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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.28 17:55:00 -
[1]
OK this is from Ankhesentapemkah's blog on the CSMs recent visit to Iceland
Quote: Disappointingly enough, CCP does not want to commit to a UI overhaul.
No UI overhaul? WTF you're kidding right
Quote: Unfortunately, the CSM heard time and again that CCP simply does not have any resources to commit to anything. This frustrated the CSM, which said that some of the issues have been brought up by every CSM to date (Corp Roles review, Alliances in FW), and were not closer to being addressed than they were two years ago. CCP developers said that many of their own issues have not made it in-game either and called the CSM to be realistic. The CSM openly questioned their purpose at this point, as they said there was little point in raising player issues if they were never going to get addressed, no matter how small they were or how highly they prioritized them, as CCP would just run off doing its own thing.
Holy **** just finish up the CSM and be done with it. They can only be effective when CCP actually consider Eve a priority.
Read the rest at her blog, it's a fckin sad state of affairs imo
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Belid Hagen
Shade. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:01:00 -
[2]
You do know that whenever Ankhesentapemkah says "CSM" she means herself. From everything I have heard from other members of the CSM, she is on her own crusade, determined not to cooperate with either CSM or CCP devs, nor willing to compromise.
Stomping your feet, and demanding everyone do what you want them to do is no way to get anything done. Especially when you are a volunteer advisor.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:02:00 -
[3]
If other CSM members post on their own blogs to collaborate her story, this would get more traction.
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:04:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Belid Hagen You do know that whenever Ankhesentapemkah says "CSM" she means herself. From everything I have heard from other members of the CSM, she is on her own crusade, determined not to cooperate with either CSM or CCP devs, nor willing to compromise.
Stomping your feet, and demanding everyone do what you want them to do is no way to get anything done. Especially when you are a volunteer advisor.
Hell I'm not particularly keen on her either - but this has not about her
Quote: The CSM believes that CCP's recent expansions do not meet their very own "Excellence" standards, favoring working on a next expansion before finishing the previous one, as well as ignoring old content that is bugged and broken for years. Unfortunately, Nathan, CCPs producer, became very defensive and attempted to justify CCPs development process. He also said that CCP cannot commit to big issues right now, as a lot of their developers are tied down building Incarna and Dust
If she isn't exaggerating then this is pretty lol
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Masatoshi Hamada
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:26:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Masatoshi Hamada on 28/06/2010 18:27:55 u no that she gets elected every year cos she spam evemail in jita to go for confused carebear voters she say 'vote for me i represent u' n ppl just blindly do it plus all the coverage she gets has made her one of the most popular canidates irregardless even tho if anyone actually sees wat she does i belive that noone in they're right mind would vote for her this is just my opinion but its prob just ppl that dont no about the csm candiates and will vote for whoever gets the msg out their and she does
edit this is thread Linkage
if u see it is obv bigger than any other csm theard wich means she got a lot of coverage + the evemails
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2010.06.28 18:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: JitaBum
Read the rest at her blog, it's a fckin sad state of affairs imo
Good read. Sad, but not unexpected and far from disappointing.
I work for a software company and I do actually develop software. Its "not" easy to re-write things like the UI. Its possible, but everyone that is affected needs to be on board and ready to test the changes that affect their work.
You can't be the expert in everything.
This isn't easy to express to people that don't work in the same field. You just have to do your best to let them know its not feasible when there are more pressing issues on the table.
My experience of transitioning from one interface (it was command line to Windows / Web Front ends) is to offer a 'beta' interface that rides along side the current one.
The current one doesn't get affected, but customers that are brave can start to work on a newly designed front end.
CCP would need to do this in phases. Lots of them. *Reality check* CCP would probably need to assign resources to look into this and expect it to take a year just to collect up and make sense of the suggestions / ideas from customers.
Then when they have a clear idea what it is that they are doing, they can start to create a framework.
