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Diosas
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Posted - 2010.06.25 08:40:00 -
[1]
Ok i am all for cloakies, and covert ops and recons etc but its becoming a bit ridiculous that gangs of ships can camp systems for long periods of time and be pretty much invunerable, and combined these gangs can be formiddable even when uncloaked!
So lets say you have a rapier, pilgrim, stealth bomber, Arazu all nice cloaked specialise ships, but also have some serious teeth, especially when used to together. Now again Im not concerned about these ships, the point is as mentioned above.
Now something has to be done about being able to probe down where these are, Im not saying make it easy but perhaps have another skill, perhaps 'Covert Probing', you need max probing skills also maybe, and perhaps a specialised covert/recon probing ship.
But damn do something this is not on, that nothing can be done about gangs like this.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.25 08:47:00 -
[2]
So your idea is basically to make stealth ships not.
Do I even have to point out why this is a bad idea?
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zwesypfahl
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Posted - 2010.06.25 09:22:00 -
[3]
i say no. sure stealth bombers are strong. but they do insta pop.
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Madner Kami
Gallente Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
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Posted - 2010.06.25 09:36:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Madner Kami on 25/06/2010 09:37:22
Originally by: Diosas [...] Im not saying make it easy but perhaps have another skill, perhaps 'Covert Probing', you need max probing skills also maybe, and perhaps a specialised covert/recon probing ship. [...]
Let me translate: "I'm not saying make it easy, but let it be done by a single skill with high prerequistes and a specialized ship." Are you serious? How is that not "easy"? How much more easy can it become, if there ever were such a thing implemented (which hopefully never ever happens)?
Furthermore, probing down cloaked ships, is completely negating anything what the cloak is usefull for: Staying off the scan-reports. Deal with it.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.06.25 09:44:00 -
[5]
dont fix what aint broken.
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Diosas
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Posted - 2010.06.25 10:45:00 -
[6]
lol thanks for the wall of comments from cloak ship pilots...funny... this is why i love debates like this, because no one puts there thinkinh head on....
So i guess its ok that a system(s) can be entirely locked down by quite a formiddable gang of ships as mentioned before and theres not a damn thing you can do about it...seriously think about stuff before you post...
Now to the chap above, it wouldnt be a single skill now would it... 1 skill for being able to probe cloaked ships 1 skill for the actual ship (which may have prereqs) Then you must have all the other probing type skills, astro etc to lvl 5. So please tell me HOW THE HELL IS THAT EASY!!!
Stop taking out of that bum hole...thats quite training you have to complete...so like any specialised training, each type of ship MUST have a counter in some way and this forces that counter, but you have to specialise in it.
I think cloak ships should give off some sort of signature that can only be detectable by specialised probes, and again combined with high skills and the right specialised ship...
Dont start crying because I propose away for you to be probed out and you cant sit there cloaked and not actually work for your kills...oh sorry you just want it easy..forgive me sorry...tsk
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Lord Cath
Amarr Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2010.06.25 10:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Diosas drivle
player a = "I'd like CCP to give us a hisec doomsday device" player b = "that would be just rediculous" player a = "WAAAAAAAAAH !!1!1!! elevenone !!1!1 URE NOT PUTTING YOUR THINKINH HEAD ON !!1!1!"
Take that, Cicero... __________________________________________________
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.06.25 11:15:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Diosas lol thanks for the wall of comments from cloak ship pilots...funny... this is why i love debates like this, because no one puts there thinkinh head on....
So i guess its ok that a system(s) can be entirely locked down by quite a formiddable gang of ships as mentioned before and theres not a damn thing you can do about it...seriously think about stuff before you post...
Now to the chap above, it wouldnt be a single skill now would it... 1 skill for being able to probe cloaked ships 1 skill for the actual ship (which may have prereqs) Then you must have all the other probing type skills, astro etc to lvl 5. So please tell me HOW THE HELL IS THAT EASY!!!
Stop taking out of that bum hole...thats quite training you have to complete...so like any specialised training, each type of ship MUST have a counter in some way and this forces that counter, but you have to specialise in it.
