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Zeuth Proxy
Caldari Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2010.10.01 03:35:00 -
[751]
The reason EvE has been doing so well and still around is due to its nature and lack of competition.
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Tal'sung
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Posted - 2010.10.01 03:37:00 -
[752]
Originally by: Zeuth Proxy The reason EvE has been doing so well and still around is due to its nature and lack of competition.
1000+ this
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Reaver Glitterstim
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Posted - 2010.10.01 04:42:00 -
[753]
Originally by: Hesperius
Originally by: CyberGh0st Just give me a good reason to remove them ( as opposed to giving newbies 4/3 and active player the equivalent in SP's ).
Learning skills add no depth to the game. Lets just go ahead and say that they were never added and have you argue to add them. What would you say to sell the idea of adding a single level of basic learning skills and two levels of advanced learning skills to the game?
This.
Originally by: Docile Stoat Edited by: Docile Stoat on 30/09/2010 21:50:23 Awww, QQ at not having a fully loaded character after signing up. And QQ at not being able to grind like WoW to catch up.
Skills etc are perfect the way they are, you are forced to THINK, CHOOSE and SPECIALIZE until such time as you have so many SP it doesn't matter. Go play Farmville and stop crying if you want instant gratification.
I'm a newbie, haven't learned all my learning skills yet. I'm happy that way. I made the compromise where I chose to have skills now instead of more SP later. And my choice made a difference! Please don't take this away from me. I don't know what I'd do without Eve.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.10.01 10:35:00 -
[754]
Originally by: Liang Nuren To me it seems obvious that all this posturing from the older players is just them trying to maintain or get an advantage over the newer players. However, I've got the perfect way to solve this problem. First off, CCP has freely adjusted the starting skills a few times now, without too much backlash. So obviously CCP should just give all new players 5/5s in learning and tell the vets that they can feel free to train the skills if they don't have them yet.
Or they could just do away with them and reimburse skillpoints, but hey I always appreciate an epic troll.
-Liang
If you give new players 5/5 then there is essentially no point in them anymore.
I would not object giving new players 4/3 for free and no compensation for vets, the only major issue I see with that plan is with the not so new newbies that recently finished 4/3 or more learning skills, they would be getting screwed.
On the other hand I have been in that situation before, when I created my main ( or alt don't remember ) I received something like 50k sp and later on newbies got 800k sp, ( I had 2 mill sp by that time I think ). It stinged a bit, but one moves on anyway, now, a few years later, I feel pretty comfortable with my SP's and how the SP system works, and the knowledge I can't catch up anyway, in terms of absolute SP's.
So again, giving 4/3 learning skills to newbies and give the current active players the equivalent SP's as compensation would be the best of both worlds I believe. Furthermore, CCP could make money out of this, they could send reactivation mails around telling people would get a package of free SP's, only available during a certain month.
Either way, between remapping the attributes and the removal of SP's I feel that part of the flavor of EVE is getting erased.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 11:20:00 -
[755]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 01/10/2010 11:25:43
Originally by: CyberGh0st If you give new players 5/5 then there is essentially no point in them anymore.
Was there ever a point in them anyway?
If we started off with max attributes, who would possibly call for removing 70% of it to be able to train them back within 3 months? It's a bit like "you're not allowed to leave your starter faction space unless you train this Rank 2 skill for each other highsec space, a Rank 3 skill for each security level of lowsec and Rank 5 skill to be able to enter nulsec." It's all a bit artificial and overdone.
I'm not 100% against the learning skills though, but just the primary and "Learning" skill itself should be enough. Just make the primary learning skills give +2 to the corresponding attribute for each level, do away with the advanced Rank 3 stuff and we have an agreeable compromise.
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.10.01 13:33:00 -
[756]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Was there ever a point in them anyway?
People were *****ing about learning taking so long?
I heard EVE's getting ported to the xbox, personally I can't wait. --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 13:44:00 -
[757]
The lack of competition for EVE is an interesting point. If CCP ever gets a worthy competitor or two, I'm betting they'll suddenly become far more interested in revamping the rookie experience ù "you can be useful in a Rifter" and "focus your learning plan" notwithstanding.
Then again, it's 2010, going on 2011; every year, it seems, the amount of complete and utter fail in MMO game design gets taken up another notch. There have been so many garbage MMOs recently, I can't even keep track.
EVE is the #1 rated MMO on MMORPG.com, second only to Guild Wars 2, which hasn't even been released yet. So for now, I think CCP is safe with its monopoly... and if Incarna turns out the be awesome, even I will take some time off from complaining bitterly in the forum.