Ideally, this will allow them to sort of 'fill in the blanks' as they go. Jig-Saw-puzzle style.
None of this need 'affect' the current UI. It should be 'separate' and definitely not critical to the running of the game. No new buttons to do things you can't currently do. Not a rewiring job, but a 're-envisioning' of the front end.
I'll shut up now, I've got to run some unit tests and I doubt any of this is 'news' to CCP, but I do hope it brings readers a sense of depth and understanding of the process.
Expectations and reality rarely meet, but information can help bridge the void.
NAPS: forcing you to play 'their' game |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2010.06.28 19:34:00 -
[7]
I didn't and don't plan to read her stuff because it's usually garbage. However those highlights seem to clash a lot with what I saw posted by other CSM reps. Of course they also didn't talk about specific points citing NDA until minutes are released. From the meeting minutes though alphabet soup was whinging non-stop and this seems like more of the same.
Originally by: CCP Lemur THIS IS GOD: ... IF YOU HAVE ANY MORE REQUESTS I'M AVAILABLE SUNDAY FROM 10:30 TO 12:00 TO RECEIVE YOUR PRAYERS.
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Kyusoath Orillian
Haters Gonna Hate
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Posted - 2010.06.28 19:41:00 -
[8]
so at least one of the CSM is not a raging CCP fanboy. and its unsurprising that CCP are pretty much going after the easy money now. unfinished rushed expansions and no time to commit to doing anything thats actually wanted and needed because they are making a ****ing console FP$ and this avatar **** that no doubt will be half done once they get into doing another stupid money spinning tacked on 'feature'.
no UI overhaul. pathetic, plenty of time and money to do a console fps from the ground up but not even some simple tweaks to the actual games UI.
nothing has convinced me more that CCP are just in it for the money now.
i pray that one of these upcoming mmos is decent, tho i fear they will be worse still.
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Barakkus
Spacelane Innovation
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:07:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Barakkus on 28/06/2010 20:07:19
Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian
i pray that one of these upcoming mmos is decent, tho i fear they will be worse still.
No one is really releasing any MMOs that are worth jack anymore. They've all been kinda flops over the last 5 years due to being rushed and super-unfinished. The Old Republic (starwars) MMO that's been in the works for a few years looks promising, but I have a feeling it will end up getting rushed out the door due to budgetary concerns and the amount of time/money they've already spent on it, which is the reason so many recent mmos suck...they over-run their budgets trying to make it and have to just get it out there to start getting some type of income from somewhere...
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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dexington
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:10:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian no UI overhaul. pathetic, plenty of time and money to do a console fps from the ground up but not even some simple tweaks to the actual games UI.
It seems naive to think a non-profit project like redoing the ui will get a high priority, it's the kinda of task that never leaves the backlog. It's almost always new functionality over rework, often even new functionality over anything except critical and major bug fixes.
One thing i've learned from working with software design and development, the customers are going to demand alot of unrealistic changes, and ever so often they demand changes they don't even want when they get them. Don't change anything before you know without any doubt the change will satisfy the customers needs, else you risk being right back where you stated. At the end of the day it's all about making money and keeping the business running, it's not good business doing rework which again needs to be reworked.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:22:00 -
[11]
Now I know where she got the votes from. All the malcontents and crybabies voted for her. -------- All I want is a better mankind.
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Musical Fist
Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:27:00 -
[12]
Lets ignore Ankh for a moment (not that anyone does anything different) have a look at this
CSMs were asked about what they agree and disgree on and what they feel is important.
This was open to everyone now my screenshot sadly only contains a few CSM 'candidates' most picked, compare these two screenshots
Watch List for CSM Candidates and Top 25 Alliances
Red lines represent NAPs to NC, please note United Front Alliance are part of NC, meaning there should be 11 lines.