I think cloak ships should give off some sort of signature that can only be detectable by specialised probes, and again combined with high skills and the right specialised ship...
Dont start crying because I propose away for you to be probed out and you cant sit there cloaked and not actually work for your kills...oh sorry you just want it easy..forgive me sorry...tsk
while you are at it, please add some skills for: - getting people out of the station/outposts when ever i want a kill - disabling the pos shields when ever i want a kill.
then we dont have to cloak for so long until you finally grew some balls to undock/leave the pos shield.
If you are so afraid of cloaked people ... ever thought to adapt your style of playing a bit to be a less easy prey? rat in combat fit ships (yes it really works), rat in groups of 2-3, guard your mining ops. But i guess it is easier to ask for a nerf of others before adapting?
adapt or die - pick a side.
p.s.: i wouldnt worry so much about AFK cloaker. I would worry about the guys who are not AFK.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.25 11:20:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 25/06/2010 11:21:32 You're going to get flamed to high hell, Diosas, but just for you I'm actually going to try and work my way through your post and point out where the primary fallacies lie.
Originally by: Diosas So i guess its ok that a system(s) can be entirely locked down by quite a formiddable gang of ships as mentioned before and theres not a damn thing you can do about it...
What do cloaks have to do with ships "locking you down"? What you're suggesting is a way to hunt out hiding cloaked ships. The ships that hunt YOU are going to be constantly moving. You're only going to be able to probe a ship that's sitting passively somewhere or other doing basically nothing.
Originally by: Diosas Dont start crying because I propose away for you to be probed out and you cant sit there cloaked and not actually work for your kills...oh sorry you just want it easy..forgive me sorry...tsk
I'm trying to picture the scenario in which probing would prevent a cloaked ship from getting "cheap kills". How exactly do you envision this working?
A cloaked ship has two advantages: One, the ability to hide, and two, the element of surprise. Hiding is not an aggressive action, it's an evasive one, so there's no real way to "get cheap kills" by hiding. So let's concentrate on the element of surprise.
The element of surprise comes from when you're doing something or other and suddenly a ship decloaks out of nowhere and locks you down before you know what's going on. Whatever you think of this, probing wouldn't help; If a ship is actively stalking you, you're not going to have time to lock him down and probe the bastard out, he's going to be right on top of you before you can even get a general idea of where he is.
Advice:
Don't post an idea when you've just been killed. There's a natural desire to want revenge, but trying to get meta and change the system around your opponents is not the way to do it.
If you're looking for a mercenary corp, I hear good things about The Nintendo Generation or some such.
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David Grogan
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.25 11:47:00 -
[10]
cloaks are fine... dont break it SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P |
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.25 12:02:00 -
[11]
Cloakies are supposed to have ZERO risk to themselves and provide all the risk to non-cloakies, mining ships, PVE ships, etc. It's what this game is all about, risk (to PVEers) versus rewards (for the cloakies). So no.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.06.25 14:19:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Diosas Its Time To Make Cloaked Ships Probable - Somehow!!
This was the part where your post started being wrong. Everything after that was auto-fail because it was based on your false initial hypothesis.
Cloaked ships are fine. --Vel
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.06.25 15:02:00 -
[13]
In before AFK Cloaker.
Also, no.
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Hatsumi Kobayashi
D00M. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.06.25 16:40:00 -
[14]
The only reason I'd ever want cloaked ships to be found with a probing system would be for people to stop making threads about it.
But I don't think it's worth it. _____
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Grarr Dexx
Amarr GK inc.
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Posted - 2010.06.25 16:46:00 -
[15]
So if anyone can find a cloaker... Why would you want to bother with cloaking then?
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Illrean
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Posted - 2010.06.25 16:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx So if anyone can find a cloaker... Why would you want to bother with cloaking then?
I believe most people want it so that yes, anyone CAN find a cloaker.. who has been sitting AFK for the past hour/s. EVE is NOT a safe game, what makes you think you can sit there in your cloak ship for five hours in spot and be safe?