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2010.10.01 14:05:00 -
[758]
It's fine how it is. Leave the learning skills in game.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 14:14:00 -
[759]
It's not fine how it is. Delete learning skills.
See how easy that is? This thread can be summed up very succintly:
NUH-UH
UH-HUH
NUH-UH
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Verdon Teraskun
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Posted - 2010.10.01 21:24:00 -
[760]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph It's not fine how it is. Delete learning skills.
See how easy that is? This thread can be summed up very succintly:
NUH-UH
UH-HUH
NUH-UH
UH-HUH
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:25:00 -
[761]
Why is this thread still alive? It's based on pure speculation with no basis in fact.
Also, if there were no learning skills. Tell me, what is the point in having attributes at all? People would spec one toon with int mem, another with Mem int, and another with per int, and just train on all three, one at a time.
So while your at it you might as well just remove attributes, because in the post learning skill world they are meaningless.
Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:28:00 -
[762]
Originally by: Culmen Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade.
I don't always fear change.
But when I do, I use hyperbole.
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:29:00 -
[763]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Originally by: Culmen Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade.
I don't always fear change.
But when I do, I use hyperbole.
There's a big difference between fearing change and hating stupidity. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:33:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Culmen There's a big difference between fearing change and hating stupidity.
There's a big difference between a logical argument and sarcastic overexaggeration devoid of any merit.
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:34:00 -
[765]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
Originally by: Culmen There's a big difference between fearing change and hating stupidity.
There's a big difference between a logical argument and sarcastic overexaggeration devoid of any merit.
I would suggest you actually make a logical argument rather then comment on sarcasm.
You know, refute a point, show inconsistencies, etc, etc. and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:00:00 -
[766]
Originally by: Culmen Why is this thread still alive? It's based on pure speculation with no basis in fact.
Because CCP is removing learning skills. It is based on their actions (adding the SP pool functionality) and what CCP Soundwave said at Fan Fest.
After this happens, if it really makes Eve as unplayable as you think, you can go make a thread about how you are leaving Eve.
From someone who got learning skills out of the way a long time ago, learning skills are kinda like an ugly wart. There isn't much to argue about it. Its an ugly and I want it to go away. I would rather put that SP into something fun.
Learning skills for new players, sure you don't have to train them before anything else, but like breathing air you are much better off if you do.
Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:15:00 -
[767]
Edited by: Orange Lagomorph on 01/10/2010 23:17:29
Originally by: Culmen I would suggest you actually make a logical argument rather then comment on sarcasm.
Plenty of logical arguments have been made. You've simply ignored them, or dismissed and belittled them with hyperbole.
If CCP deletes learning skills, revamps the system (so that only remapping and implants affect attributes), and refunds spent SP to older players, how will that affect you? Other than a 2-8m SP surplus, that is?
You're playing the part of Chicken Little: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" It's ludicrous.
The reason bittervets are so opposed to removal of learning skills is because they believe EVE is a fraternity house, and that new players should suffer through every bad design implementation and outdated mechanic until the end of time. If not, a terrible and insulting injustice is surely being done to the long-suffering people who "put their time in."
Grow up.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:16:00 -
[768]
Edited by: Arakash Mond on 01/10/2010 23:19:06
Quote: After this happens, if it really makes Eve as unplayable as you think, you can go make a thread about how you are leaving Eve.
Or we could live in reality and have the learning skill haters start putting their money where their mouths are and start making posts as to why they're quitting eve because learning skills make it so unplayable.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:23:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Culmen Also, if there were no learning skills. Heck you might as well remove skills, fittings and release eve for x-box live arcade.
That's the same logic as: "Also, if there was no hamburgers. Heck you might as well remove drinks, vegetables, bread and put everyone on intervenal tube feeding." a.k.a. no logic at all
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:24:00 -
[770]
Originally by: Arakash Mond Or we could live in reality and have the learning skill haters start putting their money where their mouths are and start making posts as to why they're quitting eve because learning skills make it so unplayable.
But none of us think that.
I noticed you avoided quoting this part of what I said: Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
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Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:27:00 -
[771]
Also, if there is no spoon. Heck, you might as well remove forks, silverware, chopsticks and have everyone eat with their hands.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:28:00 -
[772]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph Also, if there is no spoon. Heck, you might as well remove forks, silverware, chopsticks and have everyone eat with their hands.
Why eat?
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:34:00 -
[773]
Edited by: Arakash Mond on 01/10/2010 23:35:49
Quote: But none of us think that.
Then what are you complaining about?