For the slow or NC Damage Control police I will explain a bit about what I have been doing, it no surprise to anyone that I am bitter / mad about NAPs. Now what I find confusing is the 'importance of getting rid of blobs' has been avoided for several years yet has always been a main focus always at elections so I did some research.
I was pretty shocked when I saw Vuks name on there and was convinced it was a mistake as the leader of NC he should know that his strategy in 0.0 for the past 5 years has been to NAP everything within 50 jumps ultimately making the coalition which was only 30k in Jan now at 45k, twice as large as any other coalition in the game.
The following CSM candidates won seats and have this as an important thing they wish to look at.
Mynxee - Focused Ankhesentapemkah - Not Focused Korvin - Not Focused Vuk Lau - Focused (Most likely a troll) TeaDaze - Focused Trebor Daehdoow - Focused Sokratesz - Not Focused Mazzilliu - Not Focused T'Amber - Focused Helen Highwater - Not Focused ALPHA12125 - Focused ElvenLord - Not Focused (Another NC Troll)
That means only 2 CSM are not interested in changing blobbing, as for the ones who wish to change it 6 / 12 (50%) have it as an important thing that they wish to look at the others just feel it should be changed.
So I do some more research and find most of the NC are against changing NAPing and blobbing, :SHOCKING: I decided to make threads on this issue and had CSMs quiet, to most of the CSM its understandable.
I contacted certain people within NC who ironically without me saying forwarded all my mails to Vuk, as soon as they found out what I was against, things went from friendly to foul, the NC threatened that they may lose the ability to NAP.
I have decided to mirror NCs strategy now with mass NAPing and blobbing within empire and NPC 0.0 with the help of several corps / alliances, my main priority is to have CCP / CSM focus on this major problem which is growing like a cancer, a problem which 12/14 CSM were happy enough to agree with me on.
This is an on-going project, hopefully I will get some feedback from the CSM on this finally but I dont see that happening, for anyone that isnt in the north or isnt named after a wow dreadlord will understand the major problem mass NAPing / blobbing has caused making 0.0 in effect dead until the next South vs North war (since the north only leave the north to fight disbanded alliances and even then at 10:1 odds)
For more information about this project contact me, NAP Lau or join the channel NAP Coalition
Thats all
TLDR - 45k people napped but against blobbing / NAPing, lol? --
New NAP Coalition campaign started, want to be rich, powerful and elite?
Join 'NAP Coalition' public channel for more info
Bitter / mad, yup sounds about right |
Mr M
Legion of Illuminated Social Rejects
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:29:00 -
[13]
If the CSM is gonna questioned their purpose everytime CCP don't do as they say they won't have time doing anything else. The power in the CSM doesn't lie in that they can decide anything, because they can't. But that they have the ears of CCP.
So stop ****ing whining and get to the next point.
Eve Tribune|EVEgeek|Firebrand Radio |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:35:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 28/06/2010 20:37:14 ankhwhatever is incredibly awful, but imho it's not her at issue here. That Dust and Incarna have drained dev time from EVE so severely is pretty obvious, her statements are just confirmation of what pretty much everyone should have figured out
edit: that said, I figure it can't last forever and if you're approaching I AM QUITTING (for a different game) status you're going to be sorely disappointed everywhere else _____________________ Horrors! Demons in the deep! |
bloody johnroberts
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:47:00 -
[15]
lol would you like some cheese with that whine
so in your great plan we should be attacking everyone and have no naps and never have a stable 0.0 great thinking so 200 gang members are in your eyes supposed to say "hey we wont defend our space lets send a gang of 10"
yep that will work
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Musical Fist
Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:50:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Musical Fist on 28/06/2010 20:52:36
Originally by: bloody johnroberts lol would you like some cheese with that whine
so in your great plan we should be attacking everyone and have no naps and never have a stable 0.0 great thinking so 200 gang members are in your eyes supposed to say "hey we wont defend our space lets send a gang of 10"
yep that will work
Well from what I have shown it appears your leader wants the same thing
Oh and 45k lol the next powerblock in 0.0 is 20k, the very reason people including CSM including Vuk is against NAPing Blobing, some people just have a weird way of showing this.
