard.

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They are fixed ù but "fixed" does not mean "more income for miners".

Quote:

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Which means my orca pilot is going to be a waste of several months time and half a bil isk, or rather not a waste, but a ****ty investment.

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Oh I don't know. You still get the best anti-gank transport in the game.

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Originally by: Celestine Santora

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Originally by: Ranger 1

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Edited by: Ranger 1 on 21/06/2010 16:17:29
I know a lot of people like to zone out while mining, but honestly that may have to go if we are ever going to see an end to massive macro mining gangs.

The following should be considered for a mining revamp.

1: All belts should have to be scanned out.
2: Asteroids should not be easily identifiable on the overview. They should have to be survey scanned to determine their exact type or visually identifiable as to what general type they are.
3: Asteroid belts should drift at a slow but contant speed (some faster than others), perhaps orbiting around a central large asteroid. Ships should have to follow/change position to stay within mining range. The enhanced range of tractor beams becomes more important on certain vessels.
4: Mining lasers with the highest yield should have the shortest range.
5: Important: Collision with an asteroid should cause serious damage to a ship, depending on the size of the asteroid and the ship. Ship destruction should be a distint possibility if the pilot is not paying enough attention to keep his ship out of the path of slowly drifting asteriods.
6: Drifting/orbiting asteroids should occasionally collide, changing their path. Perhaps even flying away from the belt and dissappearing when they finally get off grid.

These steps should complicate matters for macro miners as well as make mining a moderately challenging mini-game. (Yes, there is a resemblance to the classic "Asteroids" game.) However, it would not be a recommended occupation for the "watch vid's on the second monitor" crowd.

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I like all of these ideas except 5. Collision mechanics are so laughably bad in EVE that the last thing I would like to see is the ability for my ship to die based on what the EVE server thinks is me hitting something.

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Originally by: Skippermonkey

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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So you are telling me the American way of giving everyone guns isnt working?

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Originally by: Karosaki

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Sadly fighting macro miners and other bots is a very difficult problem, and if it was possible to reliably distinguish between the bots and people without seriously ****ing off the players CCP would have done it already.

As for mining profession getting shafted, I really don't understand what you mean. If you enjoy mining why not continue doing it? It's not like you are actually loosing isk while doing so. I don't feel that mining is being neglected by CCP. I mean recently you got wormhole mining and null sec anomalies. Mining on planets is completely new minigame thats just a few weeks old.

If you don't like the income you receive while mining thats a different story. If CCP adds something the increase yields then everyone will be doing it and the mineral prices will just drop even more.

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Originally by: Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts

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I like how people who have no experience automating tasks with macro scripting software come up with ideas to 'make it harder' for the macro guys. The only problem is that the changes only make it harder for a very short period of time, and once the macros are re-written everything is back to where it was before. So the only real way to thwart the macros is to completely change the whole system every couple weeks, and I seriously doubt that is going to happen.

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Originally by: Legs Mackenzie

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I like the pun though.

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Originally by: Zeet A'Dron

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I'm one of those weird people that likes to mine. Something about playing with pretend widgets balances me mentally after a day of craziness. There are a lot of reasons to like eve, but I started because the industry stuff showed promise. I'm the kinda guy that picked up UO , walked out into the woods and cut down my own bows, gutted my own chicken for feathers and assembled the first step to my financial victory in the backwoods of Yew.

I'd like to thank CCP for recent changes to mission loot to give the miner a step up but really your track record on doing anything for this 'sphere' in Eve is deplorable. Don't get me wrong, I love you but i give you a big WTF when it comes to mining.

Lets review:

Nothing really done to sort out macro miners so the real ones get the shaft since 2004 for me.

The actual process of mining has not changed. None of the nuiances differ. I mean not a single new ore type, no attempts to tweak time spent vs rewards reaped for this subgroup. If you played EQ2 crafting you could come up with all kinds of ideas. Just interchange the fantasy graphics and replace the word "progress" with "ore extraction rate" and durability with "chance my mining laser array is going to blow up" and you've made a new mini game.

In fact it could be argued the average miner was put to further disadvantage with Dominion because now they have to scan down their grav sites in 00. Is this a big deal? Not for most 00 miners. Of course we mine in groups a lot in 00 but its still the principal of the matter.

Every other major system in Eve has either been appended after mining or has otherwise seen at least some overhaul since except for tradegoods.....oh wait.


I think you should consider adding on to the existing mining paradigm. I suggest the changes would allow the existing system to stay in place while adding new bonus and benefits through some type of new interactive mining process (again, akin to Eq2).


We did get the orca and leadership stuff which is indeed a leg up. But if you follow the current way ore enters into the game world it comes from two sources:

macro miners and the guy who gets screwed over because of crappy mineral prices.


Now, I could stop mining and go do PI --- or maybe even play another game, but if there was any indication from CCP in the next few months that this would be fixed you'd be pushing 60-70k pcu np.

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Originally by: Flyinghotpocket

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Add some faction mining barges. Create a "Mining Tournament" the team who mines the most in 1 day gets the super l33t new mining barge.

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Originally by: Furb Killer

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Edited by: Furb Killer on 21/06/2010 12:29:25
Be careful what you wish for.

Before you know it CCP introduces a new mining system that is a 'framework' and will be (lol) expanded in later iterations.



I think mining needs a total revamp, something like where you need to fly through large asteroid belt (nothing comparable to current belts, and they would need to fix the crappy bumping radius of most roids), and scan for useful asteroids, which could just be survey scanner, and then when you find a potential interesting asteroid you do a more precise scan and specificly target ore deposits of the rock.

Ah well just fantasizing a bit.

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Originally by: Skippermonkey

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Originally by: 000Hunter000

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but finding an answer for that seems to be as illusive as finding a solution for world peace

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So you are telling me the American way of giving everyone guns isnt working?

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Originally by: Grandpa Dragonbone

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I for one enjoy mining as it is. I have a very stressful career IRL and I like that i can sit there and semi-veg. I can chat with friends, surf the web, kill a few rats and I can do this for hours. I don't do missions (I have done any in months) I don't do manufacturing or any of the many other aspects of this game.

My two year olf daughter loves to come sit on my lap and stare at the screen and bang on my keyboard while im mining. It one of the most relaxing things I have ever been able to do while still "gaming." I have played Anarchy Online, Everquest, everquest 2. wow, aion, doac and the list goes on and on... minin in Eve is the best gaming experience I can have in my full and stressful life.

I appreciate the Origional Posters views and I think there should be other mining options for those who want more, but I only hope that it doesn't change the game for those of us that like current roid fields as they exist now.

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