Quote: I noticed you avoided quoting this part of what I said: Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
Wouldn't that sort of be like arguing why isn't the king the most pwerful piece on the chessboard rather than the queen? I think what bugs me the most about you learning skill haters is the inherent deceit in your complaints. Bottom line is you have a problem with how long it takes to train skills period. You just perceive learning skills as more vulnerable to attack than say all level 5 skills. If you would simply say it takes too long to skill up it would make it alot easier to have a rational argument with you. Because what you are really complaining about are the inherent basics of the game.
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Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:43:00 -
[774]
Sorry man, but I was never complaining. Based on the actions we have seen and what CCP has said many times in the past, a little logic would tell you learning skills are on their way out.
So, now is your chance to look at your character sheet, look at your learning skill count, and really think if you would would not rather have those points allocated somewhere else. If you really feel so strong about what those skills bring to your Eve online experience every time you log in, this is your chance to hold an unbreakable argument to save them... ready, go!
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:45:00 -
[775]
Originally by: Arakash Mond
Quote: I noticed you avoided quoting this part of what I said: Now, I really challenge anyone to make an argument to add learning skills as if they were never introduced.
Wouldn't that sort of be like arguing why isn't the king the most powerful piece on the chessboard rather than the queen?
That's an invalid comparison. The question should be: "if chess didn't have a queen, what would be the added value of introducing one?" The answer, as you may have guessed, is a little different from the ansewr to the question "what would be the added value of introducing learning skills in EVE if they didn't exist now".
Quote: Bottom line is you have a problem with how long it takes to train skills period. You just perceive learning skills as more vulnerable to attack than say all level 5 skills. If you would simply say it takes too long to skill up it would make it alot easier to have a rational argument with you.
I admit that I find skilltraining too slow, but I can live with that (no game is perfect). But for the learning skills there¦s also the argument of scaring new players away and the non existent added value of learning skills compared to all the other skills. And so on, you can read 26 pages with imo good argiments against learning skills.
Quote: Because what you are really complaining about are the inherent basics of the game.
Well how would the fundaments of EVE be overthrown if there weren't learning skills and everyone just started off with +10 attributes? Once you have learned them you never think about them anymore anyway, they have zero impact on the actual gameplay experience at all.
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Arakash Mond
Amarr Kings In The Back Row
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:48:00 -
[776]
Quote: I think removing learning skills would be acceptable if you also removed the benefits you get from training them. If learning skills go then so do those extra 10 attribute points.
That's my argument right there. If you get rid of the skills you should get rid of the benefits they provide also. It's only logical. So to keep those extra attribute points we ought to keep the skill training that provides them.
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Jennifer Starling
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:50:00 -
[777]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 01/10/2010 23:56:40
Originally by: Arakash Mond
Quote: I think removing learning skills would be acceptable if you also removed the benefits you get from training them. If learning skills go then so do those extra 10 attribute points.
That's my argument right there. If you get rid of the skills you should get rid of the benefits they provide also. It's only logical. So to keep those extra attribute points we ought to keep the skill training that provides them.
Excellent idea. Lets's see how many new subscribers EVE gets.
And as we're at it, let's also remove all the SP the current players got from the learning skills. Say byebye to 70% of your SP tally.
Lets's see how many existing subscribers EVE loses. I'm all for it! Do it now CCP!
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:54:00 -
[778]
Edited by: Sig Sour on 01/10/2010 23:55:28 nooo! IM SCARED OF CHANGE!
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.10.02 00:40:00 -
[779]
Originally by: Orange Lagomorph
The reason bittervets are so opposed to removal of learning skills is because *snip*
Or... maybe the "bittervets" are simply the kinds of people who never give up something without getting something in return? Why would anyone in a position of power or advantage give up that advantage for no gain or consideration?
I'm not judging, I'm just pointing out that what's obvious/smart/right to one person is seen as inconceivable/stupid/wrong to another. Which means that what you think are good arguments/points will be seen as completely boneheaded/wrong. It may be a good idea to provide logic that appeals to your opponent's personality/world_viewpoint.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Ehgrimm
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Posted - 2010.10.02 01:29:00 -
[780]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Or... maybe the "bittervets" are simply the kinds of people who never give up something without getting something in return? Why would anyone in a position of power or advantage give up that advantage for no gain or consideration?
I'm not judging, I'm just pointing out that what's obvious/smart/right to one person is seen as inconceivable/stupid/wrong to another. Which means that what you think are good arguments/points will be seen as completely boneheaded/wrong. It may be a good idea to provide logic that appeals to your opponent's personality/world_viewpoint.
You will get something in return, all of that SP you put into Learning will be refunded. Seriously what is there for people to hold on to? Learning skills are a stupid and outdated mechanic. Remove them, refund SP, profit.
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