I think we are beyond hoping the NC will bring anything less than 1500 people, crashing nodes leasts at least 700 NC --
New NAP Coalition campaign started, want to be rich, powerful and elite?
Join 'NAP Coalition' public channel for more info
Bitter / mad, yup sounds about right |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:50:00 -
[17]
So let's seeà what have been given in terms of UI changes?
New fitting/preview screen → "Render jobs", which could potentially be expanded onto a MS FlightSim-style window setup where you can configure multiple viewports and information windows to fit your taste. Could also be used to display information from multiple locations in 3D space (if they can figure out a way to get around the "can only be in one place at any given time" limitaiton) ù aka windows on stations.
New browser → new text/information parser that can be backported into just about every information screen in the game and which could allow for more coherent in-game/out-of-game information sharing. It also provides an eon-old, tried, tested and hardened framework for creating both basic and very complicated UI elements. Basically, it could let almost all text-based screens become HTML/Ajax-based apps. Slap a 40' titanium/wolfram alloy layer of security on it and advanced ù previously in-game only ù functions can be made part of EVEGate.
PI screen → new nodal process control UI that can be backported into similar processing mechanics (notably the whole moon-goo refinery chain). Hell, with some rejiggering, the same metaphor and UI (but with a vastly different underlying mechanic) could be used to control corp roles and the rights inherited from various titles.
Slowly but surely, they're building up a bunch of tools that could potentially make life a lot easier in almost every area. If I remember some old presentation correctly, #2 is of particular importance since one of the main roadblocks for a UI overhaul was that it was based on the same nuts and bolts as the old in-game browser, which wasà ehmà lacking. But that's just it ù adding in these tools one at a time is fairly easy. Completely revamping the UI (and it really needs to be done all at once to remain coherent) is an immense task that requires on the order of a bazillion man hours and an even larger number of iterations of just about every last pixel in the game. It would quite literally be a "no, we're not doing anything this yearà but you'll get a new UI some time between christmas and easter next yearà or soà". ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Belid Hagen
Shade. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.06.28 20:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Musical Fist Lets ignore Ankh for a moment (not that anyone does anything different) have a look at this
CSMs were asked about what they agree and disgree on and what they feel is important.
This was open to everyone now my screenshot sadly only contains a few CSM 'candidates' most picked, compare these two screenshots
Watch List for CSM Candidates and Top 25 Alliances
Red lines represent NAPs to NC, please note United Front Alliance are part of NC, meaning there should be 11 lines.
For the slow or NC Damage Control police I will explain a bit about what I have been doing, it no surprise to anyone that I am bitter / mad about NAPs. Now what I find confusing is the 'importance of getting rid of blobs' has been avoided for several years yet has always been a main focus always at elections so I did some research.
I was pretty shocked when I saw Vuks name on there and was convinced it was a mistake as the leader of NC he should know that his strategy in 0.0 for the past 5 years has been to NAP everything within 50 jumps ultimately making the coalition which was only 30k in Jan now at 45k, twice as large as any other coalition in the game.
The following CSM candidates won seats and have this as an important thing they wish to look at.
Mynxee - Focused Ankhesentapemkah - Not Focused Korvin - Not Focused Vuk Lau - Focused (Most likely a troll) TeaDaze - Focused Trebor Daehdoow - Focused Sokratesz - Not Focused Mazzilliu - Not Focused T'Amber - Focused Helen Highwater - Not Focused ALPHA12125 - Focused ElvenLord - Not Focused (Another NC Troll)
That means only 2 CSM are not interested in changing blobbing, as for the ones who wish to change it 6 / 12 (50%) have it as an important thing that they wish to look at the others just feel it should be changed.