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.06.25 17:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Illrean EVE is NOT a safe game, what makes you think you can sit there in your cloak ship for five hours in spot and be safe?
My cloak? |
Illrean
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Posted - 2010.06.25 17:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Originally by: Illrean EVE is NOT a safe game, what makes you think you can sit there in your cloak ship for five hours in spot and be safe?
My cloak?
As has been said to every person when they complain about getting blown up, there are only two safe places in EVE. Docked at an NPC station and logged out.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Xenogenesis Alliance
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Posted - 2010.06.25 17:57:00 -
[19]
epic fail OP ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.06.25 18:03:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Black Dranzer on 25/06/2010 18:05:16
Originally by: Illrean As has been said to every person when they complain about getting blown up, there are only two safe places in EVE. Docked at an NPC station and logged out.
And cloaked.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2010.06.25 18:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Illrean
Originally by: Jack Icegaard
Originally by: Illrean EVE is NOT a safe game, what makes you think you can sit there in your cloak ship for five hours in spot and be safe?
My cloak?
As has been said to every person when they complain about getting blown up, there are only two safe places in EVE. Docked at an NPC station and logged out.
Yeah, but you know the old saying: ôAs long as thy don't try to interact with anybody else nor with the environment, the cloak will keep you safeö -Sun Tzu, art of war
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.06.25 19:10:00 -
[22]
Cloaker ships: The only ship class in Eve that comes with a built-in PVP flag. See a target you can overpower and take on? Switch that PVP flag on and gank at will. Can't take on the target? Easy, just keep the PVP flag turned off (ie stay cloaked).
Eve, a cruel and harsh universe... Except for cloakies.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Komi Toran
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Posted - 2010.06.25 19:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Diosas Now something has to be done about being able to probe down where these are, Im not saying make it easy but perhaps have another skill, perhaps 'Covert Probing', you need max probing skills also maybe, and perhaps a specialised covert/recon probing ship.
Here's the thing: once it becomes possible, it will become common. Once it becomes common, cloaked ships will become useless.
I'm ok with the idea of some form of nerf to cloaking, but making cloaks detectable is not it. Increase the decloak radius, give cloaks an inertial penalty, hell, make it so you can't cloak with an aggression timer. These ideas don't destroy cloaking, but to varying degrees they increase the risks to cloakers while they are on the same grid with others.
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Diosas
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Posted - 2010.06.26 10:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Komi Toran
Originally by: Diosas Now something has to be done about being able to probe down where these are, Im not saying make it easy but perhaps have another skill, perhaps 'Covert Probing', you need max probing skills also maybe, and perhaps a specialised covert/recon probing ship.
Here's the thing: once it becomes possible, it will become common. Once it becomes common, cloaked ships will become useless.
I'm ok with the idea of some form of nerf to cloaking, but making cloaks detectable is not it. Increase the decloak radius, give cloaks an inertial penalty, hell, make it so you can't cloak with an aggression timer. These ideas don't destroy cloaking, but to varying degrees they increase the risks to cloakers while they are on the same grid with others.
Yes agreed, and points taken about ships moving about, tnats common. But seriously something needs to be done. I wouldnt mind if they were quite harmless ships but they are quite decent pvp ships also. Having a specilised cloaked gang is as state formiddable, Arazu, Rapier, Stealh Bomber, Covert Ops, etc all with specialities that in a gang is quite crazy. Ewar, Webs, Drones, Bombs and on top of that they can cloak sit in systems for hours and just pop up whenever, also they are fast ships!! jesus what more do you want.. you got almost complete invulnerability and firepower and undetectable...
On their own fair enough they arent that much of a problem but a small gang as shown well your pretty screwed and there is nothing you can do about it...Awesome sandbox game....I believe everything should have some counter and cloakies have none at all!
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2010.06.26 14:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Diosas its becoming a bit ridiculous that gangs of ships can camp systems for long periods of time and be pretty much invunerable
The moment they want to do something other than staying cloaked, they become vulnerable. You can't do much within stations either -- but you're not going to complain about ships in stations, are you?