So I do some more research and find most of the NC are against changing NAPing and blobbing, :SHOCKING: I decided to make threads on this issue and had CSMs quiet, to most of the CSM its understandable.
I contacted certain people within NC who ironically without me saying forwarded all my mails to Vuk, as soon as they found out what I was against, things went from friendly to foul, the NC threatened that they may lose the ability to NAP.
I have decided to mirror NCs strategy now with mass NAPing and blobbing within empire and NPC 0.0 with the help of several corps / alliances, my main priority is to have CCP / CSM focus on this major problem which is growing like a cancer, a problem which 12/14 CSM were happy enough to agree with me on.
This is an on-going project, hopefully I will get some feedback from the CSM on this finally but I dont see that happening, for anyone that isnt in the north or isnt named after a wow dreadlord will understand the major problem mass NAPing / blobbing has caused making 0.0 in effect dead until the next South vs North war (since the north only leave the north to fight disbanded alliances and even then at 10:1 odds)
For more information about this project contact me, NAP Lau or join the channel NAP Coalition
Thats all
TLDR - 45k people napped but against blobbing / NAPing, lol?
Believing blobbing is detremental to the game and wanting it removed as THE best tactic for pvp, has nothing to do with how alliances play the game NOW.
most 0.0 alliances absolutely hate blobbing - but when it comes to defending your space, or needing an enemy removed, everyone will absolutely use the best strategy & tactics the game allows. Thinking differently just shows your ignorance.
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Musical Fist
Gallente The Unknown Bar and Pub
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Posted - 2010.06.28 21:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Belid Hagen
Originally by: Musical Fist ...
Believing blobbing is detremental to the game and wanting it removed as THE best tactic for pvp, has nothing to do with how alliances play the game NOW.
most 0.0 alliances absolutely hate blobbing - but when it comes to defending your space, or needing an enemy removed, everyone will absolutely use the best strategy & tactics the game allows. Thinking differently just shows your ignorance.
Is bad troll tbh
Seriously do you have any idea what you just said, first you talk about how alliances agree with me then how alliances are hypocrites and do exactly what they hate then call me ignorant?
Well I did bite so there was some success in your comment, also please quote me where I said people werent allowed to be strategic in 0.0, dont just assume and make up stuff. --
New NAP Coalition campaign started, want to be rich, powerful and elite?
Join 'NAP Coalition' public channel for more info
Bitter / mad, yup sounds about right |
Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.06.28 21:15:00 -
[20]
Originally by: JitaBum Holy **** just finish up the CSM and be done with it.
Anyone who didn't see this coming is ******ed. Anyone who put any faith whatsoever in the CSM Dog & Pony Show to actually accomplish anything is on the short bus.
CSM: The players would really like you to fix X. CCP: We only have Y developers and they're doing something else. CSM: How can we get you to maybe change your priorities? CCP: More wine? I hear the cod is very good tonight.
And you didn't see this coming? Seriously? |
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Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.06.28 21:30:00 -
[21]
An outsider's take on last Thursday and Friday's CSM meetings. Does his report lend credibility to what Ankhelbeiter is saying?
The CSM is a joke as far as I'm concerned. The player members are useful idiots to CCP's PR department. I'd like to see some of them resign outright. I know a few have some integrity and self-respect (Mynxee, I'm looking at you). |
JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.28 22:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 28/06/2010 20:37:14 ankhwhatever is incredibly awful, but imho it's not her at issue here. That Dust and Incarna have drained dev time from EVE so severely is pretty obvious, her statements are just confirmation of what pretty much everyone should have figured out
Exactly the bug fixes and completion of half-arsed features that many people want are not going to be fixed in the immediate future. Plus, the cumbersome UI (to put it mildly) is going to remain into Incarna and beyond. BECAUSE OF DUST
Originally by: Swidgen Edited by: Swidgen on 28/06/2010 21:41:53 Does his report lend credibility to what Ankhelbeiter is saying?
Yes maybe CCP should invest the money for the CSM into Eve development? It appears the CSMs already questionable ability to effect change has been hamstrung completely.
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Barakkus
Spacelane Innovation
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Posted - 2010.06.28 22:06:00 -
[23]
If CCP wants to hire me, I'll fix the UI. Like seriously...
I just need a few months to get familliar and adept with whatever they're programming in...
I'll move to Atlanta though, I don't think I have the cash to make a move to Iceland atm.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
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JitaBum
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.06.30 21:39:00 -
[24]
Massively has now done a bit on the CSM's disapproval
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Isil Rahsen
Gallente Ferrum Superum
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Posted - 2010.06.30 22:00:00 -
[25]
Mynxee's blog contains mostly a corroboration of anklebiters blog in the sense that CCP is putting it's fingers in it's collective ears when it comes to resource allocation (IE: It's all being used for Incarna/DUST), and especially when it comes to accountability to the community.
I think it's only a matter of time before either CCP closes down the CSM or we have some kind of showdown between CCP management and the CSM. Welp
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PirateGorex
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:00:00 -
[26]
When that big volcano in Iceland blows, none of this will matter anyway. You people need to get your priorities straight! |
Gavjack Bunk
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: JitaBum Massively has now done a bit on the CSM's disapproval
I'm sure they'll come up with a few Virtual Web Awards when it's time to slush a little advertising revenue out of ccp.
And the award for "Best Space Based MMO with 'Eve' In The Title" Goes to..... CCPEEEEEEEEEE! -- On planets... nobody can see you macro mining... |
Brolly
Caldari Icarus' Wings
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:34:00 -
[28]
Weird that, y'know, they took on a load of UI peeps. Maybe they were hired to do sound, or make coffee, I dunno.
DUST and incarna are a BIG move for CCP, so logically, that will take priority, y'know?.
Anka face is known for being a drama queen, like so many other forums posters, they should get over them selves. Just because you write on a game forum, does not make you famous or important, just because you have a point of view, don't make you right.
The UI will get an upgrade in the future, probably wont be this year, but at some point it will. CCP wants more subscribers and this will be one of the many things that will change, they will also increase the font size. How do I know, common sense.
Unfortunately, we will have to deal with eve's short comings in the mean time, we have put up with it for 8 years, can't be much longer now
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:41:00 -
[29]
Taken from the above massively article, here is a link to Mynxee's blog post agreeing with much of what Ankh said. I too distrust Ankh in the extreme, but if Mynx and other CSM members are saying the same thing, that's credible to me.
link: http://lifeinlowsec.blogspot.com/2010/06/csm-june-2010-summit-retrospective.html
it ends with this:
Originally by: posted on Myxnee's blog
The simple fact is that CSM simply cannot perform as a stakeholder if CCP will not let us. The question now is whether their top level decision makers can step out of their ivory towers, acknowledge the validity of the emotional link we share with EVE and accept that it is time to put their paying customers at the center of the development equation. I feel this is critical if the company, the brand, the IP, and the game are to succeed in sustainable ways.
The ball is in CCPÆs court. I think we've made it abundantly clear that CSM5 intends to return every half-hearted serve, every sloppy backhand, every uninspired lob with unparalleled intensity for point-set-match.
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Balsak
Minmatar Friends of Bigfoot
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Posted - 2010.07.01 00:31:00 -
[30]
Seems to me that some CSM members think they have a lot more say in what happens to Eve than they really do. The CSM is not there to demand how CCP designs and develops their game. The CSM is there to give properly voiced opinions to CCP outside of the obnoxious whining threadnaughts from childish morons like what happened when CCP decided carriers needed a nerf.
The CSM has the same level of input as the billing department on what CCP does from a game design and company decision standpoint. They have their voice and CCP will take it under consideration, but don't expect to see things done just because the CSM says they want it done.
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