Another misconception wrongly associated to cloaking is to talk about situations where a gang of cloaked ships is the opponent of single ships. You can not really blame getting outnumbered on cloaking. Getting outnumbered is always a strategic fail or mistake, not really caused by the cloaked ships' existence. Know your enemies or get killed. It's as easy as that.
If you'd compare opposing fleets with equal number of ships, one side cloaking, one not, the cloaking ones might have the element of surprise, but there might be one extra gun or launcher per ship on the other side. How unfair is that!
On top of all: If you claim dominance in a system and don't manage to uncloak at least one opponent ship within a fleet of plenty of cloaking ships: There goes your dominance. Space is not your space if you can not control it. You always can train covert ops yourself, btw. You can spy on covert ships uncloaking here or there. Game rules should not support lazyness.
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Syekuda
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.06.26 14:37:00 -
[26]
There's some tactics you can use to kill them but you have to be experienced and have some luck.
One of them is the log on trap. If you can scramble one or 2, just give the go to your log on buddies and have fun killing them. You will see the river of tears flowing. Something like "F U logon trap...your cheating blah blah blah"
hehe. Of course thats only the basics but you get the idea. Sometimes it works other times it doesn't. In anycase if they don't want to fight, move on.
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Komi Toran
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Posted - 2010.06.27 14:54:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lederstrumpf The moment they want to do something other than staying cloaked, they become vulnerable. You can't do much within stations either -- but you're not going to complain about ships in stations, are you?
Because people docked up in stations must leave through the undock point, making them easy to detect and intercept when they become active. Compare with cloakers, who can be anywhere in a system and become active without warning.
Originally by: Lederstrumpf Another misconception wrongly associated to cloaking is to talk about situations where a gang of cloaked ships is the opponent of single ships. You can not really blame getting outnumbered on cloaking. Getting outnumbered is always a strategic fail or mistake, not really caused by the cloaked ships' existence. Know your enemies or get killed. It's as easy as that.
No, it's not. As cloakers have a massive advantage when it comes to knowing what the opponent has. Cloakers can be active or afk without anyone knowing the difference. Cloakers can also use covert-cynos, instantly injecting an unknown quantity of reinforcements.
Originally by: Lederstrumpf If you'd compare opposing fleets with equal number of ships, one side cloaking, one not, the cloaking ones might have the element of surprise, but there might be one extra gun or launcher per ship on the other side. How unfair is that!
Utterly ridiculous, as cloakers are the ones who dictate engagements. Get a force that can kill them, and they won't engage. That's a problem, as it puts an undue burden on defenders, who must be organized and alert 23/7 to counter them, while cloakers can be in system and asleep with no penalty.
Originally by: Lederstrumpf On top of all: If you claim dominance in a system and don't manage to uncloak at least one opponent ship within a fleet of plenty of cloaking ships: There goes your dominance. Space is not your space if you can not control it. You always can train covert ops yourself, btw. You can spy on covert ships uncloaking here or there. Game rules should not support lazyness.
Who sends a fleet of cloakers through a gate anymore? How does training cloaking counter cloaking? Seriously, do you even play the game?
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arbiter reformed
Minmatar Reverse Psychology. HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.06.27 14:57:00 -
[28]
cloaks needing fuel is a better idea
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Smiling Menace
Gallente Crimson Paradox
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Posted - 2010.06.27 17:01:00 -
[29]
Cloaks are fine the way they are.
As has previously been said, make them probeable (is that even a word?!?) or nerf them in any other way and all you have is another class of ship that's worthless and won't be used.
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Sun'Tzu Yin
Gallente Wreckage Reclamation Enforcement Consortium Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
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Posted - 2010.06.27 19:59:00 -
[30]
OMG, no! It's the invasion of the invisible paper ships. Let me get my thinking cap to match wits with the pilot that lets himself be outnumbered by paper ships while ignoring the wealth of intel on the local communication line.
Since you already ignore local, move to wspace where watching local is useless and ignoring your sensor data gets you killed anyway. On second thought, you could fit a cloak and beat them at their own game by cloaking every time someone pops up on local. You won already!
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